Reminder: no personal attacks

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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby Usrename » Sat May 19, 2012 2:11 am

JackRiddler wrote:This dismayed and increasingly angered a group of us who just can't help having a problem with the defense of Nazi propaganda.


I'm having difficulty figuring out what, specifically, you mean by Nazi propaganda. There's no talk of a master race or a Third Reich, as far as I can tell. Maybe I'm just too dense, or maybe you mean anti-Semitic propaganda. In any event, I'd appreciate if you would tell me, just what you are going on about? A more interesting exercise (to me, anyhow) might be to ask if you could try and compare which political organization(s) today most closely matches the Nazi's, both in their tactics and their agenda. I'm really wondering what organization(s) could you come up with, and why?
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby JackRiddler » Sat May 19, 2012 2:23 am

Usrename wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:This dismayed and increasingly angered a group of us who just can't help having a problem with the defense of Nazi propaganda.


I'm having difficulty figuring out what, specifically, you mean by Nazi propaganda. There's no talk of a master race or a Third Reich, as far as I can tell. Maybe I'm just too dense, or maybe you mean anti-Semitic propaganda. In any event, I'd appreciate if you would tell me, just what you are going on about? A more interesting exercise (to me, anyhow) might be to ask if you could try and compare which political organization(s) today most closely matches the Nazi's, both in their tactics and their agenda. I'm really wondering what organization(s) could you come up with, and why?


Here is what I wrote in the same post you quote from here
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=34722&start=15#p462315

with bits highlighted that should answer your first question:

JackRiddler wrote:So what happened? Apparently, somewhere in the UK, thinly disguised Nazi propaganda was farted out by a middling-known saxophonist, apparently for the purpose of pissing off the unhappy family and stifling culture he endured as a child. The guy's not at all a Nazi, as far as I can see, but I don't know it's right to say his statements were disguised at all. He said Jews are the most special and incomparable evil known to the world and therefore got what was coming to them in the 1930s. This individual's statements shouldn't have meant anything because really, who cares? Who is this guy?


So I didn't say he is a Nazi, nor did I imply he is part of such a political organization or movement, or repeating every Nazi tenet about master race and a thousand-year Reich. I said he employed thinly disguised Nazi propaganda, as described in the bolded sentence. Now go read the Atzmon thread, first post, to see the quotes from him that prompted this conclusion. As for your other questions, why do you ask? Before I consider it, why don't you give your answer to it first?
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Sat May 19, 2012 2:42 am

Now 7 years of trolls chasing me around with ad-hominem attacks.
They disrupt, I get the heat.

For the umpteenth time I'll encourage mods to sanction the trollers, not their targets.
peartreed has managed to weave dozens of insults into slick alliterative posts many times now targeting me that are seconded by coarse jingofever simple screaming "bullshit" at me.

And this gets a pass. So far.
I can't image I'd get a pass to stalk usernames screaming "bullshit" at them.

I have better things to do with my time than get embroiled in their act.
So MODS. Observe the obvious and act. Please.
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby JackRiddler » Sat May 19, 2012 10:14 am

The mod job is so thankless.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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I am by virtue of its might divine,
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of partridges & pear trees

Postby IanEye » Sat May 19, 2012 10:20 am

Hugh,
I don't agree with all of your observations, but I always enjoy the way your perspective triggers my own mind to go into interesting directions and paths.

I can't quite figure out where the back and forth between you and peartreed is going, but please don't decry the use of alliterative verse in general.

peartreed may in fact be insulting you, feel free to point out any specific examples, but i often find when reading your posts that my own brain goes into a type of jabberwonky that eye quite enjoy.

it's the xtc of the alphabet soup that keeps me coming back for more, it's quite addictive.

one can't be blamed it your concoctions instill different reactions to various palates.
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sat May 19, 2012 11:19 am

Crazy Thought: let's not make this into a running complaint thread!

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - ER
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby JackRiddler » Sat May 19, 2012 11:29 am

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Crazy Thought: let's not make this into a running complaint thread!

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - ER


That has its truth, but so does this: "No need for distinctions when platitudes are handy." - Me.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby Usrename » Sat May 19, 2012 11:33 am

JackRiddler wrote:So I didn't say he is a Nazi, nor did I imply he is part of such a political organization or movement, or repeating every Nazi tenet about master race and a thousand-year Reich. I said he employed thinly disguised Nazi propaganda, as described in the bolded sentence. Now go read the Atzmon thread, first post, to see the quotes from him that prompted this conclusion. As for your other questions, why do you ask? Before I consider it, why don't you give your answer to it first?


Ahhh…. I think I understand what you’re saying. I’m sure that I wouldn’t have figured it out by reading the entire 80-page thread.

I don’t agree with your interpretation of other member’s posts. It’s a misrepresentation to say that they are supporting Nazi propaganda, because that isn’t correct at all.

I believe Atzmon is saying that it could be a practical exercise if we were to try and understand why, when the Jew were being opressed in Europe, that so many sided with the opressors instead of with the victims.

I am pretty positive that the members here who would try and explore this question are not necessarily supporting “Nazi propaganda” as you claim. Your charge is baseless, AFAICT.

Maybe WGUDN isn’t such a bad place to start with this type of analysis. I think the fundamental disagreement that most folks have with Dershowitz is that he doesn’t believe that all men are created equal, or in other words, that we all share the same human rights. This concept was also a huge part of the Nazi ideology. No one here has expressed such view, AFAIK.

My experience in discussing Israeli/Palestinian/Jewish/Muslim issues on the interwebs has been that a lot of miscommunication occurs because people don’t first, right up front, admit who are the opressors and who are the opressed. There is no parity between the opressed and the opressor. Ever.

That being said, it is impossible to jump to your conclusion that the folks who would look at the question of why so much of Europe sided with the opressors are somehow supporting Nazi propaganda. A father that teaches his daughter to avoid dangerous situations is not necessarily conceding the point that it will be her own fault if she ever gets raped (on edit) or that she actually deserved it. That’s just silly.
Last edited by Usrename on Sat May 19, 2012 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby Usrename » Sat May 19, 2012 11:44 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Now 7 years of trolls chasing me around with ad-hominem attacks.
They disrupt, I get the heat.

For the umpteenth time I'll encourage mods to sanction the trollers, not their targets.
peartreed has managed to weave dozens of insults into slick alliterative posts many times now targeting me that are seconded by coarse jingofever simple screaming "bullshit" at me.

And this gets a pass. So far.
I can't image I'd get a pass to stalk usernames screaming "bullshit" at them.

I have better things to do with my time than get embroiled in their act.
So MODS. Observe the obvious and act. Please.



I've also been following you around for the same 7 years and I've learned tons from you and your fellow travelers.

The denial and projection exhibited by some folks are sometimes just symptoms of some kind of internal struggle, a coping mechanism of sorts. In many other instances it is very likely active psyops being used in order to keep folks from organizing by disrupting the more productive discussions. I don't know of any way to tell the difference without looking behind the curtain.
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby Simulist » Sat May 19, 2012 11:53 am

Hey, Usrename! Aren't you the same "Username" who put a "curse" on all of our "houses"?

(Well, spelled slightly different, of course.)

If so... um, that was a little creepy.
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby beeblebrox » Sat May 19, 2012 12:50 pm

Usrename wrote:
My experience in discussing Israeli/Palestinian/Jewish/Muslim issues on the interwebs has been that a lot of miscommunication occurs because people don’t first, right up front, admit who are the opressors and who are the opressed. There is no parity between the opressed and the opressor. Ever.



This was my biggest frustration with that thread, the fact that some people (speaking mainly about AD) could go on and on about the evils of anti-semitism without first acknowledging the evils being perpetrated by Israel against the Palestinians, because I don't think it should be taken as a granted, it should be acknowledged right up front, so as to avoid confusion. No doubt some terrible things have been done to the jews in past, and racism against them continues today, but as of right now, this very moment in history, what is the greater evil at work? Anti-semitism, or the genocide being committed by Israel against Palestine?
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby Usrename » Sat May 19, 2012 1:14 pm

Simulist wrote:Hey, Usrename! Aren't you the same "Username" who put a "curse" on all of our "houses"?

(Well, spelled slightly different, of course.)

If so... um, that was a little creepy.


lol, that was some other creep...

I generally don't warn folks when I put a curse on them. I like to remain sort of anonymous and just watch as their life crumbles around them. It's much more satisfying that way.
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby barracuda » Sat May 19, 2012 1:36 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
Usrename wrote:
My experience in discussing Israeli/Palestinian/Jewish/Muslim issues on the interwebs has been that a lot of miscommunication occurs because people don’t first, right up front, admit who are the opressors and who are the opressed. There is no parity between the opressed and the opressor. Ever.



This was my biggest frustration with that thread, the fact that some people (speaking mainly about AD) could go on and on about the evils of anti-semitism without first acknowledging the evils being purpetrated by Israel against the Palestinians, because I don't think it should be taken as a granted, it should be acknowledged right up front, so as to avoid confusion.


Are doing the thread over again? Great. First sentence of the OP contains these words: "the just, vital, and growing movement in support of the Palestinian national liberation struggle". The last sentence of the OP contains these words: "the need to struggle for the liberation of Palestine is more vital than ever".

AD has posted VOLUMINOUS amounts of material regarding the ongoing Palestinian situation here. If you don't believe me, do a search for yourself. I'd say that he is probably the third-most prolific poster on the board on the subject behind Alice and seemslikeadream.

No doubt some absolutely terrible things have been done to the jews in past, and racism against them continues today, but as of right now, this very moment in history, what is the greater evil at work? Anti-semitism, or the genocide being committed by Israel against Palestine?


Are we required in some way to ignore one ongoing evil because of the existence of another? Do we ignore, for example, oppression here in the United States because the oppression the US military carries out overseas is so much more brutal? Should we ignore Congolese cannibalism because the colonial aspects of the wars there are far more destructive?

The OP of the Atzmon thread was about the antisemitism of remarks made by Atzmon. If you need to preface a thread about antisemitism with a disclaimer which states that, yes, antisemitism is bad, but what the Israelis are doing right now is worse, I would contend that this mindset is in itself antisemitic, in that it seeks to blame all Jews for the crimes of the Israeli state and somehow dilute the import of antisemitism vis-a-vis other forms of hatred and violence in the world.

If you had concerns or confusion about this issue, you might have brought it up during the THREE WEEK LONG THREAD. At this time, the main players in the thread are gone from the board. However if you think it is deserving of further examination, feel free to start a thread and see what happens there.
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby Searcher08 » Sat May 19, 2012 1:54 pm

Since the Atzmon thread, two of the most significant RI (Alice and c2w) posters have left and
the board nearly split apart. There is still a lot of very bad feeling about it. Personally, I felt the first step towards healing was JR's assessment from where he stood. I wrote a long constructive response of the thread from where others stood, but think the best thing to do is literally walk away from it. People who have been online friends or colleagues for years are now not.

My suggestion is to do... nothing.
Consciously create space.
Have a Middle East /Anti-Semitism/Atmon/ADL/JINSA/Icke free month.

The most useful thing I have done here over the last few days is to read old posts.
The finely-grained fractal recycling of entire conversations, with some / all of the participants replaced like parts of Grandfather's Axe is the most interesting thing I have seen here for a long time - right down to people continually saying I think the board has gone downhill recently :mrgreen:
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Re: Reminder: no personal attacks

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat May 19, 2012 2:06 pm

Perhaps it's time for a "Fine Whines and Jeezes" thread to be begun in the Lounge?

A place off the main discussion board that everyone who cares to can gripe about another and receive their due "Jeezes!" in way of a reply?
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