I'm outta here - and a few observations

by **Qutb** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:04 pm

I'd like to use my last post here to share a few observations regarding this board. I realize this is probably not a majority view, but in my opinion the RI board, which used to be different and even unique, has degenerated into a run-of-the-mill crackpot conspiracy forum. This is unfortunate, but it was probably inevitable, as word about it spread and people realized this was a board with little or no moderation. Which is one of the things I like about RI, but after having witnessed the decline of the level of discussion here, I can understand better why sites such as DU and Kos try to enforce a certain minimum standard on the content that is allowed, or consign certain topics to specific forums. It wouldn't work on a board like RI of course - the whole point of RI is to have a forum for free discussion of far-out topics. It's probably impossible to avoid what has happened to RI, on a board which deals with these subjects. So what am I talking about, then? I'll give a few examples, by no means an exhaustive list. Hysteria - the majority here seems to assume that the avian flu is a bioweapon designed to cull most of the world's population. There's not much reason to believe that, but I don't have a problem with people believing it. It's when people advise other posters not to take the vaccine, because the government might put poison in it, that I think the hysteria is going too far. You don't know who the other posters here are, who will read that advice. You don't know if they are young and fit or old and sick. You don't know how sane they are (and frankly, I've seen several posters here lately who have shown signs of suffering from untreated paranoid schizophrenia). This hysteria isn't limited to the avian flu, but runs through every subject discussed here. It's not conducive to rational discussion of anything. And these "fringe" topics really need to be treated in a rational, informed, open-minded but skeptical manner, more than anything. Some posters here make heroic attempts of that, but they're a minority. Groupthink - It's becoming clear to me that there are now not one but two "official stories" of the 9/11 attacks. One is the "mainstream" story, which is the one you'll find in the Kean Commission report. The other one is the "9/11 Truth Movement" story, which says that the WTC buildings were demolished with explosives, everything was planned by the Bush administration, the planes were remote controlled and probably switched at some point and replaced with drones, and that Islamist terrorism doesn't exist. And none of them give an entirely truthful account of what happened, but I'm increasingly suspecting that the latter story is even less true than the former. But when I tried to suggest that, in a recent thread, it was met with several accusations from the local chapter of "9/11 Truth" that I was a government agent out to fuck with their minds, a "shill" etc. Either explicitly stated or implied ("it's very telling..."). That whole thread confirmed the impression I've had for some time that the "Truth Movement" has become very similar to a certain type of UFO subculture, in which all the members believe in certain core dogma: in the case of UFOs, typically underground alien bases, a treaty between the Earthly governments and the aliens, etc. If you suggest to these people that perhaps these underground alien bases don't exist, you'll get pretty much the same response. And of course there's proof, lots of it... The analogy isn't perfect - the case for controlled demolition etc. is slightly stronger than the case for a human-alien treaty - but the similarities are undeniable. And it's not only 9/11. After the London bombings, the general assumption was that the "official story" could be ruled out completely, a priori. The four young men could not have been suicide bombers. It had to be Blair, and you had to be a government agent to doubt it. Personally, I think skepticism should cut both ways. I'm also reminded of the "Moon landing was a hoax" theories in a lot of these arguments. You know, How can the flag flutter when there's no wind on the moon? IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!! I'm sure it's a nice hobby to have. I have a lot more I could have said on this subject, but I'll leave it at that. General idiocy - I'm referring to things like, say... OMG!!! The American-French Alliance killed 5 Zionists on the New York subway!!! ...and that kind of stuff. Anti-Semitism - I posted Levanda's blog post on Simon Wiesenthal, and another poster replied with a link to an article from the Holocaust-denying Journal of Historical Review. That wouldn't bother me much if it was just one poster, but unfortunately it's fairly typical of the general outlook here. The majority of posters here obviously thinks "Zionism" - whatever they understand by that - is one of the biggest problems in the world today. The delusion that Israel controls the United States through a Zionist fifth-column, the assumption that the Mossad played a big role in 9/11, "Zionist" used as synonymous with "neocon", etc. In short, it pervades much of the discussion here. Again, there are some notable exceptions, but they are constantly accused of being "gatekeepers" "shills for Israel" and so on. It's a shame, because this board could have been really good, and for a while it was. But unfortunately it isn't, any more. And I don't see the point in coming here only to be annoyed by all this, so I won't. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **FourthBase** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:07 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>the assumption that the Mossad played a big role in 9/11<hr></blockquote> Positive or negative, they played a role, and there's absolutely no doubt about it. Good luck with your future endeavors.

by **Homeless Halo** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:08 pm

Good points. Maybe you will change your mind eventually. Every time a reasonable person runs away, it shifts the dynamic in favor of cranks. It is always a shame to see. Of course, I'm one of the cranks, so who am I to talk?

by **Col Quisp** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:17 pm

Qutb, I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope you'll reconsider. We'll miss you! Remember, I'm the one who found the definition of "qutb." Don't quit! Take a break for awhile and come back. Your contributions are important.

by **slimmouse** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:22 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Of course, I'm one of the cranks, so who am I to talk?<hr></blockquote> Me too. Growing increasingly so by the day. Either an expansion of my minds parameters over the abyss into insanity, or deeper truths. Trouble is, it all makes perfect sense to me <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Just like 'al kayeeda did 9/11', and 'Iraq had WMDs' did not so long ago. Which is to say that I kinda like where Im going, given where Ive been. After all, What could be worse than where Ive been ( see above )? Good luck QUTB.

by **antiaristo** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:36 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>And it's not only 9/11. After the London bombings, the general assumption was that the "official story" could be ruled out completely, a priori. The four young men could not have been suicide bombers. It had to be Blair, and you had to be a government agent to doubt it. Personally, I think skepticism should cut both ways.<hr></blockquote> Qutb, I'm really surprised by your standards of evidence. Have you followed the de Menezes thread? If you have been then you will know that the "official story" has been blown to smithereens AND that the lie can be traced back to 7/7. Have you not noticed that after three MONTHS we have not been given ANY details to support the "official story"? They haven't even released the names of the victims. But YOU want to give THEM the benefit of the doubt?? I've learned a lot from reading your posts, but I must take issue with this characterisation. Maybe you've had a bad day or whatever - we are all so prone, we all have cycles, we all feel overwhelmed at times by what we confront. Do whatever you think is right.

by **dbeach** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:06 pm

wish U would reconsider BUT U are stilll invited to my favorite surf spot and yes I do hang with Elvis. BUT U R IMPORTANT .Please... Take a break then comeback. life is stilla beach bro. the bad guys gonna lose 4 SURE Now that they have us surrounded

by **morganwolf** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:19 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It's when people advise other posters not to take the vaccine, because the government might put poison in it, that I think the hysteria is going too far. You don't know who the other posters here are, who will read that advice.<hr></blockquote> I guess this could be about me. Whether it is, or is not, I will clarify: I never said the government would put poison in any vaccine. I did say that vaccines have a certain risk factor inherent to taking them. That is a fact. In the same post, I offered a few links to sites where the discussion involved microchips being slipped into the vaccines, but this was, to me, an obvious 'tin hat' speculation, ungrounded in reality based thinking (not unlike many topics posted here and on Jeff's blog). I see the growing hysteria about the bird flu, and have tried to inform as best I can, and to soothe fears. That said, I retain the right to offer my personal opinion about vaccines. People can do with my opinion (advice)what they will. If discussion forums like this one have such an influence that people might die because of something I wrote, then 1) something is very wrong 2) why should any of us bother to say/write anything?

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:21 pm

Hope after a short breather you find your way here again. I do understand where you're coming from. Readers of the blog should know I've voiced similar concerns about lazy groupthink re "9/11 Truth." But this is a virtually unmoderated board, and beyond the bare bones posting regs I've never wanted to impose my will here, and I haven't even had time lately to share my thoughts. So I've looked forward to reading yours. Don't be a stranger, the times are strange enough.

by **banned** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:58 pm

....stay and keep putting your beliefs out there. It's a win win situation, because you will hearten your allies, and aggravate your enemies <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> .

by **albion** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:12 pm

I definitely hear where you're coming from Qutb, but I do hope you'll be back. I was especially looking forward to your posting more on "the links between Al-Banna, and other early Islamists/Salafists, and European, especially British, Masonry and occultism" that you mentioned in the Ramsey Clark thread. (btw I was joking about the hollow earthers - sorry, bad conspiracy humor) Take care. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=albion@rigorousintuition>albion</A> at: 10/11/05 8:50 pm

by **Dreams End** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:27 pm

Nooooooooooooooo! Crap! Of course, I almost posted one of these myself a week or so ago. In my case, it was the overwhelming use of very questionable sources, many of which come from clearly, demonstrably and, in fact, well known anti-Semitic sites that had me composing this letter in my head. My postings have slowed...but I've been busy anyway. Still, when so many folks can take seriously so many sources whose track record is about .03% confirmation and then respond to suggestions that these sources are unreliable with "You can't PROVE he's wrong" we have a problem of basic logic. I don't know what happened. I wonder if I'm part of the problem. When I see people quoting David Icke or others, it takes me about 3 mouseclicks to find information from Icke's own mouth showing what his viewpoint really is. And Makow. And Larouche. And....geez...even the British National Party. I went after these posts, but I did it in what I thought were substantive ways. My error was assuming posters WANTED to know about who these folks really were. However, when I post the actual words of these sources, other posters react as if I'd simply called them a name or something. They don't want to know. Most of conspiracy theory has long, fascist/rightwing roots. It just does. And if you don't learn about those roots, its simply too easy to fall into some serious misjudgments. I believe that conspiracy is an important part of history. A hidden part. History by other means, if you will. But that doesn't mean you accept anyone who says they have "inside sources", especially when that person is nearly always wrong. It doesn't mean that anyone who uses the term "illuminati" somehow has insight into the truth. Do you know HOW MANY sites simply use this equation Illuminati = Luciferians = Jews? They took the old blood libel, dusted it off and updated it. Some people here need to learn how to evaluate sources. Here's a story on a site. What's his source of information? What's his agenda? What's his track record? Who does he hang with? All important questions. I think Jeff does a good job of staying away from questionable material, primarily by quoting the very people he's seeking to expose. An approach I recommend. anyway, I tried to be substantive in my posts when these questionable sources were utilized, but maybe I should have just ignored these folks. I think I simply fanned the flames. I actually got into a DEBATE about the protocols of the Elders of Zion. What a waste. Maybe some of the people calling you an agent, Qutb, are really agents themselves. I'm not accusing anyone in particular but if this site really IS onto some real truths, it would make sense that this would happen. And it would make sense that you, whose posts are always very well sourced and conveniently linked, would be attacked by people whose idea of argument is calling someone a "shill." Agents or not, it's a shame that they ran you off. I would absolutely love it if you would PM me if you hang out at other bulletin boards on similar topics. Your posts are always educational for me, sometimes rising to the level of epiphany. And I'm not just saying that so I can use the word "epiphany" either. Sometime in the near future, I hope (!) I'll get back to my own blog. Love to have you stop by, but I simply don't have the time and resources to do the kind of job Jeff does. <a href="http://dreamsend.blogspot.com">dreamsend.blogspot.com</a> Most recent post right now is about a month old, but there's a guy who always cusses me out publicly if I don't post enough and he's back. Gives me kind of a kick in the pants. Please keep in touch.

by **cortez** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:27 pm

From having seen a few discussion boards fall apart, it normally begins with the core group leaving. I am new here (kinda) and appreciate your posts, and logic, so they will be missed. Even if we differ on 9-11 CD issue. By the way those that accused you of being 'disinfo' etc without any grounds (other than being on the opposite side of the debate) should apologize for the slights on your character.

by **smiths** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:29 pm

qutb, nice try but very sorry, youre staying, i enjoy your counter points and know without doubt that there need to be people pulling against the group think, dont feel offended by a few twats that can only manage to have a go at you instead of challenging your ideas which are much harder to refute since they are mostly just urgings of skeptical vigilance i worked at the australian wilderness soceity for a while which i support and admire but was always in arguements refuting ridiculous utopian ideals which most of the group held and reinforced, to suggest pragmatic middle paths was to be in league with the oil companies and satan, but i had to do it, and i think they needed it in short, we all need you and yours, wether we realise it or not ps, it was a controlled demolition and israel (not jews) does have a disproportionate effect on world affairs

by **NoNostalgia** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:36 pm

Man, I know what you are saying. I don't post here much. In fact, I think I've posted twice, BUT while there is a tendency to jump right off the deepend here, I do tend to read the posts for some informative information. I've often read and liked your posts. I don't buy into the extreme anti-semitism here, or the really far out stuff (legions of disinfo agents - Dylan? gimme a break!), but I see no reason not to believe 7/7 was a government op, what I think about 9/11 doesn't matter, the waters have muddied to the unknowable, but it's clear that warnings were ignored, controlled demolition is likely, etc. I don't know if I buy remote control planes, but it hardly matters. What does matter is that people come around to understand the realities of the ruling elite. Stick around, where else you gonna go?

I'm outta here - and a few observations

I'm outta here - and a few observations

Re: I'm outta here - and a few observations

yes

Re: I'm outta here - and a few observations

Re: yes

Re: I'm outta here - and a few observations

Re: I'm outta here - and a few observations

RE: I'm outta here - and a few observations

Re: I'm outta here - and a few observations

Aw, come on Qutb...

Re: Aw, come on Qutb...

Re: I'm outta here - and a few observations

Re: Aw, come on Qutb...

bullshit

the usual

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