27 Comments in Support of Israel

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27 Comments in Support of Israel

Postby chlamor » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:03 pm

1) "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

2) "We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

3) "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

4) "The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

5) "(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

6) "There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

7) "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

8] "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

9) "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

10) "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

11) "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

12) "Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

13) "This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

14) "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

15) " create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

16) " are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

17) "The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

18] "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

19) "The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

20) "Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

21) "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

22) "If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

23) "I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

24) "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

25) "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

26) “I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
— Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon

(27) “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
— Rabbi Yaacov Perrin (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6)

This last comment, Comment #29 for those keeping score, is in question as to it's authenticity. Though no doubt Begin and thousands like him feel and live this racist sentiment we wouldn't want to get nipped by the minutiae and therefore discredited.

"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."
— Israeli Prime Minister Menechem Begin

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I love living in a gated community. I feel safer, I don’t lock my doors when I go for my morning jog or for a bike ride in the community. I really like my neighbors and we entertain all the time. We golf , go to dinner at the clubhouse. Have a nice swim and lie on the Beach. It is a great life and we are slightly removed from the horrors in the city not far from us. I don’t see anything wrong with fences and gated communities. It is clean, with manicured lawns, no trash anywhere. Its scenic and beautiful. Why wouldn’t you like living there. Is it not real enough for you. Do you like being surrounded by chaos and trouble? I don’t.I like the peace and quiet and serenity. People act the way you expect decent people to behave. They are courteous and helpful and everyone appears to be more happy than not. I thought that was our goal in life. Not strife and terror and rudeness and vulgarity.
Last edited by chlamor on Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jeff » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:38 pm

This looks identical to the list of a post which got firepitted here. In that thread a good case is made to cast doubt upon the accuracy of a number of the quotes. (One small example: I searched for "Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial," which is attributed to Sharon via the BBC, and almost every instance is on a list like this one, posted on an anti-Zionist website. Nothing comes close to the BBC or a similar source.)

Here's my thing: this topic is inflammatory enough that it doesn't need more gasoline poured on it in the form of unsourced and partial quotes crafted to get a good hate on.
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Postby Doodad » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:47 pm

"We must expel the Arabs and take their places."

Though Abu Marzook doesn’t say so, this false quote is regularly attributed to David Ben-Gurion, as a quick Internet search shows, and originates from Benny Morris' book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem. The problem with Morris, however, is that he not only relied on a secondary source, but he also distorted it. Israeli scholar Efraim Karsh, in contrast, checked the original Hebrew document in question, a hand-written Oct. 7, 1937 letter from Ben-Gurion to his son, and found its actual wording to be the opposite of what Abu Marzook and Morris claim:

We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their place [ 'ein anu rotsim ve'ein anu tsrihim legaresh aravim ve'lakahat mekomam']. All our aspiration is built on the assumption - proven throughout all our activity in the Land [of Israel] - that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs. But if we have to use force - not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan; but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places - then we have force at our disposal. (p. 49-50, Fabricating Israeli History: the 'New Historians', by Efraim Karsh)
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Postby Doodad » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:50 pm

Media Monitors (http://www.mediamonitors.net)

An article archived on the Media Monitors Web site is filled with questionable assertions and bogus quotes (some of which were debunked in Part I.) The following quote (which also appears on the MIFTAH Web site) was attributed to Israeli Northern District Commissioner Israel Koenig, supposedly from his controversial report on Israeli Arabs in Galilee:

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.

Source given: Cited in Lustick, Ian, Arabs in the Jewish State, University of Texas Press, Texas, 1980.

Investigation: Neither the source given (Ian Lustick's Arabs in the Jewish State) nor the actual report itself contains any mention of "terror, assassination, intimidation or land confiscation".

The Koenig Report or “memorandum” as it is sometimes referred to, was a private document of recommendations written in 1975 by civil servant Israel Koenig, the Interior Ministry’s official in charge of the Galilee, to alter the demographic balance of the region in favor of the Jews. The recommendations were rejected by then Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, denounced by senior Cabinet ministers and rued by then foreign minister Yigal Alon who expressed great regret that the recommendations were ever written. It provoked controversy within Israel after being leaked to Al Hamishmar, the publication of Israel’s Marxist party, Mapam. Koenig’s recommendations included expanding and strengthening Israel’s Jewish presence in the Galilee, applying legal consequences to Arabs expressing hostility toward the state and Zionism, enforcing tax collection from the Arab sector, cutting family subsidies to Arabs with large families, eliminating preferential acceptance of Arabs into Israeli universities, channeling Arab students into studying the physical and natural sciences rather than humanities, and encouraging young Arabs to study abroad and emigrate. As controversial as Koenig’s proposals were at the time, however, there was absolutely no suggestion of using "terror," "assassination," "intimidation" or "land confiscations."

Summary: Fabricated quote, false source
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Postby Doodad » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:07 pm

I could keep this up all night. Most of the crap listed is misquote complied by alleged fascist site whatreallyhappened.com

http://www.devvy.com/200301221627.html

Some are true but the worst ones are of course fabricated.
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Postby chlamor » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:13 pm

Jeff wrote:This looks identical to the list of a post which got firepitted here. In that thread a good case is made to cast doubt upon the accuracy of a number of the quotes. (One small example: I searched for "Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial," which is attributed to Sharon via the BBC, and almost every instance is on a list like this one, posted on an anti-Zionist website. Nothing comes close to the BBC or a similar source.)

Here's my thing: this topic is inflammatory enough that it doesn't need more gasoline poured on it in the form of unsourced and partial quotes crafted to get a good hate on.


Okay for the sake of veracity I've deleted that particular comment but do you seriously doubt that Sharon has stated far worse? Now what problems would anyone have with an anti-Zionist site per se.

I can see what problem one might have with many of the "anti-Zionist" sites but many of those, if not most, haven't much of a clue as to what Zionism actually is and why it is so pernicious just as many, if not most, of the people who sling around the "anti-semitism" disinformation are equally illiterate in political theory.

But really now do you doubt for even a second that the comments listed are not reflective of a very significant portion of the Israeli population? Do you doubt for even a second that these comments are really quite mild and if we were to hear off the record comments by same individuals it would be infinitely more disgusting?

Also take note of the images. Acknowledge where they come from and how that plays into this. Should I next pull quotes from Andrew Jackson, James K. Polk and various Grand Dragons to make it crystal clear?

"Topics" that are considered "inflammatory" (does this mean off limits or to be handled with kid gloves?) have in most cases become that way due to very agenda driven forces that have created such a climate. This is the case with Israel as it is dishonestly presented in the US media and is the case with the innumerable internet trolls who immediately destroy honest discussion on this purportedly "inflammatory" topic.

Perhaps a stream of quotes from Golda Meir are needed?

In fact if we were to go into this in great detail we would find these quotes are but milquetoast from representatives of a murderous state. The reality is far worse. Of course the range isn't as wide as what we would find from say, America, but the wicked essence remains the same.
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Postby chlamor » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:17 pm

Doodad wrote:I could keep this up all night. Most of the crap listed is misquote complied by alleged fascist site whatreallyhappened.com

http://www.devvy.com/200301221627.html

Some are true but the worst ones are of course fabricated.


Sorry double 'd' but none of these came from the site you listed though no doubt WRH also has them in it's bank. FWIW WRH is mostly a Libertarian site run by M. Rivero and spends too much time attacking Israel, though much time is needed and required in this respect, and also denies Global Warming.

Not a place to cull in-depth analysis.

So now go over each quote one by one.

And of course you know these quotes are but a trifle.
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Postby Doodad » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:19 pm

If you have to use fabricated quotes there is something very wrong with you. You are hate mongering. It also means you are allowing yourself to be influenced by liars and makes anything you say very suspect.

You view is agenda driven rather than intellectually honest. If it were intellectually honest it could make its case without the fabrications and hateful sources.
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well

Postby smiths » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:54 pm

Okay for the sake of veracity I've deleted that particular comment but do you seriously doubt that Sharon has stated far worse?


sharon was an arsehole of epic proportions but it simply isnt good enough to post a wrong quote and justify it with the comment that you think/know he would have said worse,
the health of the discussion and the learning here depends on checking things out and if, in honest error, we get it wrong, we retract and apologise

it has been very frustrating for me over the last few years to here really interesting quotes or pieces of info and then when i set out to verify them there is no original verifiable source,

that 'mayer rothschild' one about not caring who makes the laws if he can control the money is a classic example, he may well of said things like it or worse but theres no true verifiable source for it as far as i know
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Postby Jeff » Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:08 am

chlamor wrote:Okay for the sake of veracity I've deleted that particular comment but do you seriously doubt that Sharon has stated far worse?


No I honestly don't. But it should matter whether he said it or not. If it doesn't matter, then such a list as this one is valuable only as agitprop.
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Re: well

Postby Doodad » Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:09 am

smiths wrote:
Okay for the sake of veracity I've deleted that particular comment but do you seriously doubt that Sharon has stated far worse?


sharon was an arsehole of epic proportions but it simply isnt good enough to post a wrong quote and justify it with the comment that you think/know he would have said worse,
the health of the discussion and the learning here depends on checking things out and if, in honest error, we get it wrong, we retract and apologise

it has been very frustrating for me over the last few years to here really interesting quotes or pieces of info and then when i set out to verify them there is no original verifiable source,

that 'mayer rothschild' one about not caring who makes the laws if he can control the money is a classic example, he may well of said things like it or worse but theres no true verifiable source for it as far as i know


The biggest problem using quotes to begin with is that they should be used to augment specific logical argument as they would in any academic/intellectual enterprise. A willy nilly display like this is simply.....a willy nilly display with an agenda; not an argument.

And, of course, it is imperative that they be true quotes
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Postby Pele'sDaughter » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:04 am

Yes, there's a prevailing attitude of supremacy among Israeli's although I'm sure many can see through this just as many Americans can see through theirs. It seems to be at the heart of Zionist principles though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O9W3UsdRyM

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 34,00.html

http://desertpeace.blogspot.com/2007/09 ... h-for.html

http://desertpeace.blogspot.com/2007/09 ... id-by.html

People act badly, not because of who they are, but because of the lies they believe. And we've all believed lies at one time or another so we can't condemn others for doing the same. We can hope that by living the truth ourselves that others may be compelled to seek the truth for themselves.
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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Postby Doodad » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:14 am

Pele'sDaughter wrote:Yes, there's a prevailing attitude of supremacy among Israeli's although I'm sure many can see through this just as many Americans can see through theirs. It seems to be at the heart of Zionist principles though.


And you have interviewed how many to come to this momentous conclusion?

:roll:
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Postby Pele'sDaughter » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:19 am

It's fairly obvious just from observing, and I did say it doesn't describe all Israeli's. Did you go to the links? If you'd rather be blind to that problem you're free to close your eyes.
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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Postby Doodad » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:29 am

Pele'sDaughter wrote:It's fairly obvious just from observing, and I did say it doesn't describe all Israeli's. Did you go to the links? If you'd rather be blind to that problem you're free to close your eyes.


If things were fairly obvious from observing, the world really would be flat. This is the problem with blanket accusations such as yours. It has nothing to do with closed eyes; it has to do with identifying stereotypes which most would abhor were they spoken about any other group but Israelis.
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