27 Comments in Support of Israel

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Postby Pele'sDaughter » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:34 am

Your reading comprehensive leaves a lot to be desired, although it appears your misunderstanding is willful. In that case I won't be bothered to respond to your tripe in the future.
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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Postby Doodad » Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:14 am

Pele'sDaughter wrote:Your reading comprehensive leaves a lot to be desired, although it appears your misunderstanding is willful. In that case I won't be bothered to respond to your tripe in the future.


An excellent way to avoid defending YOUR tripe, Don't let the door kick you in the butt.
Doodad
 

Postby AlicetheKurious » Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:59 am

If things were fairly obvious from observing, the world really would be flat.


Ah, yes! The old "who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"

Presumably, rather than "observing", we should all get our talking points from right-wing racist web-sites like "Little Green Footballs" and that propaganda mouthpiece Con Coughlin, whom you've used as your own sources.

But, really, you don't come right out and say what you stand for. Are you condemning the Palestinians for fighting the illegal occupation of their lands, of opposing the zionist project that is predicated on their destruction?

What is your POINT? You seem to be suggesting that the Israelis are victims of the Palestinians, rather than the other way around, in defiance of all the facts (rapid Israeli territorial expansion into Arab lands, countless war crimes, the disproproportionate number of civilians, especially children, killed by Israelis, the economic siege of Palestinian civilians leading to severe malnutrition and a humanitarian crisis, etc., etc.)

What FACTS have you presented to support your defence of Israel and condemnation of its victims?

What LOGIC?

None so far. Just "facts" culled from racist web-sites and "logic" that assumes that some ethnic groups should be allowed to oppress, even destroy, others.
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Postby Doodad » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:30 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:
If things were fairly obvious from observing, the world really would be flat.


Ah, yes! The old "who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"

Presumably, rather than "observing", we should all get our talking points from right-wing racist web-sites like "Little Green Footballs" and that propaganda mouthpiece Con Coughlin, whom you've used as your own sources.

But, really, you don't come right out and say what you stand for. Are you condemning the Palestinians for fighting the illegal occupation of their lands, of opposing the zionist project that is predicated on their destruction?

What is your POINT? You seem to be suggesting that the Israelis are victims of the Palestinians, rather than the other way around, in defiance of all the facts (rapid Israeli territorial expansion into Arab lands, countless war crimes, the disproproportionate number of civilians, especially children, killed by Israelis, the economic siege of Palestinian civilians leading to severe malnutrition and a humanitarian crisis, etc., etc.)

What FACTS have you presented to support your defence of Israel and condemnation of its victims?

What LOGIC?

None so far. Just "facts" culled from racist web-sites and "logic" that assumes that some ethnic groups should be allowed to oppress, even destroy, others.


Alice, you are one boring dogmatic panderer who also appears unable to read anything someone says other than what she WANTS. Let's look at waht I've said.

1. Sources....I read many sources of information; this is the only way to be truly informed on all the issues in a debate. Any serious debater has to be fully informed rather than poorly informed. YOU appear to espouse the opposite; only CERTAIN anointed sources are to be considered.

2. The Palestinians are quite justified in "resisting," as long as it is doing so against legitimate military targets. Pizza parlours, restaurants, school busses, kindergartens, whole towns are NOT military targets. Military targets would be places where the active military are found; bases, checkpoints, convoys, etc. For the record, I do not support any Israeli policy which deliberately targets innocent civilians (ie civilians engaged in their daily business.) I do support Israel's right to secure the safety of her citizens.

3. I support Israel's right to exist and zionism which supports that part. I do not support land grabs and have SAID so before on this forum. I believe that given the lack of treaties and hence borders, that the issue of who gets what is moot until that happens. I believe that much of the demonization that goes on around that issue ignores that simple fact for precisely that reason; demonization of Israel.

4. I support a two state solution obtained via negotiation of two viable peace partners. The wishes of others do not matter in that regard except as it promotes the interests and rights of both sides.

As far as logic is concerned, when I hear the word issued from you I glaze over since all I have seen from you is, as Jeff has labeled it, agitprop. You have nothing to offer beyond continued strife, violence and lies.
Doodad
 

Postby theeKultleeder » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:36 pm

Doodad wrote:If things were fairly obvious from observing, the world really would be flat. This is the problem with blanket accusations such as yours. It has nothing to do with closed eyes; it has to do with identifying stereotypes which most would abhor were they spoken about any other group but Israelis.


This is a non-sensical statement, though I think I see the problem... It goes to one of *my* meta-beliefs. Hmm, and don't belittle my use of the "meta" prefix; the following is a belief about beliefs:

Beliefs pre-condition the observation of reality.

Doodad, you seem quite unaware of the subtleties of propaganda/counter-propaganda. It is one thing to denounce stereotypes and blanket-statements, it is quite another thing to denounce such things from one side while endorsing the same from the opposite end of the spectrum. I believe it's called "hypocrisy."

Here is a proposal for honest debate on the Israel/Palestine conflict:

1) Gather well-sourced and credible news.

2) Remove all cultural, religious, and state identifiers; replace them with variables like "party A, party B," and so forth.

3) Analyze the stories and geopolitical situations without preconceptions; use your natural or God-given moral sense to make judgements as to right and wrong, healthy and sick...

4) Replace the variables with the proper nouns and come to a sane conclusion on the reality of the situation.

5) Stand up for what is right and good, not just what you believe or some sort of tribal affiliation.

Voila! Confusions cleared, moral clarity attained. Time to speak up for humanity.
theeKultleeder
 

Postby John E. Nemo » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:43 pm

Oy vey!
I get really tired of the Jew bashing that goes on around here, particularly when you're getting your facts wrong.
There's a few bad apples that I wish would just STFU, as it's getting really old and you're starting to sound like the Turner Diaries.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/mo ... story.html

Bush gets 24 percent of Jewish vote — less than GOP hoped for

by James D. Besser

Washington | Republican hopes for a big Jewish surge in this year’s presidential contest were dashed on Tuesday, Nov. 2, when President George W. Bush, in his successful bid for a second term, claimed only about 24 percent of the Jewish vote nationally, according to exit polls published by major news outlets.

That was 5 points above his weak 2000 showing, and it came after an extensive and expensive campaign by Jewish Republican groups and a big pro-Bush turnout by the Orthodox community, which strongly approved of the president’s Mideast policies.


In Israel, many organizations work for peace and against the Likkudites fringe minority.

http://www.nimn.org/

Not In My Name is a predominantly Jewish peace group that was founded in November 2000 to organize opposition to the Israeli Occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. We believe that the Israelis and Palestinians deserve a chance to live in peace but that there are obstacles that prevent this from happening.

The main obstacles include the Israeli Occupation and the U.S. government’s support of it. We believe that the first step toward attaining peace must be for Israel to end its Occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem and for the U.S. to stop using our tax dollars to support it.


We call ourselves "Not In My Name" because the State of Israel often claims to act in the name and interests of all the Jews in the world. Taking our place within the Jewish community, we offer an alternative voice, motivated first and foremost by a love for peace and justice.

We welcome the full and active participation of non-Jews who support our work and who, recognizing that their tax dollars are being use to support the Israeli Occupation, want to say “Not in my name, either!”


By the way, in response to pics of Jews attacking Arabs, I'll post pics of the late Yasser Arafat the Nazi.

Image
John E. Nemo
 

Postby theeKultleeder » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:54 pm

Why don't you change the description to "Soldiers bashing people"?
theeKultleeder
 

Postby Doodad » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:15 pm

theeKultleeder wrote:Doodad, you seem quite unaware of the subtleties of propaganda/counter-propaganda. It is one thing to denounce stereotypes and blanket-statements, it is quite another thing to denounce such things from one side while endorsing the same from the opposite end of the spectrum. I believe it's called "hypocrisy."


Gee, I would agree. Now if you could just show me where I ENDORSED any stereotypes and blanket statements from one side? Thanks in advance.
Doodad
 

Postby Doodad » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:16 pm

Oy vey!
I get really tired of the Jew bashing that goes on around here, particularly when you're getting your facts wrong.
There's a few bad apples that I wish would just STFU, as it's getting really old and you're starting to sound like the Turner Diaries.



What a great :idea:
Doodad
 

Postby theeKultleeder » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:21 pm

Doodad wrote:
theeKultleeder wrote:Doodad, you seem quite unaware of the subtleties of propaganda/counter-propaganda. It is one thing to denounce stereotypes and blanket-statements, it is quite another thing to denounce such things from one side while endorsing the same from the opposite end of the spectrum. I believe it's called "hypocrisy."


Gee, I would agree. Now if you could just show me where I ENDORSED any stereotypes and blanket statements from one side? Thanks in advance.


It seems everybody but you sees it. You're welcome retroactively.

BTW I like how you always ignore the substantive portions of my comments and instead turn the conversation to your wonderful little self.

Da dah dahhhdahhh it's the Doodad Show!
theeKultleeder
 

Postby theeKultleeder » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:29 pm

Doodad wrote:If you have to use fabricated quotes there is something very wrong with you. You are hate mongering. It also means you are allowing yourself to be influenced by liars and makes anything you say very suspect.

You view is agenda driven rather than intellectually honest. If it were intellectually honest it could make its case without the fabrications and hateful sources.

If things were fairly obvious from observing, the world really would be flat. This is the problem with blanket accusations such as yours. It has nothing to do with closed eyes; it has to do with identifying stereotypes which most would abhor were they spoken about any other group but Israelis.



Orange = blanket statements.

Red = stereotypes.

FYI it seems most of your comments are a tapestry of blanket statements and stereotypes. Although I do appreciate your ferreting out of the misquotes and fabrications earlier in the thread. Good stuff.

You are welcome in advance.
theeKultleeder
 

Postby Pele'sDaughter » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:33 pm

I get really tired of the Jew bashing that goes on around here


Well, it's only in your imagination so you should be able to do something about it. :roll:
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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Postby Doodad » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:54 pm

theeKultleeder wrote:
Doodad wrote:If you have to use fabricated quotes there is something very wrong with you. You are hate mongering. It also means you are allowing yourself to be influenced by liars and makes anything you say very suspect.

You view is agenda driven rather than intellectually honest. If it were intellectually honest it could make its case without the fabrications and hateful sources.

If things were fairly obvious from observing, the world really would be flat. This is the problem with blanket accusations such as yours. It has nothing to do with closed eyes; it has to do with identifying stereotypes which most would abhor were they spoken about any other group but Israelis.



Orange = blanket statements.

Red = stereotypes.

FYI it seems most of your comments are a tapestry of blanket statements and stereotypes. Although I do appreciate your ferreting out of the misquotes and fabrications earlier in the thread. Good stuff.

You are welcome in advance.


Bullshit, I sourced the fabrications which were the evidence of my premise and conclusion. That same evidence supports the other premises and conclusions.

And in truth, observations make nothing OBVIOUS, except supposition; it offers little else on its own. This is why people were able to calculate the world wasn't flat.

I think your universe may be just a little bit TOO alternative, Kult. I understand you want to be even handed but logic has to take the upper hand here to speculation given the pain involved in the original .debate
Doodad
 

Postby Doodad » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:58 pm

theeKultleeder wrote:
Doodad wrote:
theeKultleeder wrote:Doodad, you seem quite unaware of the subtleties of propaganda/counter-propaganda. It is one thing to denounce stereotypes and blanket-statements, it is quite another thing to denounce such things from one side while endorsing the same from the opposite end of the spectrum. I believe it's called "hypocrisy."


Gee, I would agree. Now if you could just show me where I ENDORSED any stereotypes and blanket statements from one side? Thanks in advance.


It seems everybody but you sees it. You're welcome retroactively.

BTW I like how you always ignore the substantive portions of my comments and instead turn the conversation to your wonderful little self.

Da dah dahhhdahhh it's the Doodad Show!


Brother, what should I do, talk in the royal 3rd person when you address something to me?

WTF?
Doodad
 

Postby theeKultleeder » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:05 pm

Doodad wrote:
theeKultleeder wrote:
Doodad wrote:If you have to use fabricated quotes there is something very wrong with you. You are hate mongering. It also means you are allowing yourself to be influenced by liars and makes anything you say very suspect.

You view is agenda driven rather than intellectually honest. If it were intellectually honest it could make its case without the fabrications and hateful sources.

If things were fairly obvious from observing, the world really would be flat. This is the problem with blanket accusations such as yours. It has nothing to do with closed eyes; it has to do with identifying stereotypes which most would abhor were they spoken about any other group but Israelis.



Orange = blanket statements.

Red = stereotypes.

FYI it seems most of your comments are a tapestry of blanket statements and stereotypes. Although I do appreciate your ferreting out of the misquotes and fabrications earlier in the thread. Good stuff.

You are welcome in advance.


Bullshit, I sourced the fabrications which were the evidence of my premise and conclusion. That same evidence supports the other premises and conclusions.

And in truth, observations make nothing OBVIOUS, except supposition; it offers little else on its own. This is why people were able to calculate the world wasn't flat.

I think your universe may be just a little bit TOO alternative, Kult. I understand you want to be even handed but logic has to take the upper hand here to speculation given the pain involved in the original .debate


Cool. An argument about an argument; the substantive issues are left in the dust. This chain of wandering Ego leads only into itself. No end in sight.

No end in sight, just like in the Middle East conflict.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the name-calling portion of the Doodad Show!"
theeKultleeder
 

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