27 Comments in Support of Israel

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Postby AlicetheKurious » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:05 pm

You crack me up, John E. Nemo. You really shouldn't believe everything you read.

So gay Palestinians are "escaping" from the bad Palestinians in Gaza to the warm embrace of Israel, eh? Funny the article doesn't explain how that is possible.

Are we talking about the same Gaza?


A little context here:


B’Tselem and HaMoked
March 29, 2005

...
Israel has cut off the Gaza Strip from the rest of the world to such an extent that it is easier for Palestinians in Israel or the West Bank to visit relatives in prison than visit a relative in Gaza. This is one conclusion of the 100-page report that B’Tselem and HaMoked publish today. One Big Prison documents the ongoing violations of human rights and international law resulting from Israel’s restrictions on the movement of people and goods between Gaza and the West Bank, Israel, and the rest of the world.
...
As a result of the economic siege on Gaza, more than 77 percent of Gazans (1,033,500 people) now live below the poverty line – almost double the number before the intifada. Some 23 percent of Gazans (over 323,000 people) are in “deep poverty,” meaning that they do not reach the subsistence poverty line even after receiving aid from international agencies.

The forced isolation of Gaza tears many Palestinians from their families, and in some cases even separates spouses. The report includes the testimonies of a woman whose husband was expelled from the West Bank to Gaza, and of a mother whose son has never seen his father.


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/ ... ngled.html


Israeli military reoccupation of the West Bank and Gaza—a system of military checkpoints splitting towns and villages into ghettos, curfews, closures, raids, mass demolition and destruction of houses (more than 60 000), and land expropriations—has made ordinary life impossible for everyone, and is driving Palestinian society and its institutions towards destitution. Moreover, Israel has been constructing a grotesque barrier that, when completed, will total over 400 miles—four times longer than the Berlin Wall. Extending up to 15 miles into Palestinian territory, the real purpose of the wall is permanently to lock more than 50 illegal Israeli settlements into Israel proper. This is expansive, aggressive colonisation, in defiance of the International Court of Justice in The Hague and the United Nations General Assembly resolution of last July.


Last year a UN rapporteur concluded that Gaza and the West Bank were "on the brink of a humanitarian catastrophe." The World Bank estimates that 60% of the population are subsisting at poverty level (£1.12; $2; 1.6 per day), a tripling in only three years. Half a million people are now completely dependent upon food aid, and Amnesty International has expressed concern that the Israeli army has been hampering distribution in Gaza. Over half of all households are eating only one meal per day. A study by Johns Hopkins and Al Quds universities found that 20% of children under 5 years old were anaemic, 9.3% were acutely malnourished, and a further 13.2% chronically malnourished. The doctors I met on a professional visit in March pointed to a rising prevalence of anaemia in pregnant women and low birthweight babies.


The coherence of the Palestinian health system is being destroyed. The wall will isolate 97 primary health clinics and 11 hospitals from the populations they serve. Qalqilya hospital, which primarily serves refugees, has seen a 40% fall in follow up appointments because patients cannot enter the city. There have been at least 87 documented cases (including 30 children) in which denial of access to medical treatment has led directly to deaths, including those of babies born while women were held up at checkpoints. The checkpoint at the entrance to some villages closes at 7 pm and not even ambulances can pass after this time. As a recent example, a man in a now fenced in village near Qalqilya approached the gate with his seriously ill daughter in his arms, and begged the soldiers on duty to let him pass so that he could take her to hospital. The soldiers refused, and a Palestinian doctor summoned from the other side was also refused access to the child. The doctor was obliged to attempt a physical examination, and to give the girl an injection, through the wire.

There are consistent reports of ambulances containing gravely ill people being hit by gunfire, or detained at checkpoints while drivers and paramedics are interrogated, searched, threatened, humiliated, and assaulted. Wounded men are abducted from ambulances at checkpoints and sent directly to prison. Clearly marked clinics are fired on, and doctors and other health workers shot dead on duty.


quoted in:
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publ ... _409.shtml


From August 2001 (the situation has become even more desperate since then):

Given that Gaza has the highest population density in the world, virtually no natural resources and little industry, it is totally dependent upon Israel. The Israeli lock-down has turned the area into a virtual prison.

Factories have stopped producing, as they are unable to market their goods. Prices of basic commodities have rocketed due to the cost of transporting through circuitous routes to avoid the blockade. Hundreds of buses have stopped operating, adding to the difficulties of getting to work or reaching family members in need.

Israel has worked to strangle the Palestinian economy and drive the Palestinians even further into poverty and debt in numerous ways. It has withheld payment of most of the tax and VAT payments from the Palestinian Authority (PA) since the beginning of the intifada, preventing the PA from paying its employees. This is a direct breach of the Paris Accords, which state that Israel must return the money it collects on behalf of the PA within six days.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/aug2001/pal-a20.shtml
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Postby John E. Nemo » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:07 pm

Truth4Youth wrote:I have no problem with Jews. I've called into to Americna Free Press writer Michael Collins Piper's show a number of times and have disagreed with him on subjects like his negative views of the Talmud and his views on the Holocaust. It's sad that I have to state that before pointing out that I'm not particularly pro-Israel, I guess it just goes to show how the "anti-fascist" side of parapolitical research is screwed up. The "anti-fascists" are just like the progressives- comforted by their "intellectually superiority" while they laugh at how screwed up the world is and how it can't get any worse, blah, lblah, blah. And of course they forget to look for solutions!

And if we're going to say how we're sick of the Jew bashing on this board I have to say I'm sick of the Libertarian bashing on this board. Keep killing off any chance of the old right and new left uniting guys, you're doing a fantastic job!


Fair enough, Truthie.
Well said and I like the way you rattled your saber at both sides.

One of the BIG problems that I have with the Libertarians is that I know too many of them.
I've tried to put aside my idealogical differences with right wingers and focus on our shared enemies, the NWO.

Unfortunately, talk that started with "Israel does bad things" (a point that I DO concede) often slides down the slippery slope into talk of the Zionist Occupied Government.
This quickly degenerates into quotes from the Protocols and ends with talk of Holocaust revisionism and I leave when they make jokes like "I say 6 million more".

I don't think that all Libertarians are like this, but I do feel that you just can't trust anything that's All White and On The Right.

I also think Kultie's right.
I think the extremists on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict deserve each other.

I had a very close friend who was from the Middle East.
In our talks, I agreed that Israel did some horrible things, but she would never concede that the Palestinian bombers are also doing horrible things.

Our friendship ended when she said that she wanted to go to Israel and become a "martyr", i.e. blow up a bus filled with innocent women and children.
Her entire family encouraged her to do this, as well.

I sincerely hope that she changed her mind.
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Postby John E. Nemo » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:38 pm

Look what evil, evil Israel is doing now !!!!!!

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123806

87 Terrorists Being Released Today

by Hillel Fendel

(IsraelNN.com) Delayed by a few hours, Olmert's gesture to Abbas - the release of 87 terrorist would-be murderers from Israeli prisons - has begun.

The 87 terrorists, none of whom actually succeeded in their attempts to murder Jews, are being released in keeping with a good-will "propping-up" gesture on the part of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his government towards Fatah/Palestinian Authority chairman Mahmoud Abbas
.
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Postby AlicetheKurious » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:40 pm

Unfortunately, talk that started with "Israel does bad things" (a point that I DO concede) often slides down the slippery slope into talk of the Zionist Occupied Government.
This quickly degenerates into quotes from the Protocols and ends with talk of Holocaust revisionism and I leave when they make jokes like "I say 6 million more".


That's just silly. So, according to you, "Israel does bad things" is a meaningful statement, beyond which is a "slippery slope".

How about "Israel is systematically killing a helpless imprisoned population"?

How about "Israel is stealing the resources of another people, starving them, torturing them, and depriving them of their freedom, because they are not Jews, while encouraging and even paying foreign Jews to replace them"?

How about "Israel is in violation of more international laws and UN resolutions than any other 'state' on earth"? and

"It only gets away with it because the U.S. supports it financially at the expense of its own citizens, and abuses the UN veto to prevent enforcement of international law"?

See? I dared to step beyond "Israel does bad things" and never ONCE mentioned the Protocols or made sick jokes.

Indeed, the only sick joke here, is your thinking that "Israel does bad things" marks the limit of what others should be allowed to say.
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Postby AlicetheKurious » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:02 pm

Look what evil, evil Israel is doing now !!!!!!


For pete's sake, that kind of crap only works when you can control the flow of information. A little context here:


In a report (January 2007) of the UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, John Dugard writes:

"There are some 9,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails charged with or convicted of security offences, which range from violent acts against the Israeli Defence Forces to anti-Israeli political activities. This figure includes some 400 children and over 100 women. In addition there are over 700 administrative detainees, i.e., persons held without charge or trial, simply on the ground that the occupying Power regards them as security risks."

"There are serious complaints about the treatment, trial and imprisonment of prisoners. Pre-trial detention is accompanied by prolonged isolation and lengthy interrogation in painful positions. Threats, deception and sleep deprivation are essential features of this process. Due process of law is undermined by trial before military courts and the obstructions placed in the way of defence counsel.

"Prison conditions are poor and family visits are rare. Israel holds political prisoners in jails in Israel rather than in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, in violation of article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and then refuses the families of many of the prisoners the right to visit them. [...]

"Since 1967 over 650,000 Palestinians have been held in Israeli prisons. Hardly a family in Palestine has therefore been untouched by the Israeli prison system "

Most homes are raided at night and families are awakened by armed Israeli soldiers breaking in, abusing and abducting one or more members of the family - usually the head of the family or the eldest son.


Arrests are invariably traumatic for the family and humiliating for the victim as women and girls watch their brother, son or father being blindfolded, handcuffed, placed in a compromising position, beaten and then taken away to an unknown destination. They are not told the reason for their detention, how long they will be there or even sometimes where they are. Many are in prisons in Israel, not in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) at all, in direct contravention of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Administrative detainees have committed no crimes, even by Israeli law. No legal advice or lawyer is made available to the detainees. Sometimes there is no trial at all, sometimes it is delayed indefinitely, and when there is a trial it is in a military court of law. Many detainees are held indefinitely with their terms or interrogation periods being continually renewed. Under international humanitarian law, prisoners should be given medical help should they require it; it is mostly denied them. Genital mistreatment is an unofficial policy.

There are hundreds of children in prison from all over Palestine.

It is a breach of international humanitarian law to imprison children (persons under the age of 18 ), yet there are hundreds in prison from all over Palestine. The children, under international human-rights law, should be provided with basic education during their time in prison. Instead the Israelis attempt to turn them into collaborators. Often the children are tied up and left in a room with a dog and only allowed out once they have signed a confession or other documents - a tactic employed with adult prisoners too.


http://www.shunpiking.com/ol0404/0404-OP-PPD2007.htm
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Postby Truth4Youth » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:47 pm

John E. Nemo wrote:One of the BIG problems that I have with the Libertarians is that I know too many of them.
I've tried to put aside my idealogical differences with right wingers and focus on our shared enemies, the NWO.

Unfortunately, talk that started with "Israel does bad things" (a point that I DO concede) often slides down the slippery slope into talk of the Zionist Occupied Government.
This quickly degenerates into quotes from the Protocols and ends with talk of Holocaust revisionism and I leave when they make jokes like "I say 6 million more".

I don't think that all Libertarians are like this, but I do feel that you just can't trust anything that's All White and On The Right.


I think you'd be suprised by the number of intelligent Libertarians out there who are working together with progressives in this fight. One that comes to mind is Scott Horton and Charles Goyette, two radio hosts at antiwar.com. Check out the interviews they've interviewed a number of progressives:

http://antiwar.com/blog/category/antiwar-radio

John E. Nemo wrote:I also think Kultie's right.
I think the extremists on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict deserve each other.

I had a very close friend who was from the Middle East.
In our talks, I agreed that Israel did some horrible things, but she would never concede that the Palestinian bombers are also doing horrible things.

Our friendship ended when she said that she wanted to go to Israel and become a "martyr", i.e. blow up a bus filled with innocent women and children.
Her entire family encouraged her to do this, as well.

I sincerely hope that she changed her mind.


While I generally would say that I am sympathetic to Palestinians I must concede with you on what you said here. Keep in mind though the concept of "blowback." Alot of this stuff has to do with foreign policy as well as a twisted and dangerous tendency the US has to play both sides of a conflict (US arms deal to Saudi Arabia followed by a US arms deal to Israel is an example).

The other problem is that the terrorist threat is looked at as inhuman. The fact is that these terrorists are people (albeit ones that are taking the wrong road) and they are angry for a reason. This is not about "kill for Allah" or any of that bull. It is MUCH more complicated than that.
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Postby chlamor » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:00 am

2. The Palestinians are quite justified in "resisting," as long as it is doing so against legitimate military targets. Pizza parlours, restaurants, school busses, kindergartens, whole towns are NOT military targets. Military targets would be places where the active military are found; bases, checkpoints, convoys, etc. For the record, I do not support any Israeli policy which deliberately targets innocent civilians (ie civilians engaged in their daily business.) I do support Israel's right to secure the safety of her citizens.

3. I support Israel's right to exist and zionism which supports that part. I do not support land grabs and have SAID so before on this forum. I believe that given the lack of treaties and hence borders, that the issue of who gets what is moot until that happens. I believe that much of the demonization that goes on around that issue ignores that simple fact for precisely that reason; demonization of Israel.

4. I support a two state solution obtained via negotiation of two viable peace partners. The wishes of others do not matter in that regard except as it promotes the interests and rights of both sides.

As far as logic is concerned, when I hear the word issued from you I glaze over since all I have seen from you is, as Jeff has labeled it, agitprop. You have nothing to offer beyond continued strife, violence and lies.


This is clearly the language of the oppressor.

What is illustrated here is the very nature of culture and imperialism. I suspect that the poster who recites this garbage does not even know how they have come to echo these horrendous concepts.

So for a further examination the poster might want to examine, and answer here if possible, a few questions that are important in their assumptions. This is not to merely get a response from a single poster on an internet board but to see how this works in the larger world as reflected from such attitudes.

First note the condescendion in "The Palestinians are justified in..." with "resisting" placed in quotes along with the rest of it. Notice the implication that in this comment the Palestinians are intentionally targeting civilians but said poster (and the Israeli gov't, NY Times, US Gov't etc...) decries the the direct targeting of Israeli citizens with the caveat that Israel has the right to secure the safety of it's citizens. What this actually means in detail is not examined by the poster any more than this standard rhetoric is questioned by The Papers of Record in the USA and elsewhere.

To what length would one go to "secure" (note the language) the safety of "her" citizens. Slaughter is the answer. Ask any pilgrim.

When one argues "Israel's right to exist" what is meant? What is this thing- "Israel?" How does this entity exist? Who birthed it? Why?

The comment about Israel having a right to exist ultimately is hollow. It holds no meaning. If anyone disagrees please give a detailed response. It's a ludicrous as thinking "America has a right to exist" or "Venezuela has a right to exist" etc. It's propaganda dutifully saying nothing in the interests of power.

So we see that the poster does not support land grabs. Is this a recent development? Does the poster not support land grabs that occurred in the 1980's? The 1950's? Just those that are happening in our lifetimes?

And how does not supporting "Land Grabs", which is an antiseptic term for mass slaughter (do you want details?), conflict with the "right to secure the safety of the citizens in the Nation-State's (Israel in this case) right to exist?"

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Postby theeKultleeder » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:38 am

chlamor wrote:This is clearly the language of the oppressor.


The comment about Israel having a right to exist ultimately is hollow. It holds no meaning. If anyone disagrees please give a detailed response. It's a ludicrous as thinking "America has a right to exist" or "Venezuela has a right to exist" etc. It's propaganda dutifully saying nothing in the interests of power.



States have no more "right to exist" than corporations do. They are fabricated entities having no existence in reality. They are fictions.

I am not a flag, I am not a loyalty oath, I am not a boundary, I am not a gun.

People have a "right to exist." They have a right to live on the planet Earth; they have a right to breathe and eat where they are born; they have a right to associate with other people.

And there is the complication.

Some of you think it's crazy to come in here blazing with metaphysics and philosophy, but the fact is, as long as a "State" exists in the minds of people, it will exist. Other types of organization is possible, but first we have to hold them in our minds and let those ideals direct our behavior.

Chlamor, the phrase "language of the oppressor" only makes sense to those who already agree with you. To others, it is obtuse inflammatory language. But I happen to agree with you, so you are correct here :)

The "language of delusion" maybe? The "tyranny of the taken-for-granted" perhaps?

"Beliefs pre-condition the observation of reality" maybe?

You only believe what your momma tole you? Let's be careful in the jungle of ideology and propaganda.

Be a living human, feel the reality of life, of pain and pleasure, of freedom and bondage (even to ideas) and help to liberate both self and other.

It can't happen unless both are included!
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Postby Doodad » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:47 am

This is clearly the language of the oppressor.


An unsupported hypothesis automatically invalidates the hypothesis so I do not feel compelled to address any of your baseless accusations or questions. That they are baseless is evident from the fact they derive from an unsupported hypothesis. And, even then, they derive no definition from the hypothesis even if it were valid.

However, astute posters will likely see that your intention is something other than proving your stated hypothesis; especially in light of the window dressing. Perhaps I will return the favour

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Postby AlicetheKurious » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:53 am

Hey, Doodoo, if that picture scares you, I have one of my kid when he was five, wearing a Dracula costume that'll have you wetting your pants.

You zionists sure are scared of little kids. That's maybe why the zionist soldiers are killing so damn many of them in cold-blood:

Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl

· Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
· Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Wednesday November 16, 2005

Guardian

An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

The soldier, who has only been identified as "Captain R", was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.

The manner of Iman's killing, and the revelation of a tape recording in which the captain is warned that she was just a child who was "scared to death", made the shooting one of the most controversial since the Palestinian intifada erupted five years ago even though hundreds of other children have also died.

After the verdict, Iman's father, Samir al-Hams, said the army never intended to hold the soldier accountable.

"They did not charge him with Iman's murder, only with small offences, and now they say he is innocent of those even though he shot my daughter so many times," he said. "This was the cold-blooded murder of a girl. The soldier murdered her once and the court has murdered her again. What is the message? They are telling their soldiers to kill Palestinian children."

The military court cleared the soldier of illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and perverting the course of justice by asking soldiers under his command to alter their accounts of the incident.

Capt R's lawyers argued that the "confirmation of the kill" after a suspect is shot was a standard Israeli military practice to eliminate terrorist threats.

Following the verdict, Capt R burst into tears, turned to the public benches and said: "I told you I was innocent."

The army's official account said that Iman was shot for crossing into a security zone carrying her schoolbag which soldiers feared might contain a bomb. It is still not known why the girl ventured into the area but witnesses described her as at least 100 yards from the military post which was in any case well protected.

A recording of radio exchanges between Capt R and his troops obtained by Israeli television revealed that from the beginning soldiers identified Iman as a child.

In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

Although the military speculated that Iman might have been trying to "lure" the soldiers out of their base so they could be attacked by accomplices, Capt R made the decision to lead some of his troops into the open. Shortly afterwards he can be heard on the recording saying that he has shot the girl and, believing her dead, then "confirmed the kill".

"I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over," he said.

Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.

On the tape, Capt R then "clarifies" to the soldiers under his command why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the [security] zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed."

At no point did the Israeli troops come under attack.

The prosecution case was damaged when a soldier who initially said he had seen Capt R point his weapon at the girl's body and open fire later told the court he had fabricated the story.

Capt R claimed that he had not fired the shots at the girl but near her. However, Dr Mohammed al-Hams, who inspected the child's body at Rafah hospital, counted numerous wounds. "She has at least 17 bullets in several parts of the body, all along the chest, hands, arms, legs," he told the Guardian shortly afterwards. "The bullets were large and shot from a close distance. The most serious injuries were to her head. She had three bullets in the head. One bullet was shot from the right side of the face beside the ear. It had a big impact on the whole face."

The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically". But after some of the soldiers under his command went to the Israeli press to give a different version, the military police launched a separate investigation after which he was charged.

Capt R claimed that the soldiers under his command were out to get him because they are Jewish and he is Druze.

The transcript

The following is a recording of a three-way conversation that took place between a soldier in a watchtower, an army operations room and Capt R, who shot the girl

From the watchtower "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward." "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?" "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death." "I think that one of the positions took her out." "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

From the operations room "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"

Watchtower "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

A few minutes later, Iman is shot from one of the army posts

Watchtower "I think that one of the positions took her out."

Captain R "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

Capt R then "clarifies" why he killed Iman

"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian News and Media Limited 2007

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858, ... 552,00.htm


Nevertheless [Captain R, the killer of Iman] was subsequently PROMOTED to the rank of Major. And, adding insult to injury for the families of Iman, on March 22, 2006 the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz Daily, reported that Israel had awarded Captain "R" 80,000 New Israeli Shekels ($17,126.00) as compensation for his trouble and NIS 2,000 as reimbursement for attorney fees.

http://www.so-sue-me.com/infanticide1.htm
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:16 am

theeKultleeder wrote:States have no more "right to exist" than corporations do. They are fabricated entities having no existence in reality. They are fictions.

I am not a flag, I am not a loyalty oath, I am not a boundary, I am not a gun.

People have a "right to exist." They have a right to live on the planet Earth; they have a right to breathe and eat where they are born; they have a right to associate with other people.

And there is the complication.

Some of you think it's crazy to come in here blazing with metaphysics and philosophy, but the fact is, as long as a "State" exists in the minds of people, it will exist. Other types of organization is possible, but first we have to hold them in our minds and let those ideals direct our behavior.

...

Be a living human, feel the reality of life, of pain and pleasure, of freedom and bondage (even to ideas) and help to liberate both self and other.

It can't happen unless both are included!


Spot on tKL

This argument always degerates into an endless projection fest. And few people who criticise Israel focus on the "State" of Israel.

Time to pump this out again:

11. The New Idol

SOMEWHERE there are still peoples and herds, but not with us, my brethren: here there are states.

A state? What is that? Well! open now your ears unto me, for now will I say unto you my word concerning the death of peoples.

A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."

It is a lie! Creators were they who created peoples, and hung a faith and a love over them: thus they served life.

Destroyers, are they who lay snares for many, and call it the state: they hang a sword and a hundred cravings over them.

Where there is still a people, there the state is not understood, but hated as the evil eye, and as sin against laws and customs.

This sign I give unto you: every people speaketh its language of good and evil: this its neighbor understandeth not. Its language hath it devised for itself in laws and customs.

But the state lieth in all languages of good and evil; and whatever it saith it lieth; and whatever it hath it hath stolen.

False is everything in it; with stolen teeth it biteth, the biting one. False are even its bowels.

Confusion of language of good and evil; this sign I give unto you as the sign of the state. Verily, the will to death, indicateth this sign! Verily, it beckoneth unto the preachers of death!

Many too many are born: for the superfluous ones was the state devised!

See just how it enticeth them to it, the many-too-many! How it swalloweth and cheweth and recheweth them!

"On earth there is nothing greater than I: it is I who am the regulating finger of God."—thus roareth the monster. And not only the long-eared and short-sighted fall upon their knees!

Ah! even in your ears, ye great souls, it whispereth its gloomy lies! Ah! it findeth out the rich hearts which willingly lavish themselves!

Yea, it findeth you out too, ye conquerors of the old God! Weary ye became of the conflict, and now your weariness serveth the new idol!

Heroes and honorable ones, it would fain set up around it, the new idol! Gladly it basketh in the sunshine of good consciences,—the cold monster!

Everything will it give you, if ye worship it, the new idol: thus it purchaseth the luster of your virtue, and the glance of your proud eyes.

It seeketh to allure by means of you, the many-too-many! Yea, a hellish artifice hath here been devised, a death-horse jingling with the trappings of divine honors!

Yea, a dying for many hath here been devised, which glorifieth itself as life: verily, a hearty service unto all preachers of death!

The state, I call it, where all are poison-drinkers, the good and the bad: the state, where all lose themselves, the good and the bad: the state, where the slow suicide of all—is called "life."

Just see these superfluous ones! They steal the works of the inventors and the treasures of the wise. Culture, they call their theft—and everything becometh sickness and trouble unto them!

Just see these superfluous ones! Sick are they always; they vomit their bile and call it a newspaper. They devour one another, and cannot even digest themselves.

Just see these superfluous ones! Wealth they acquire and become poorer thereby. Power they seek for, and above all, the lever of power, much money—these impotent ones!

See them clamber, these nimble apes! They clamber over one another, and thus scuffle into the mud and the abyss.

Towards the throne they all strive: it is their madness—as if happiness sat on the throne! Ofttimes sitteth filth on the throne.—and ofttimes also the throne on filth.

Madmen they all seem to me, and clambering apes, and too eager. Badly smelleth their idol to me, the cold monster: badly they all smell to me, these idolaters.

My brethren, will ye suffocate in the fumes of their maws and appetites! Better break the windows and jump into the open air!

Do go out of the way of the bad odor! Withdraw from the idolatry of the superfluous!

Do go out of the way of the bad odor! Withdraw from the steam of these human sacrifices!

Open still remaineth the earth for great souls. Empty are still many sites for lone ones and twain ones, around which floateth the odor of tranquil seas.

Open still remaineth a free life for great souls. Verily, he who possesseth little is so much the less possessed: blessed be moderate poverty!

There, where the state ceaseth- there only commenceth the man who is not superfluous: there commenceth the song of the necessary ones, the single and irreplaceable melody.

There, where the state ceaseth—pray look thither, my brethren! Do ye not see it, the rainbow and the bridges of the Superman?—

Thus spake Zarathustra.


Some mad German wrote that.

http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/zarapt1.htm#idol
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Postby Doodad » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:34 am

theeKultleeder wrote:
chlamor wrote:This is clearly the language of the oppressor.


The comment about Israel having a right to exist ultimately is hollow. It holds no meaning. If anyone disagrees please give a detailed response. It's a ludicrous as thinking "America has a right to exist" or "Venezuela has a right to exist" etc. It's propaganda dutifully saying nothing in the interests of power.



States have no more "right to exist" than corporations do. They are fabricated entities having no existence in reality. They are fictions.

I am not a flag, I am not a loyalty oath, I am not a boundary, I am not a gun.

People have a "right to exist." They have a right to live on the planet Earth; they have a right to breathe and eat where they are born; they have a right to associate with other people.

And there is the complication.

Some of you think it's crazy to come in here blazing with metaphysics and philosophy, but the fact is, as long as a "State" exists in the minds of people, it will exist. Other types of organization is possible, but first we have to hold them in our minds and let those ideals direct our behavior.

Chlamor, the phrase "language of the oppressor" only makes sense to those who already agree with you. To others, it is obtuse inflammatory language. But I happen to agree with you, so you are correct here :)

The "language of delusion" maybe? The "tyranny of the taken-for-granted" perhaps?

"Beliefs pre-condition the observation of reality" maybe?

You only believe what your momma tole you? Let's be careful in the jungle of ideology and propaganda.

Be a living human, feel the reality of life, of pain and pleasure, of freedom and bondage (even to ideas) and help to liberate both self and other.

It can't happen unless both are included!


Unfortunately, you are not King of the World so states continue to exist until everybody comes around to YOUR new world order. Right now, you have your work cut out for you.
Doodad
 

Postby Doodad » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:36 am

Hey, Doodoo, if that picture scares you, I have one of my kid when he was five, wearing a Dracula costume that'll have you wetting your pants.


How can "window dressing" scare me, mAlice?

:P
Doodad
 

Postby theeKultleeder » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:33 am

Doodad wrote:
Unfortunately, you are not King of the World so states continue to exist until everybody comes around to YOUR new world order. Right now, you have your work cut out for you.


That is a completely idiotic statement. Again, you ignore substance and move in for the personal attacks and using emotional appeal to undermine someone else's position. Thus you present to the world here a completely fallacious and snarky little personality.

I am King of My Condo, and my cats are subject to my will. I am a Prince in this World, a Sovereign, as are all my neighbors. Even you could attain to such a Majestic State, if you could but crack the egg without breaking the yolk.
theeKultleeder
 

Postby AlicetheKurious » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:33 am

Ooooh! mAlice: Image

The power of projection...
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