28 Quotes

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28 Quotes

Postby chlamor » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:10 pm

1) "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

2) "We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

3) "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

4) "The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

5) "(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

6) "There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

7) "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

8- "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

9) "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

10) "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

11) "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

12) "Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

13) "This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

14) "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

15) " create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

16) " are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

17) "The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

18- "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

19) "The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

20) "Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

21) "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

22) "If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

23) "I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

24) "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

25) "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

26) "Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

27) “I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
— Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon

28- “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
— Rabbi Yaacov Perrin (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6)
Last edited by chlamor on Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby brownzeroed » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:26 pm

"All I know is just what I read in the papers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."
"Get someone else to blow your horn and the sound will carry twice as far."
-Will Rogers

"Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim."
"To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom."
-Bertrand Russell

"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth."
-Otto von Bismarck

"To subject one set of people to the category of racism and genocide neglects a common understanding of mankind, itself."
-Ironicus Applebaum
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worth repeating

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:28 pm

"To subject one set of people to the category of racism and genocide neglects a common understanding of mankind, itself."
-Ironicus Applebaum
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Postby Dreams End » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:27 pm

Is there any chance, chlamor, that you will save me the trouble and verify these yourselves and then repost the ones you can verify? Just list the numbers of the ones you personally feel confident, given your vast research and knowledge of Zionism, are accurate quotes.

Not that we don't enjoy your long cut and paste jobs.
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Do your own research

Postby chlamor » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:39 pm

Dreams End wrote:Is there any chance, chlamor, that you will save me the trouble and verify these yourselves and then repost the ones you can verify? Just list the numbers of the ones you personally feel confident, given your vast research and knowledge of Zionism, are accurate quotes.

Not that we don't enjoy your long cut and paste jobs.


But thanks for the honor of starting a thread on my behalf:
http://prosemiteundercover.phpbbnow.com ... 768a210fd4

How Mr. Wells allows such an obviously disturbed individual to litter his house is puzzling.

Now go ahead and rebuke each quote one by one. You won't, you can't. And of course those direct quotes that are in the public realm are only representative of a larger picture. Nothing new. The reality is far uglier.

The blatant racism in those quotes can also be found in similar quotes of many "great" Americans as they described the Indigenous Peoples and the "Afrikaneers" they tore to shreds.

I'm looking through you. You are a vile character.
Liberal thy name is hypocrisy. What's new?
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David Ben Gurion

Postby chlamor » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:42 pm

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.


"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).
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Golda Meir

Postby chlamor » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:43 pm

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
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Postby chiggerbit » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:42 pm

Is this thread posted in response to DE's latest blogs, by any chance?
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No

Postby chlamor » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:51 pm

chiggerbit wrote:Is this thread posted in response to DE's latest blogs, by any chance?


Never read the blog. You could post the links and I'll examine them for a minute. Likely it would not take longer.

Not into personalities either. It's painfully obvious DE's a twisted sort with a transparent agenda. That's fine but let's be clear about that and let's not spend too much time or attention on that.

The quotes are emblematic. They are reflective.

Let's get with the substance. Let's get with what's real.

Meanwhile the children in Iraq....

Meanwhile the children in Palestine....
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Postby Dreams End » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:38 am

Yawn.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.


One should always be suspicious of such short quotes, with no context. But in this case, it's not the context that is the problem...it's the words at the beginning of the sentence which got left out.

But Professor Efraim Karsh, in his book Fabricating Israeli History: The New Historians, refutes this, showing that the Ben Gurion letter actually states the opposite, “We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their places.” (Karsh, p. 46-51) And this is just one of the many examples of fraud and misrepresentation Karsh exposes in the work of Morris, Shlaim, et. al.


You included this one, I notice, AFTER I told you to pick some you had researched carefully.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"


ben-Gurion was arguing from what he was characterizing as the Arab perspective. A couple lines before it says:
'I don't understand your optimism,' Ben Gurion declared. 'Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: they think we have taken their country.



Meanwhile, three more from ben Gurion:
“We do not want to create a situation like that which exists in South Africa, where the whites are the owners and rulers, and the blacks are the workers. If we do not do all kinds of work, easy and hard, skilled and unskilled, if we become merely landlords, then this will not be our homeland” (David Ben-Gurion to Palestinian nationalist Musa Alami 1934), quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War, London: Oxford University Press, 1985, p. 140).

Those who today murdered our people in an ambush not only plotted to murder some Jews but intended to provoke us... The Arabs stand to gain from such a development. They want the country to be in a state of perpetual pogrom.... Any further bloodshed [by the Jews] will only bring political advantage to the Arabs and harm us... Our strength is in the defense... and this strength will give us political victory if England and the world will know that we are defending ourselves rather than attacking.
(David Ben Gurion, 1936, quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War, London: Oxford University Press, 1985, p. 173-174).

"They [our Arab Neighbors] in turn have much to give us, they are blessed with what we lack. Great territories, ample for themselves and their children's children, even if they are far more prolific than they are today. We do not covet their expanses nor will we penetrate them - for we shall fight to end Diaspora in Arab lands as fiercely as we fought to end it in Europe, we want to be assembled wholly in our own Land. But if this region is to expand to the full, there must be reciprocity, there can be mutual aid - economic, political and cultural - between Jew and Arab. That is the necessity which will prevail, and the daily fulminations of their leaders should not alarm us unduly - they do not echo the real interests of the Arab peoples. David Ben Gurion, Speech to the elected assembly of Palestinian Jews, October 2, 1947


This one of chlamor's just happens to have a few words missing as well. Funny how that happens.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."


Full story:

The quote is taken from an address Dayan gave to Technion University students on March 19, 1969. A transcript of the speech appeared in Ha'aretz on April 4, 1969.

In answer to a student's question suggesting that Israel adopt a policy of punishing Arabs who commit crimes in the West Bank by deportation to Jordan, Dayan answers that he is vehemently opposed to this idea, insisting that the answer to the longstanding Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to live together with Arab neighbors. He goes on to say:

We came to a region of land that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In a considerable number of places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You don't even know the names [of the previous Arab villages] and I don't blame you, because those geography books aren't around anymore. Not only the books, the villages aren't around. Nahalal was established in the place of Mahalul, and Gvat was established in the place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Huneifis and Kfar Yehoshua in the place of Tel Shaman. There isn't any place that was established in an area where there had not at one time been an Arab settlement.

Dayan's conclusion was that the solution to the Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to coexist with them.


More later....too sleepy.
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Chlamor - you need to be very careful

Postby slow_dazzle » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:48 am

Your OP creates the impression that the views contained in the various quotes are applicable to all Israelis. Whilst Israel has been responsible for some pretty shitty stuff in the ME it is very, very dangerous to load the blame onto an entire nation. That would be like me saying I hate all those damned Americans because of the neocon cabal's destruction of Iraq. Clearly, that sort of approach separates the world into a simple black and white place when it is anything but: The world is a myriad of shades of gray.

Equally, Israeli opinion is not universally supportive of the suppression of Palestine; as you must know there is anti-war sentiment in Israel and some support for the plight of the Palestinians. As has always been the case the people get tarred with the same brush used for their leaders.

Specifically, the quotes, on their own, are context free and that is the worst position of all from which to start a debate. A debate cannot be commenced without an understanding of the context within which that debate is to proceed. Your quotes lack a specific context so it is impossible to know precisely how they should be regarded. Using quotes in that way is not all that far away from soundbite techniques.

My biggest gripe with a shotgun attack on Israelis per se is the insidious effect it has on people who are less informed than those of us who take an interest in world affairs. The nutters who frequent the white supremacist boards must love this sort of stuff. Those of them who are smart will be rubbing their hands with glee. Those who are dimmies will be uttering their monosyllabic grunts of hate. Projecting hate onto an entire nation is a very, very dangerous thing to do because the rascism inherent in many people doesn't need much encouragement to manifest itself.

Demonising an entire nation without placing that nation's activities into the context of the power structure that controls it is not only dangerous, it is very slack thinking. To reiterate the point I made above, a debate cannot be commenced without an understanding of the context within which that debate is to proceed

Two final comments. First, I have a lot of symapthy with the overall stance you take on world affairs and society, so this is not an attack on you in any way. Second, I can't believe I'm supporting DE...rotflmao!
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Postby NavnDansk » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:07 am

Albert Einstein refused the offer to be the first president of Israel and stated he thought it was a bad idea and that the test for Israel would be how they treated the Palestinians who had been there first.

This is quoted in an excellent article by an American Jew who is sickened to the core by Israel breaking the legs of Palestinian children and using the excuse that they are defending themselves.

Article is called MY LETTER OF RESIGNATION TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE and it is on Vox something - should be easy to find and his quoting of Albert Einstein who forsaw some of the horror and predicted an immense backlash against the Jews.
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LEANING ON JESUS .... LEANING ON THE EVERLASTING ARMS

Postby NavnDansk » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:27 am

http://www.morethings.com/fan/night_of_ ... script.htm

The Night of the Hunter


FULL SHOT -- THE STARLIT SKY

VOICE
And he opened his mouth and taught them,saying...



Beware of false prophets....

... which come to you in sheep's clothing ...

... but inwardly, they are ravening wolves.


Ye shall know them by their fruits.


A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit....

Neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Wherefore by their fruits, ye shall know them.



Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image

I've known preachers who were like God's saints on earth, and I've known preachers who were crookeder than a dogs leg but I ain't never seen one as bad as this un.


Image
Back of PREACHER's head is still immobile.

RACHEL
March, Mister! I'm not foolin'.

CLOSE SHOT -- PREACHER, OVER GUN BARREL
PREACHER gets to his feet. The open knife is in his hand. As we see it, the gun barrel twitches. PREACHER backs away towards his horse, bouncing the knife lightly in his hand.

PREACHER
(screaming)
You ain't done with Harry Powell yet! The Lord
God Jehovah will guide my hand in vengeance!
You devils! You Whores of Babylon! I'll come
back when it's dark.

Image

Image

Image


Faith in God -- Powell's twisted belief in God is part of why he kills people (in the name of the Lord); he also pretends to be a preacher and preaches gospel, a further connection with God. Conversely, Rachel lives by the Bible, and quotes it. The two of them have a sort of spiritual test of faith when Powell sits outside her house through the night, singing what he can remember of the hymn "Leaning on Jesus (The
Everlasting Arms)"; Rachel fills in the lyrics with conviction, overwhelming his false belief.


Image

DISSOLVE TO

FULL SHOT -- RACHEL'S HOUSE -- NIGHT
It is dark. O.s. we hear PREACHER singing "Leaning."

FULL FIGURE SHOT -- RACHEL
She sits in profile, her gun across her knees. Song continues o.s.

FULL SHOT -- THE CHILDREN, ASLEEP
... in a big bed. RUBY sits up, listening to song o.s.

FULL FIGURE SHOT -- RACHEL, AS BEFORE
Song continues o.s. We PAN to PREACHER outside. We see him through window.

He sits hunched on a stump.

FULL SHOT -- THE HOUSE, OVER PREACHER
He continues singing.

HEAD PROFILE -- RACHEL
After a moment, we see her mouth open; and either to comfort herself or to drown out PREACHER's voice, she joins in the hymn.


Image

.........
http://www.morethings.com/fan/night_of_ ... /index.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/sounds/Hymns/leaning.htm

Leaning on The Everlasting Arms
Words by Eli­sha A. Hoff­man
Music by An­tho­ny J. Sho­wal­ter

Deuteronomy 33:27

"The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms:"

What a fellowship, what a joy divine,
Leaning on the everlasting arms;
What a blessedness, what a peace is mine,
Leaning on the everlasting arms.

Chorus
Leaning, leaning,
(Leaning on Jesus, leaning on Jesus)
Safe and secure from all alarms;
Leaning, leaning,
(Leaning on Jesus, leaning on Jesus)
Leaning on the everlasting arms.

O how sweet to walk in this pilgrim way,
Leaning on the everlasting arms;
O how bright the path grows from day to day,
Leaning on the everlasting arms.

Chorus
Leaning, leaning,
(Leaning on Jesus, leaning on Jesus)
Safe and secure from all alarms;
Leaning, leaning,
(Leaning on Jesus, leaning on Jesus)
Leaning on the everlasting arms.

What have I to dread, what have I to fear,
Leaning on the everlasting arms;
I have blessed peace with my Lord so near,
Leaning on the everlasting arms.

Chorus
Leaning, leaning,
(Leaning on Jesus, leaning on Jesus)
Safe and secure from all alarms;
Leaning, leaning,
(Leaning on Jesus, leaning on Jesus)
Leaning on the everlasting arms.

Download Song
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Postby Dreams End » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:59 am

What is up with the multi-pic spamming going on around here? Is this some new fashion trend. I have enjoyed looking around at Golda Meir quotes and later will post what I found about that, but as for the Einstein quote...the objection was not to "Zionism" the objection was to the rightwing Haherut party. When you are unable to see any distinctions whatsoever and merely chant the word "Zionist' over and over, this will be incomprehensible to you, but within the ranks of those who support the founding and maintenance of Israel, there are DIFFERENT OPINIONS.

It will be VERY clear from the letter, which I post below in its entirety, that the signers of that letter are PRO Zionist. Notice this criticism of the party, for example:
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.



But they are anti-fascist and see the Haherut party as such. haherut descended from Irgun/Stern Gang circles. How they came to power after being such an extreme party, reflective of a tiny minority is another question. I offer a clue, at least as far as why the U.S. would prefer them, in the bolded text below.

Letters to the Editor
New York Times
December 4, 1948

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughoutthe world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.


Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants ? 240men, women, and children - and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin. The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.


The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ
HANNAH ARENDT
ABRAHAM BRICK
RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO
ALBERT EINSTEIN
HERMAN EISEN, M.D.
HAYIM FINEMAN
M. GALLEN, M.D.
H.H. HARRIS
ZELIG S. HARRIS
SIDNEY HOOK
FRED KARUSH
BRURIA KAUFMAN
IRMA L. LINDHEIM
NACHMAN MAISEL
SEYMOUR MELMAN
MYER D. MENDELSON
M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY
SAMUEL PITLICK
FRITZ ROHRLICH
LOUIS P. ROCKER
RUTH SAGIS
ITZHAK SANKOWSKY
I.J. SHOENBERG
SAMUEL SHUMAN
M. SINGER
IRMA WOLFE
STEFAN WOLF.
Dreams End
 

Re: Chlamor - you need to be very careful

Postby chlamor » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:48 am

slow_dazzle wrote:Your OP creates the impression that the views contained in the various quotes are applicable to all Israelis. Whilst Israel has been responsible for some pretty shitty stuff in the ME it is very, very dangerous to load the blame onto an entire nation. That would be like me saying I hate all those damned Americans because of the neocon cabal's destruction of Iraq. Clearly, that sort of approach separates the world into a simple black and white place when it is anything but: The world is a myriad of shades of gray.

Equally, Israeli opinion is not universally supportive of the suppression of Palestine; as you must know there is anti-war sentiment in Israel and some support for the plight of the Palestinians. As has always been the case the people get tarred with the same brush used for their leaders.

Specifically, the quotes, on their own, are context free and that is the worst position of all from which to start a debate. A debate cannot be commenced without an understanding of the context within which that debate is to proceed. Your quotes lack a specific context so it is impossible to know precisely how they should be regarded. Using quotes in that way is not all that far away from soundbite techniques.

My biggest gripe with a shotgun attack on Israelis per se is the insidious effect it has on people who are less informed than those of us who take an interest in world affairs. The nutters who frequent the white supremacist boards must love this sort of stuff. Those of them who are smart will be rubbing their hands with glee. Those who are dimmies will be uttering their monosyllabic grunts of hate. Projecting hate onto an entire nation is a very, very dangerous thing to do because the rascism inherent in many people doesn't need much encouragement to manifest itself.

Demonising an entire nation without placing that nation's activities into the context of the power structure that controls it is not only dangerous, it is very slack thinking. To reiterate the point I made above, a debate cannot be commenced without an understanding of the context within which that debate is to proceed

Two final comments. First, I have a lot of symapthy with the overall stance you take on world affairs and society, so this is not an attack on you in any way. Second, I can't believe I'm supporting DE...rotflmao!


Let me help you in that respect. Oh just some "shitty" things done? Like mass murder and ongoing raping of people's lands. The record is voluminous and you know this unless one is too blinded by a specific agenda. Should I spend all week listing the atrocities that Israel has been involved in? And please don't pass the warmed over "moral equivalence" dish my way. Doesn't fly. It's a lie.

Here's a short list:
Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.

General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948



"Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."



Israel's occupation of Palestine is Illegal.

Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967



Calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied in the war that year and "the acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."



Israel's settlements in Palestine are Illegal.

Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979



"Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East."



Palestinian have the right to Self-Determination.

General Assembly Resolution 3236, November 22, 1974



Affirms "the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine...to self-determination without external interference" and "to national independence and sovereignty."



Reaffirmation of a Palestinian State

Security Council Resolution 1397, March 12, 2002



Affirms "a vision of a region where two states, Israel and Palestine, live side by side within secure and recognized borders."



Also see:



UN General Assembly Resolution 181 - the 1947 Partition plan of Palestine and the creation of Israel.



International Humanitarian Law: the Geneva Conventions - 150 years of international designated protection of civilians during wartime and Israel's explicit violations.



History of the Palestinian Problem - from the Division for Palestinian Rights, United Nations



Countless More UN Resolutions on Israel - 1955-1992







More UN Resolutions on Israel, 1955-1992



Resolution 106: condemns Israel for Gaza raid.

Resolution 111: condemns Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people.

Resolution 127: recommends Israel suspend its no-man's zone' in Jerusalem.

Resolution 162: urges Israel to comply with UN decisions.

Resolution 171: determines flagrant violations by Israel in its attack on Syria.

Resolution 228: censures Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control.

Resolution 237: urges Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees.

Resolution 248: condemns Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan.

Resolution 250: calls on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem.

Resolution 251: deeply deplores Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250.

Resolution 252: declares invalid Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital.

Resolution 256: condemns Israeli raids on Jordan as flagrant violation.

Resolution 259: deplores Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation.

Resolution 262: condemns Israel for attack on Beirut airport.

Resolution 265: condemns Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan.

Resolution 267: censures Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem.

Resolution 270: condemns Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon.

Resolution 271: condemns Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem.

Resolution 279: demands withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon.

Resolution 280: condemns Israeli's attacks against Lebanon.

Resolution 285: demands immediate Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon.

Resolution 298: deplores Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem.

Resolution 313: demands that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon.

Resolution 316: condemns Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon.

Resolution 317: deplores Israel's refusal to release.

Resolution 332: condemns Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon.

Resolution 337: condemns Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty.

Resolution 347: condemns Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Resolution 425: calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.

Resolution 427: calls on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.

Resolution 444: deplores Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces.

Resolution 446: determines that Israeli settlements are a serious obstruction to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention

Resolution 450: calls on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon.

Resolution 452: calls on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories.

Resolution 465: deplores Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist its settlements program.

Resolution 467: strongly deplores Israel's military intervention in Lebanon.

Resolution 468: calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return.

Resolution 469: strongly deplores Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians.

Resolution 471: expresses deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Resolution 476: reiterates that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are null and void.

Resolution 478: censures (Israel) in the strongest terms for its claim to Jerusalem in its Basic Law.

Resolution 484: declares it imperative that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors.

Resolution 487: strongly condemns Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility.

Resolution 497: decides that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights

is null and void and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith.

Resolution 498: calls on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.

Resolution 501: calls on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops.

Resolution 509: demands that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon.

Resolution 515: demands that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in.

Resolution 517: censures Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon.

Resolution 518: demands that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon.

Resolution 520: condemns Israel's attack into West Beirut.

Resolution 573: condemns Israel vigorously for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters.

Resolution 587: takes note of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw.

Resolution 592: strongly deplores the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops.

Resolution 605: strongly deplores Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.

Resolution 607: calls on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Resolution 608: deeply regrets that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians.

Resolution 636: deeply regrets Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.

Resolution 641: deplores Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.

Resolution 672: condemns Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram Al-Sharif/Temple Mount.

Resolution 673: deplores Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.

Resolution 681: deplores Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.

Resolution 694: deplores Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.

Resolution 726: strongly condemns Israel's deportation of Palestinians.

Resolution 799: strongly condemns Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html
Liberal thy name is hypocrisy. What's new?
chlamor
 
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