THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE PARTITION OF PALESTINE (ORE 55)

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Re: Coupla' things

Postby Jeff » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:38 pm

chlamor wrote:Why Jews only get included in the definition of anti-Semitism I don't know. Maybe to avoid the notion that Jews can be anti-Semitic toward Arabs.


My understanding is that the term "Semite" is a Western European racial classification derived from "Son of Shem," and that peoples classified as "Semites" would be unlikely to adopt the term to describe themselves. "Anti-Semite" came to mean "anti-Jew" because the Semites of Western Europe were almost entirely Jewish.

chlamor wrote:One last point. Zionist IS often used to mean Jew. This is incorrect of course. However what is more often the case is that the split second anyone attacks Zionism or the State of Israel the scream "Anti-Semite" comes from all corridors.


I invite every member to monitor our own corridors, and see if we can avoid conflating categories, and avoid using Zionist or Israel as code for Jew.

I also want to remind members to evaluate sources, using their best judgement and consideration of the guidelines of this forum, before cutting and pasting or posting links.
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Postby Dreams End » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:40 pm

chlamor,

I think I made clear, for example, regarding the 28 quotes post that, though I strongly disagree with the point of view and also find that many of the quotes are out of context, etc, that that thread didn't deserve firepitting.

However, the fact that you used that poster and the IHR link shows not that you are a Nazi but that you haven't managed to sort out the tangled web of rightwing propaganda yourself. Well...plus folks were whining about how PSU is a "hate site" while ignoring links to real hate sites. We consistently get people here posting from sites so much worse than what was even alleged about PSU that it's really laughable to hear them whining about that.

And by the way, I posted there under the Dream's End name and also linked to there from my current blog post. So none of that was done in secret...just for the record.

You are a fascinating mix, chlamor, I have to say. I've read and written rather extensively about the intersection of rightwing and new age as well as the confluence of far right and far left forces on my blog.

What's fascinating is that within all that dark and murky ideology that you have discovered lurking 'neath the pastel colors of the New Age, there is almost always a "special" role for the Jews. In fact, as you certainly know, if you follow the line from Blavatsky you get to the Thule society etc and the very basis of Nazi "theology" for lack of a better word.

And the Nazis, as you know, based many of their actions both on this sort of spiritualized racism as well as conspiracy theories about Jewish domination of the planet. And even Hitler often used "Zionist" when talking of Judaism.

The history is very clear, and you are also fully aware that, while you yourself disavow the idea that Israel runs the U.S. and, thereby, much of the world (in the Madsen thread you suggested the U.S. was the "alpha symbiote"), that many theories about "zionism" including on the left, suggest just that...that Israel controls the U.S. I just watched Ray McGovern say exactly that on a youtube video...U.S. is Gulliver tied down by Lilliputian Israelis or some such nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvZkl8l6k7g

(Dear anti-war movement: what part of "CIA" don't you understand?)

So what baffles me is not that you continue to hold anti-Zionist views, but that you seem to completely ignore the history of Jewish conspiracy theory. It doesn't make your views wrong...but when Jeff, for example, tries to make this distinction, you don't want to give any ground at all to him on this. His attempt to untangle the anti-Semite theory (and I'm sorry...that has come into conventional usage as any dictionary will tell you) from what he sees as simply criticism of Israel are met by you as if he is ending all discussion on the subject.

How often, and with no sense of irony, have threads gone on for pages and pages about how discussion of "Israel" isn't allowed on this forum. And if you look at threads like the 28 quotes you'll see that, in fact, it's usually just me who's complaining unless it spills over into overt anti-Semitism like yesferatu's rabbi picture. There are a number of threads where there are several "anti-zionists" and then me. Not saying this seeking pity...this is just a freaking discussion board after all...but to point out that there's really very little barrier to this material getting presented, though I wish people would search the archives so we don't have the exact same quotes and articles and arguments repeated as if they were something new.

MEANWHILE, people here really ARE posting pictures of someone or other standing with rabbis as if that proves anything. They ARE linking to Stormfront and Jewish Tribal Review. And in the past many other such sites have been brought in, such as "judicial-inc.biz" and others. Does it really hurt your position that much to acknowledge that there's a LOT of anti-Jewish garbage out there cluttering up a variety of topics of importance to this site?

It's a game that's been going on a long time. Put up an argument that "Zionists" run the world...get called on it...then retreat into the "oh, so now we can't criticize Israel?" fallback position.

I'll be honest, the only reason I come back around is on this topic is to provoke such posters into revealing the true extent of their belief system. I poke a little and tempers flare and then things get said which allow lurkers and other posters and especially Jeff to see what is so often really underneath the shifting definition of the term "Zionist." Then we get a little bit of a "market correction" so to speak and I think this helps preserve the integrity of this site which looks into stuff that is so often discredited by association with such garbage.

I'm not as good at it as another poster who was here for a short while, but it seems to work. Over and over again.

This is NOT what I think you are about, chlamor. But I do think it is dishonest of you to pretend like this sort of thinking is not prevalent...especially given your understanding of the whole Nazi new age connection. I find myself scrupulously trying to assure that my own writing about, MKULTRA say, is free of the taint of this kind of "blood libel" material, despite how much of it clutters the "mind control" literature. I would think that, in order to advance your perspective, you'd want to do the same with your own position...to draw clear lines, to acknowledge the harm that has been done in the name of "anti-Zionism" while pointing out whatever distinctions differentiate your own position from that garbage. So when you complain about Jeff's actions without acknowledging some of the posts that have occurred, it undermines your own credibility.

What I think about you...and I know you don't care but to explain my position...is that you drink from the same poison well...not that you are the poisoner. The link to Madsen for example. Madsen has come to be accepted by many on the left. He gets published at Counterpunch, but he peddles a lot of the same Larouchian garbage I'm talking about. I use Larouchian here loosely. Larouche is part of but not the entirety of, the sort of movement that is allying the left with ultra-nationalist rightwingers.

(this is not entirely new, by the way. Significant sectors of the fascist right were always admirers of Stalin, for example. They saw him primarily as a nationalist, and since some of the famous "purgees" in Russia were Jewish, they were even more enamored. Much of this history is covered in the bio of Francis Parker Yockey by Kevin Coogan called "Dreamer of the day". Summary can be read here:

http://ftrsummary.blogspot.com/2007/06/ ... oogan.html

Much of this hybrid is termed "third positionism" but my own view on that I've made very clear. Red plus Brown equals Brown.)

Speaking of Madsen, I will never understand the logic of "Yeah, he gets a lot of stuff wrong and exaggerates a lot, but that doesn't mean everything he says is wrong."

Yeah...and that champagne you have in front of you is only 10% horse piss. Bottoms up!


But despite not thinking you are some actual Nazi, I think it is still important to push back when people are inviting other people to drink from that poison well. You don't see that this is true of you, so you won't be real happy about it, nor will the other folks here who drink from it.

Look at that graphic up above. Look at how yesferatu can't seem to understand how bizarre it is to suggest I was criticizing the site for its anti-Zionist stand when its very masthead screams Jew this and Jew that, with the word "Zionist" only even showing up once.

You need to take an honest look at your fellow travelers. Many of them are not who they seem. If you come to RI you entering the waters of "deep politics."

I think you need swimming lessons.
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Postby yesferatu » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:42 pm

Dreams End wrote:I think you need swimming lessons.


Since you mentioned me again (while addressing chlamor) in your bullshit way you do, I am going to comment.

You want to keep framing our anti-Zionism as an outgrowth of the hate groups' use of zionist conspiracy to describe a fanciful world domination plot. Would you finally get over it? Rational anti-Zionists are discussing ZIONISM: the psychotic zealotry that intends to occupy and re-take ALL of the "holy land" by any means.

THAT is what I discuss. Like Jeff, you want to point at 100 other things and say we REALLY want to discuss those things. Like "world bank" "rothchild" shit.

I am discussing PALESTINE.
wtf are you discussing??

As far as I can tell, none of the b.s topics you alluded to above were mentioned by chlamor. And I KNOW they were never mentioned by me.
You want me to stop saying zionist, zionism, and noting zionists in power whose history and agendas are conspiratorial.

I really don't care how often you run that bullshit flag up the pole, I ain't saluting it. I hope no one else does.
Last edited by yesferatu on Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby yesferatu » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:45 pm

double post
Last edited by yesferatu on Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:52 pm

yesferatu wrote:

I am discussing PALESTINE.
wtf are you discussing??




Thanks yesteratu, that's kinda why I posted the op


THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE PARTITION OF PALESTINE


I'm wondering who is the one that really needs the swimming lessons?
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Postby Dreams End » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:29 pm

yesferatu said
You want to keep framing our anti-Zionism as an outgrowth of the hate groups' use of zionist conspiracy to describe a fanciful world domination plot. Would you finally get over it? Rational anti-Zionists are discussing ZIONISM: the psychotic zealotry that intends to occupy and re-take ALL of the "holy land" by any means.

You really don't get to keep claiming that when you

1. posted a picture of someone posing with rabbis. Not "zionist activists". Rabbis.

2. You linked to "Jewish Tribal Review" and then failed to understand why, even though the masthead says "Jews" several times and "Zionist" only once, we might think this site was anti-Jewish and not just "anti-Zionist".

Since people seem to have a little trouble focusing, and to make sure slad sees it, here again is the masthead. Now slad, since you jumped in to support yesferatu, you tell me how this graphic is just about Zionism and not about Jews:

Image

And yesferatu is doing exactly what I said always happens. He links to a site that tracks the nefarious doings of the "jewish tribes" and then when he gets nailed for it, wants to say he was discussing "palestine".

The fucking headline of the site is:
This Week's Jewish News


I click on that link, anxious to find out what the JEWS are up to, and though I am sad to see they are on hiatus for the summer, I come upon this graphic:

Image

Here are a couple more from the site yesferatu linked to and which we are supposed to assume is actually only about Zionists.
Image

Image

I'd post articles, too, but you won't read them.

Explain, please, slad, why you support this kind of garbage, or, if you don't, why you won't condemn it. Why do you whine about one comment on PSU but when yesferatu posts articles from JTR you don't have a problem with it. It was his article...I didn't bring that site up. I just pointed out what anyone with half a brain would notice...a site called "Jewish Tribal Review" is about Jews.

Thanks yesteratu, that's kinda why I posted the op


THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE PARTITION OF PALESTINE


I'm wondering who is the one that really needs the swimming lessons?



And I responded in great detail. I used only quotes from the document you provided and showed a variety of ways it undercut some of the anti-zionist claims. And your response?

A bunch of pictures and some song lyrics or some shit.

The problem is that you and yesferatu have so little ability to put together a coherent argument of your own that when your copy and paste jobs actually get some scrutiny you don't know how to respond.

But keep going. The longer you keep this up, the clearer your position becomes. It's your hole. keep digging.
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Postby brownzeroed » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:48 pm

Yesferatu:
You want to keep framing our anti-Zionism as an outgrowth of the hate groups' use of zionist conspiracy to describe a fanciful world domination plot. Would you finally get over it? Rational anti-Zionists are discussing ZIONISM: the psychotic zealotry that intends to occupy and re-take ALL of the "holy land" by any means.


This argument would carry more water if you didn't consistently and almost solely link and paste from articles produced and funded by hate groups, neo-fascist Willis Carto Clones, John Birch Society rejects, holocaust revisionists and Liberty Lobby cooks like the Jewish Tribal Review, Stormfront, American Free Press, etc.

This is hardly accidental.

And yes, I know what I'm saying.
I'll say it again. This no accident. Ban me if necessary. At this point, I'm embarrassed to even refer folks to this board because of garbage, like this. No bullshit. They take one look at a thread like this and walk away. Maybe, I'm alone on this. I doubt it. But if this is the case, I'll kindly make my way North. This well is getting poisoned.
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Postby streeb » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:00 pm

brownzeroed wrote:

Maybe, I'm alone on this


You're not, BZ.
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The sickness

Postby chlamor » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:42 pm

So what baffles me is not that you continue to hold anti-Zionist views, but that you seem to completely ignore the history of Jewish conspiracy theory. It doesn't make your views wrong...but when Jeff, for example, tries to make this distinction, you don't want to give any ground at all to him on this. His attempt to untangle the anti-Semite theory (and I'm sorry...that has come into conventional usage as any dictionary will tell you) from what he sees as simply criticism of Israel are met by you as if he is ending all discussion on the subject.


Certainly anyone who would read all of this nonsense would agree that you have incredibly poor reading/analytic skills. Your entire piece is based on make-believe. I will just point out this one example in the above paragraph to avoid a lengthy exposition on your whack-job writing in that last post.

So I completely ignore the history of Jewish conspiracy theory? Where do you get this? Interesting in that I haven't even seen a thread dedicated to that idea open for discussion and if it's there I haven't participated, because I haven't seen it. Of course I spoke directly about the absurdity of the "Jewish Banker ruling world" rubbish as you know but ignore that for the moment.

To be quite honest with ya' it's just not very high on my radar screen. What rates way beyond that to any sensible person is The US military machine, looming fascist State, institutional racism, homelessness, children of The Congo, global warming, peak oil and on and on and on.

Oh yeah and Palestine? What was this thread about anyway? Good thing the subject has been shifted. Standard fare and tedious.

Once again in a small place in a not so far away land the people of Palestine have become invisible as the attentions have been purposefully turned to Israel and her plight. It is a sickness. A very deep pathology.

As for the context thingie on the 28 comments I was beginning to do so but was unable to finish, or even get started on, the task.

Just for comparison consider that an ad featured at DU takes you right here:

Buy the Left

Osama bin Laden introduced a wonderful concept into modern politics: seed money. Al Qaeda gives small money, support, and training to many groups, and some of them bear rich fruits. The concept of seed money allowed Osama to build a large following with moderate funds. Israel can do likewise, financing responsible charity NGOs in Africa, human rights groups’ operations in Muslim countries, global warming anti-oil pseudo-scientists, academics who develop ridiculous political treatises, and grassroots movements many of them merely need a hundred computers. Even a small state like Israel has resources incomparably larger to the financing available to NGOs, and can buy them off. If the money runs short, run a Ponzi scheme for Saudi princeling investors.

Israel cannot afford a simple equal-handedness of leftists. When human rights watchdogs criticize both Israel and Hamas, Hamas doesn’t care. Westerners also discount the criticism of terrorists and barbarians, and only hear condemnations of Israel. Israel cannot accept even-handed treatment, but needs positive evaluation from influential human rights groups.

Some leftist programs are worthwhile. Introduce a 0.5-1% tax on Jeffrey Sachs’ prescription to finance the most basic food and health programs in Africa. For a billion dollars per year, NGOs will have to sing praises to Israel - and dance her line. That money will also buy goodwill in anti-Muslim African countries, following Israeli traditional peripheral approach of engaging Africa. The aid might even pay for itself by strengthening Israeli ties with resource-rich African countries.

The Torah speaks of charity strictly to neighbors, though the rabbis expanded the use of charity funds to resident aliens and travelers. An obligation of helping Africans, however, is clearly deducible from the Torah. Recall the commandment to help one’s enemy to unload his donkey fallen under the burden. The idea is of disproportional effect: a minor effort ends enmity. Minimal aid to Africans has similar disproportional effect. The world wasted half a trillion dollars in Africa in the recent decades because the aid was stolen or spent on ambitious rather than emergency programs. Jewish Diaspora organizations send money to Africa with similar wastefulness. The solution is to stop giving the Africans money, which they misuse or steal, anyway. Send them cheap antibiotics and malaria treatments to save a life at below $1. Give them insecticide-treated bed nets. Send Israeli planes to spray DDT on malaria-ridden swamps. Send them only protein-rich soy flour, not any other food; mind the delivery cost per calories.
Black Africans are backward and cannot form viable nations. They lack a culture of learning and work ethics. Even so, they need not die twenty thousands a day from hunger and malaria. They won’t develop an Israeli-level agriculture, but even a basic form of modern agriculture will alleviate the pressure of overpopulation. There is no equality.

Israelis, Americans, or Europeans have no business of bettering lives in Africa, but saving those lives cheaply is a valid humanitarian goal.

http://samsonblinded.org/blog/buy-the-left.htm


Pretty sickening huh?
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Postby Dreams End » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:57 pm

So I completely ignore the history of Jewish conspiracy theory? Where do you get this? Interesting in that I haven't even seen a thread dedicated to that idea open for discussion and if it's there I haven't participated, because I haven't seen it. Of course I spoke directly about the absurdity of the "Jewish Banker ruling world" rubbish as you know but ignore that for the moment.


Number one...why don't you just look up a few posts. Plenty of room for comment there.

But I was mainly talking about when Jeff said it was exactly those sorts of theories he was trying to chase off. Your responses don't grant that there is any validity in that notion. And look up if you doubt that this stuff permeates this board.

Meanwhile, if you say that you are knowledgeable about the new age fascist stuff and yet don't have it on your "radar screen" then I guess you aren't really getting the new age fascist stuff after all. My point is that it permeates the very topic you suggest you know something about.
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Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:49 pm

Well it seems I'm not the only one that takes offense to the accusation of being an anti-Semite


http://www.am1090seattle.com/pages/582254.php



Just remember who high jacked this thread by posting this, Why did you post this Dreams End WHY??? Had I posted ANYTHING to deserve that?

Did I post that picture? Was I posting in the thread where that picture was posted?

Sorry. I saw a bunch of text in those pictures and read it. Was I not supposed to?

It's your thread...you can post whatever pictures you want. How about this one, just in from Democratic Underground (though it was removed by mods after a couple of hours.)



Image
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Rising tide of ignorance

Postby chlamor » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:11 pm

Dreams End wrote:
So I completely ignore the history of Jewish conspiracy theory? Where do you get this? Interesting in that I haven't even seen a thread dedicated to that idea open for discussion and if it's there I haven't participated, because I haven't seen it. Of course I spoke directly about the absurdity of the "Jewish Banker ruling world" rubbish as you know but ignore that for the moment.


Number one...why don't you just look up a few posts. Plenty of room for comment there.

But I was mainly talking about when Jeff said it was exactly those sorts of theories he was trying to chase off. Your responses don't grant that there is any validity in that notion. And look up if you doubt that this stuff permeates this board.

Meanwhile, if you say that you are knowledgeable about the new age fascist stuff and yet don't have it on your "radar screen" then I guess you aren't really getting the new age fascist stuff after all. My point is that it permeates the very topic you suggest you know something about.


There is nothing that can deter you from your narrow and twisted machinations.

Good luck with that.

Suffer the children. You are a petty fool.

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Postby yesferatu » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:17 pm

Thanks for showing me that stuff, DE. Like I said, I will certainly make note of where they are coming from.
You do know this is the internet...I visited stormfront once, and have never been back. I stumbled upon the quote page, then yesterday went to their main page, and had some suspicions, obviously. But it is not a crime yet for me to look. And educate myself. Of course "Jewish Tribal" as a name is a bit much. I never caught those graphics...glad you did.

But unlike you, it is not my mission to keep a watchlist of anti-semitic sites. If that's your thing, good for you. But that is where it ends. From being a compiler, your position stops there....you are NOT allowed to be MY censor. Can you understand that. You are NOT allowed to berate me for looking. Do you understand that?

There is NO irony in calling your self-anointed censorship role that of Inquisitor. Roles change. No irony at all....nor ironically "rich". Unless you are too smug to know that people often become what they hate.

I won't apologize for stumbling upon that quote page. I still like the quote page FOR ITS CONTENT, and you can pout all you want at my unrepentance for that. YOU ARE NOT MY CENSOR.

Everytime I get into it with you on a thread I feel like fucking Patrick McGoohan in the fucking Village. YOU ARE NOT MY CENSOR. I AM NOT A NUMBER!

Well number 2, er, I mean DE, be seein' ya.

edit for bz:

brownzeroed wrote:Yesferatu:
You want to keep framing our anti-Zionism as an outgrowth of the hate groups' use of zionist conspiracy to describe a fanciful world domination plot. Would you finally get over it? Rational anti-Zionists are discussing ZIONISM: the psychotic zealotry that intends to occupy and re-take ALL of the "holy land" by any means.


This argument would carry more water if you didn't consistently and almost solely link and paste from articles produced and funded by hate groups, neo-fascist Willis Carto Clones, John Birch Society rejects, holocaust revisionists and Liberty Lobby cooks like the Jewish Tribal Review, Stormfront, American Free Press, etc.


You give me your approved anti-zionist sites and I will exclusively use them. I mean it.
I'm no Patrick McGoohan. You guys have broken me. Life is good in The Village.
Please send me the list of approved sites. And yes. I am being totally serious.

This is hardly accidental.
And yes, I know what I'm saying.
I'll say it again. This no accident. Ban me if necessary.


Don't ban! Nooooo. We need Oracles like in Minority Report.
Or wait, no, let me go with my previous analogy: DE is Number Two, and you are the howling white balloon.

You are right about it being no accident...the internet IS no accident. Information apocalypse is upon us! Far too much access to information...from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil thou shalt not.....

Brother. What drama. Can you end this so this thread does not get fire-pitted? Really, just let your righteousness shine elsewhere for a little while okay? Btw, your righteousness sure feels like heat rather than light.

I'm just saying is all....
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