The Fire Pit is Interesting

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The Fire Pit is Interesting

Postby theeKultleeder » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:49 pm

Maybe it's the subconsciousness of the rigint board or something.

Did you know that the list of alleged Zionist quotes posted recently by chlamor has been fire-pitted once before? It's true, it's right there in the fire pit.

First try: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:01 am

1) "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

2) "We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

And so on...



Second try: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:24 am

1) "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

2) "We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

And so on...


Is he going to do this every few months? BTW, he changed the post title. So clever!
theeKultleeder
 

Postby H_C_E » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:10 pm

Yes, it certainly is. What is the intended purpose of the firey pit?

HCE
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Postby Doodad » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:19 pm

H_C_E wrote:Yes, it certainly is. What is the intended purpose of the firey pit?

HCE


BBQ'd weenies.
Doodad
 

Re: The Fire Pit is Interesting

Postby yesferatu » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:29 pm

theeKultleeder wrote:Maybe it's the subconsciousness of the rigint board or something.


What I find interesting is the recent thread that was "pitted" after Alice and myself wrote posts which FLAMED NO R.I. MEMBER.

I guess I am curious if the fire pit is not really a place to deposit out-of-control flame wars, but rather a pit to throw threads where posts suddenly veer into opinions that are to be censored.

See if you can spot any flaming (the supposed reason for the existence of the fire pit) of other members in the last few posts prior to being pitted:
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=13661&start=60

Fire pit or censor hole?
yesferatu
 

Re: The Fire Pit is Interesting

Postby theeKultleeder » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:39 pm

yesferatu wrote:
theeKultleeder wrote:Maybe it's the subconsciousness of the rigint board or something.


What I find interesting is the recent thread that was "pitted" after Alice and myself wrote posts which FLAMED NO R.I. MEMBER.

I guess I am curious if the fire pit is not really a place to deposit out-of-control flame wars, but rather a pit to throw threads where posts suddenly veer into opinions that are to be censored.

See if you can spot any flaming (the supposed reason for the existence of the fire pit) of other members in the last few posts prior to being pitted:
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=13661&start=60

Fire pit or censor hole?


Well, HCE has a good point, and I was being a naughty boy by bringing it up. I guess what I was getting at is many of the key quotes chlamor employs have been debunked. Either he is blissfully unaware (inexcusable for a smart guy like him) or doesn't care about accuracy, and is thus intellectually dishonest.

Yesferatu, I guess you're right, except I am big enough to accept Jeff's good will and informed intentions (wisdom), so it is censorship, but a responsibly carried out censorship.

I nominate this thread for the firepit.
theeKultleeder
 

Postby theeKultleeder » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:47 pm

Doodad wrote:
BBQ'd weenies.


= Doodad in helle!
theeKultleeder
 

Postby orz » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:45 am

Did you know that the list of alleged Zionist quotes posted recently by chlamor has been fire-pitted once before? It's true, it's right there in the fire pit.

So? It was regurgitated unsourced anti-"zionist" fan fiction copypasta the first time round and nothing changed the second time.
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Postby Doodad » Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:04 am

orz wrote:
Did you know that the list of alleged Zionist quotes posted recently by chlamor has been fire-pitted once before? It's true, it's right there in the fire pit.

So? It was regurgitated unsourced anti-"zionist" fan fiction copypasta the first time round and nothing changed the second time.


If at first you don't succeed.
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Postby AlicetheKurious » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:35 am

I don't understand why that thread was fire-pitted.

About those quotes, if I'm not mistaken, the vast majority were accurate. Most of the rest were "in dispute" or not adequately sourced, such as the one attributed to Sharon, which hardly represents racist malice against an innocent lamb, who needs protection.

The man is a stone killer of women and children. We're not even talking about chickenhawk orders for people to be killed. Sharon has been known to enjoy participating in the wet-work himself.

So, what's wrong with just pointing out that the actual quote, attributed to a live broadcast on Israel Army Radio, which many people heard, is unverified?

If some of the other quotes are not accurate or taken out of context, the fact remains that most of the others are true. To use the wrong ones as a poison pill to discredit the others, and the entire thread, is an overreaction.

Posters who repeat all kinds of lies about "Islamofascist Nazis", or who justify Israeli murder of Palestinian civilians by saying that "they (the murdered Palestinians) are all killers", or who argue that Iranians are a threat that should militarily "dealt with" because of their RELIGION, don't get fire-pitted, as far as I know.

I would be the first to attack any poster who tried to promote hatred of Jews for being Jews, just as I do those who attack Muslims for being Muslim, or similar irrational hatred of an entire category of people, regardless of individual responsibility.

Yet it would never occur to me to ask for a thread to be fire-pitted, unless posters began attacking each other personally, or used obscenities. In which case, I would ban the offensive poster, rather than kill the debate.

But that's just my opinion.
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Postby H_C_E » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:51 pm

BBQ'd weenies? Yer sick Dood. Burnt weenie sandwiches for me.

Seriously though, I saw the same thing as others. There were threads in there that didn't seem to have anything defamitory in them, no "flaming" or anything I could see. There are some that could use a bit of explanation.

but all in all, who gives a f*ck anyway (ending as I began with a Zappa reference)

HCE
Abdul, wax the beach with postal regret portions. Nevermind the o-ring leader he got not the cheese duster from the dachshund dimension or even pillow frighteners.
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Postby chlamor » Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:18 pm

The thread should not have been eliminated.

As for the quotes I've yet to see anyone refute them quote by quote. I asked a prominent supporter of Israel some very salient questions and these were dismissed and ignored not so artfully. Please look over the thread again and take note of that.

As for the change from 28 to 27 I did that in deference to Jeff.

If you dispute the quotes please go through them one by one and debunk them. For every one that you debunk, if any, I guarantee you I could pull up quite a few that are as bad or worse than what was quoted. And this is only in the public arena what is said privately would make those quotes listed seem bland without doubt.

I was very surprised and quite disgusted to see the thread hijacked and erased from view. I wasn't around when it happened so could not address any of the matters until it was too late.

Another interesting thing to note about The Fire Pit is how many topics in the Fire Pit are related to Israel-Palestine. That should be disturbing to everyone. In fact someone should do a count and put out the percentage. No single topic has received so much erasure/censorship I would guess. In fact nothing would come close. Doesn't that bother people here?


many of the key quotes chlamor employs have been debunked.


First you say "many" then you say "key" quotes so there is an impossibility here. Aren't all the quotes "key" or just a few? Anyway that is rather confusing.

In short prove it.

Let's assume that it is many that would imply how many?

Or if it is just the "key" quotes then which ones?

I wonder if someone would have posted 30 quotes from apartheid South African leaders if there would've been an uproar even if the "key" quotes were mistaken. The answer is obvious as is the hypocrisy. I take it back, I'm not surprised.
Liberal thy name is hypocrisy. What's new?
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Re: The Fire Pit is Interesting

Postby yesferatu » Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:28 pm

theeKultleeder wrote:Yesferatu, I guess you're right, except I am big enough to accept Jeff's good will and informed intentions (wisdom), so it is censorship, but a responsibly carried out censorship.


"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." - Noam Chomsky

I won't label that "wisdom".

Did you not even notice the time stamps?

I wrote

<<AlicetheKurious wrote:
See? I dared to step beyond "Israel does bad things" and never ONCE mentioned the Protocols or made sick jokes.

Indeed, the only sick joke here, is your thinking that "Israel does bad things" marks the limit of what others should be allowed to say.>>

To which I added:

<<But don't you understand? Your accusers have the ability to crawl into your skull and KNOW that you were really secretly thinking of protocol quotes, and they KNOW that we really don't have the moral fortitude to condemn zionists without our helpless brains switching crucial gears into full blown Jewish genocidal mania. The slope is just that slippery.
So saying "israel has their share of the blame" is as far as you are allowed. Otherwise, you cannot trust yourself.

You must treat the Palestinian/"israeli"problem with a 50/50 fault standard. And well, if you are so brash as to say it is 100% zionist fault, then you MUST want to kill Jews.

Don't you see? They were victims of fascism. Why, it is inconcievable they would turn around and support a fascist/racist state. And really, if it appears that seems to have happened, well.....we kind of have to lay off and let them vent their fascism for this ongoing 60 plus years without condemning them, because, gosh, they've been thru so much.

Of course, when I say "they" were victims of fascism you will find that the fascist racist zionists at issue here, like, for example, Golda Meir, was safe and protected in Milwaukee during the holocaust. And then Menachem Begin, who lost his parents in the holocaust, well, we have to accept his bloodthirsty terrorist activities against a people who had nothing to do with that, because well, just because.....after all, they might be jehovahs chosen....gosh, we better watch what we say....better to err on the side of being on good terms with a desert demiurge who is insane.
And never mind those pesky Jews who renounce zionism on the basis of the torah. Ignore them. They must not understand the teachings of Pastor Hagee...>>

With no flame bait/flame war in this post, it was stricken 2 minutes after posting.

Come on. "Wisdom". Get real.
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Postby MASONIC PLOT » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:24 pm

I dont like censorship any more than anyone else on here does and if you go back to my early days you will see that I butted heads with Jeff on that issue for a long time before I finally tried to really understand his intentions, once I did I came to appreciate what he was trying to accomplish. Basically for the health of the forum Jeff just cant allow unlimited free speech, if he did the place would soon become stormfront part two, the board would become sick and diseased and all of us would suffer. I dont think Jeff fire-pitts threads because he doesnt like them personally, I think he does it because he wants the board to always be a place where we can all come and enjoy ourselves.
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Postby sunny » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:30 pm

Another interesting thing to note about The Fire Pit is how many topics in the Fire Pit are related to Israel-Palestine.


RI is no different than any other blog or forum when this issue comes up. Go and check out Glenn Greenwald today. He's been criticizing the ADL for failing to condemn Nazi analogies from the right, while jumping all over far less imflammatory ones from the left. So far there are only a few pages of responses, but already the thread has degenerated into accusations of insensitivity to anti-semitism from one or two commenters and the indignant denials. The subject itself is diverted and obscured. When this issue comes up at DKos, it's not just a fire pit but an inferno, with people getting troll rated, flamed, demands to ban and so on. The other night, there was a post at FDL about Desmond TuTu being disinvited to speak at St. Thomas University. That thread degenerated to such a point that one of the pro-Israeli posters offered $10 to anyone who would take him on physically. In that thread, some comments referred to anotheer thread in which the same poster threatened to have some of them disbarred.

In addition to today, I've noticed a couple of anonymous commenters at Greenwald who chime in whenever Israel is mentioned and accuse Glenn and others of Blood libel and of wanting to incinerate Jews in their Synagogues. So now we are seeing not just accusations of anti-Semitism when this comes up, but far more reprehensible tactic of accusing others of harboring genocidal intentions toward Jews
just for criticizing a country without a constitution, internationally recognized borders, a population of Arabs with third class status, and a 60 year history of ethnic cleansing, Apartheid, and murder of Palestinians.

The fact of the matter is, many of those quotes can be traced to it's original source. The fact of the matter is, just as in this country there are right-wing racists, there are right-wing racists in Israel. Just as in the US alot of racist policies have been implemented, so it is in Israel. Around the world and according to many, many reputable organizations and people who have seen the horrors in the West Bank and Gaza first hand, what is being done to the Palestinians is beyond dispute. Any and all efforts to deny and or justify the genocide of the Palestinians comes from either blind ignorance, or moral degeneracy. In this case, there is no "good people can disagree." No, good people cannot disagree. Good people disagree with genocide, if they know about it and understand what is happening.

And that, my friends, is why we have such a hard time discussing the issue. If the good people of this country knew as much about what is happening to the Palestinians, what has been happening to them for 60 years, as they know about Britney Spears, then there would be an uproar. Demands to stop funding Israel, demands that we stop fighting Israels enemies, demands that we stop what is happening to the Palestinians.

Believe me, I can understand the fear of an anti-Semitic backlash if the horrors were truly unmasked. Memories of the holocaust not only eplains this, but also the desire to have a country of their own. But that is the danger of so tightly binding Jewish identity to the State of Israel and then
completely and utterly defending everything it does. It is the Good German Syndrome. Because many Germans refused to condemn what was happening to Jews and others, they have rightly been held responsible in the eyes of history.

Fortunately, many Jews have condemned, in the harshest terms possible, Israels treatment of the Palestinians, most prominent among them Norman Finkelstein, Rabbi Michael Lerner, Jeffrey Blankfort, and now to an increasing degree, Glenn Greenwald. There are many others. I urge all Jews to join them, to really search within yourselves: If you abhor the genocide of Native Americans in this country, why do you not abhor what is happening NOW to the Palestinians? We can stop this without blame being attached to the whole Jewish race. In fact, we MUST do this.

Your voice is needed. Liberal Jewish voices were indispensible during the Civil Rights movement. They put their bodies on the line. Don't abandon your principles when it comes to Israel. Speak up NOW.
Choose love
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Postby Doodad » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:10 pm

sunny wrote:
Another interesting thing to note about The Fire Pit is how many topics in the Fire Pit are related to Israel-Palestine.


RI is no different than any other blog or forum when this issue comes up. Go and check out Glenn Greenwald today. He's been criticizing the ADL for failing to condemn Nazi analogies from the right, while jumping all over far less imflammatory ones from the left. So far there are only a few pages of responses, but already the thread has degenerated into accusations of insensitivity to anti-semitism from one or two commenters and the indignant denials. The subject itself is diverted and obscured. When this issue comes up at DKos, it's not just a fire pit but an inferno, with people getting troll rated, flamed, demands to ban and so on. The other night, there was a post at FDL about Desmond TuTu being disinvited to speak at St. Thomas University. That thread degenerated to such a point that one of the pro-Israeli posters offered $10 to anyone who would take him on physically. In that thread, some comments referred to anotheer thread in which the same poster threatened to have some of them disbarred.

In addition to today, I've noticed a couple of anonymous commenters at Greenwald who chime in whenever Israel is mentioned and accuse Glenn and others of Blood libel and of wanting to incinerate Jews in their Synagogues. So now we are seeing not just accusations of anti-Semitism when this comes up, but far more reprehensible tactic of accusing others of harboring genocidal intentions toward Jews
just for criticizing a country without a constitution, internationally recognized borders, a population of Arabs with third class status, and a 60 year history of ethnic cleansing, Apartheid, and murder of Palestinians.

The fact of the matter is, many of those quotes can be traced to it's original source. The fact of the matter is, just as in this country there are right-wing racists, there are right-wing racists in Israel. Just as in the US alot of racist policies have been implemented, so it is in Israel. Around the world and according to many, many reputable organizations and people who have seen the horrors in the West Bank and Gaza first hand, what is being done to the Palestinians is beyond dispute. Any and all efforts to deny and or justify the genocide of the Palestinians comes from either blind ignorance, or moral degeneracy. In this case, there is no "good people can disagree." No, good people cannot disagree. Good people disagree with genocide, if they know about it and understand what is happening.

And that, my friends, is why we have such a hard time discussing the issue. If the good people of this country knew as much about what is happening to the Palestinians, what has been happening to them for 60 years, as they know about Britney Spears, then there would be an uproar. Demands to stop funding Israel, demands that we stop fighting Israels enemies, demands that we stop what is happening to the Palestinians.

Believe me, I can understand the fear of an anti-Semitic backlash if the horrors were truly unmasked. Memories of the holocaust not only eplains this, but also the desire to have a country of their own. But that is the danger of so tightly binding Jewish identity to the State of Israel and then
completely and utterly defending everything it does. It is the Good German Syndrome. Because many Germans refused to condemn what was happening to Jews and others, they have rightly been held responsible in the eyes of history.

Fortunately, many Jews have condemned, in the harshest terms possible, Israels treatment of the Palestinians, most prominent among them Norman Finkelstein, Rabbi Michael Lerner, Jeffrey Blankfort, and now to an increasing degree, Glenn Greenwald. There are many others. I urge all Jews to join them, to really search within yourselves: If you abhor the genocide of Native Americans in this country, why do you not abhor what is happening NOW to the Palestinians? We can stop this without blame being attached to the whole Jewish race. In fact, we MUST do this.

Your voice is needed. Liberal Jewish voices were indispensible during the Civil Rights movement. They put their bodies on the line. Don't abandon your principles when it comes to Israel. Speak up NOW.


By all means speak up. Just try and avoid the jingoism such as sunny just posted. By repeating the foreign policy talking points of the former Soviets and the Palestinian narrative, she engages in jingoism of the worst kind. It' s not enough evidently to abhor what is happening, to criticize specific policies and actions; she feels compelled to repeat the jingoistic trash of hypocrites.

There is no need for this, but she chooses to do so anyway.
Doodad
 

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