I'm outta here - and a few observations

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here here

Postby Homeless Halo » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:27 am

I'M a disinfo agent, you know. I've been a company man since I was 11. (course, I was a "company boy" back then)<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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You can't chase someone off...

Postby banned » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:55 am

...unless they want to be chased. Sorry, DE, I have to part company with you.<br><br>Nobody ran anybody off. Qutb either ran out of arguments, or ran out of energy to make them (temporarily or permanently remains to be seen).<br><br>Anyone has the right to decide that spending time posting on a blog is no longer rewarding for them. On the other hand, if someone can't hang tough and argue their viewpoint on a board that is by and large sympathetic to them, I wouldn't want to see them have to go nose to nose with a ruthless opponent in a real life situation where if you stop fighting the other side wins and you lose at a minimum face and at a maximum your life.<br><br>All Qutb has done by having a hissy fit and stalking off is create bad feeling, setting supporters against those they perceive to have 'done Qutb wrong.'<br><br>I repeat, this is what disinfo agents love, people taking sides. Divide and conquer. Create or magnify interpersonal bad feeling.<br><br>Who wins in a situation like this? Seriously.<br><br>I'm sorry now I urged Qutb to stay. I'm leave it at "don't let the screen door hit you where the good Lord split you" if you don't want to play anymore. Oh, and take your ball with you. We can always get another one, not to mention other players who aren't prima donnas.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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PS by the way...

Postby banned » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:19 am

...I've wondered ever since I came on the board why Qutb chose that name to post under:<br><br>"After his return from a two-year study tour in the United States that ended in 1950, Qutb joined al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun (the Muslim Brotherhood), becoming one of their leading spokesmen. After the movement openly opposed the government of Jamal Abdul Nasser, Qutb essentially spent the rest of his life in prison after 1954, except for a brief period in 1964-65. After being temporarily released, Qutb was re-apprehended, tried and executed for treason in 1966.<br><br>Qutb's lack of knowledge in Islam coupled by his jailing led him to change his understanding of Islam according to the circumstances he was faced with. Consequently, his writings became more and more radical as time went by. Eventually, his revolutionary ideology of takfir (excommunication) and setting out against the authorities became ingrained in the minds and hearts of a new generation of youth who were looking for something greater than the failed way of al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun. To this day, Qutb is considered to be the head of this ideology for all insurrectionary groups. " <p></p><i></i>
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hrrm

Postby Homeless Halo » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:52 am

I don't know any of you well enough to care what you do. No offense.<br><br>As you will. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: hrrm

Postby Dreams End » Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:23 am

I don't know why he chose the name Qutb. <br><br> Since one of his main attackers was "Michael Meiring" I guess you need to look into him too. <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>the Michael Meiring mystery: an agent provocateur in the philippines?<br>by brian Thursday August 07, 2003 at 03:54 PM<br><br> by Carolyn Aguillas this story shows us the role of the CIA as agent provocateur in asia. This event should call to mind the Lavon affair of 1954<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/51985.php">www.melbourne.indymedia.o.../51985.php</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Notice that Meiring is one of the ones piling onto Qutb on that thread. So use your sharp analytical skills there, banned. (Jeff has more on Meiring, if you even care.) What does it say to you, banned, that one of the guys fanning the flames here named himself after a CIA agent provocateur? Where's your post about that? Must have missed it.<br> <br><br>It is REALLY important to some of you that people accept CD. There's just no way someone could have different ideas about it and not be an agent. <br><br>And by the way, there is NOTHING more divisive that I can think of on a board like this than charges of "disinfo agent". So if the divisive effects are your criteria for determining disinfo agents, I guess you can start with yourself. <br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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*

Postby Sweejak » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:18 am

Well gee, I guess I have to take responisibility for posting something Qutb complains about when I posted a link to Mark Weber's article about Wiesenthal. <br><br> Never addressing the article itself I got the typical reaction that IHR is a "Holocaust denier" site, though I have never seen it there, and a brief synopsis of Weber's educational history as if that is somehow relevant. <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Great, let's quote the fucking Journal for Historical Review. About the author:<br>"Mark Weber is director of the Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For nine years he served as editor of the IHR's Journal of Historical Review."<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The Weber article is well sourced but it does punch some holes in Wiesenthal's story. Hence it must be anti-semetic. Talk about group think. Anyway, while I'm concerned about sources and the trajectory of certain groups the fact that real liars will use the truth as eagerly as a lie means that such sources ought to be allowed and examined.<br><br> “Let truth and falsehood grapple; who ever knew truth put to the worse in a free and open encounter?” Even those in error might have something to say, some marginal clarification to offer. Why stop our ears against them?" -- Milton <p></p><i></i>
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back to business-as-usual

Postby proldic » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:30 am

OK, so all these fucking assholes can continue to push their shit, but god forbid this great discourse be sullied by anybody calling anybody out specifically for blatant disingenuous role-playing. You can't take it? Well I can't take this shit day in and day out!! <br> <p></p><i></i>
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i missed the blowout

Postby nashvillebrook » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:06 pm

and not that this is the magic pill or anything, but i want to address JUST how people are treating each other. i don't yet have an opinion about the content of posts. i'm a little behind in all my online blogging.<br><br>but one simple area of imporvement i see is MANNERS. <br><br>to the newbies -- folks here have known each other for a while. think of this as a neighborhood pub and the regulars are the folks sitting at the big round table. here come a bunch of newcomers. they pull up chairs, pour beers, and proceed to get wasted, belching and feeling up the waitstaff.<br><br>don't be a buzzkill.<br><br>be aware of the human behind the screen name. you don't have to walk up to a table and start shit to get attention. this is a small board. <br><br>treat people online with the same respect you'd show in real life. this isn't a wrestling match or an online role playing game. these are people who gather to share information. show some respect and you'll get it in return. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: back to business-as-usual

Postby Dreams End » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:20 pm

Sweejak...unbelievable. Two mouse clicks and you'd have all you need to know about whether IHR is a "holocaust denier". Here's a wikipedia article...just the first thing I grabbed. Now, I assume that by saying Qutb didn't "prove" IHR is a holocaust denying site, you really meant you don't want to know. Qutb didn't bother because they are rather infamous. <br><br>Here's a clip and a link. If you want to debate the point...let's move it out of this forum...but I doubt you actually want to see this information anyway.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The IHR was originally founded by Dave McCalden (also known as Lewis Brandon), a former member of the neo-Nazi National Front, and Willis Carto, the head of the now-defunct Liberty Lobby, who eventually lost control of the IHR in an internal power struggle. Liberty Lobby was an anti-Semitic, neo-Nazi organization best known for publishing The SPOTLIGHT, now reorganized as the American Free Press. The current head of the IHR is Mark Weber.<br><br>Beginning in 1979, IHR publicly offered a reward of $50,000 for verifiable "proof that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human beings existed at or in Auschwitz." This money (and an additional $40,000) was eventually paid in 1985 to Auschwitz survivor Mel Mermelstein, who sued the IHR for breach of contract for initially ignoring his evidence (a signed testimony of his experiences in Auschwitz). As a result of Mermelstein's case, a U.S. Superior Court in California declared the Holocaust an indisputable legal fact.<br>[edit]<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ins...cal_Review</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>I make no claims that wikipedia is error free. I always use it as a starting place for further research and take no claims there without verification. But if you actually CARE, then you can start with this information. You wanna debate about it..as I said, start a new thread so we don't hijack this one.<br><br>As for Qutb...I am as guilty on this thread as anyone of mischaracterizing his reasons for leaving. I think the way he was jumped on was part of it but if you notice, he's more concerned with spending time on a site where arguments are "irrational." Let's be careful with that word, as the truth itself is likely "irrational"...so here's what I mean.<br><br>I don't think he cares if people oppose his views on CD, but close-minded tautologies amounting to "This is the way I see it and if you don't you are an agent" is not debate. <br><br>I don't think he's closeminded too much, but the standards of evidence around here are pretty thin sometimes. I'm posting a separate thread to start some discussion about "evidence" when researching these topics. It's not meant to, nor do I think it will, start a flame war, but you never know around here.<br><br>Glad Jeff settled the "agent" thing. By the way, for those of you who didn't get it...my accusatons of firstimer and Meiring as agents was to illustrate the use of spurious logic to "prove" someone is an agent and also how divisive such accusations can be. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: back to business-as-usual

Postby Sweejak » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:33 pm

You too have neglected the article. Yeah, business as usual. <p></p><i></i>
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dreamsend rocks

Postby nashvillebrook » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:53 pm

i'm confused about the whole thing, but i love what you say: it depends on your definition of "rational." etc. <br><br>RI is like the cool kids in the back of the class who crack wise and can back up their position with more than their hipster sneers. i would have never logged on, but the level of discussion is head and shoulders above any other site i've run across. you won't get anywhere here with surface matters -- the dialectic sneer is an empty black leather jacket. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Thanks

Postby Qutb » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:06 pm

Crap, I'm a little embarrassed now reading my post. I can see that it comes across as "emotional sniping" or a "Farewell Cruel World" letter, as has been pointed out. I should have worded it differently and avoided the referrence to my experience in the CD thread and the "this will be my last post" dramatics. That was written in a fit of frustration. What needed to be discussed was what this board is and should and shouldn't be, not who's on who's side and who's done whom wrong.<br><br>banned said - <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The point is, if someone is miffed, go or stay, but don't tie the board up talking about YOU<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>I agree, which is why I'd like Jeff to lock this thread, if it's possible. There are more important things to discuss than my hurting pussy.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Qutb either ran out of arguments, or ran out of energy to make them<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>Mostly out of energy, but more importantly I came to realize that I don't share many of the implicit assumptions or the general weltanschauung here, so it's probably not the right place for me to hang out. <br><br>I sincerly appreciate all the posts urging me to stay, though I'm a little embarrassed by it too. I'll probably contribute a post now and then. <br><br>BTW, I want to emphasize that I didn't mean "showing signs of suffering from untreated paranoid schizophrenia" to be an insult. I have friends who suffer from this illness. I know the symptoms, I've seen it up close. As a general rule, believing in massive conspiracies isn't a symptom of paranoia, but believing oneself to be at the center and the target of one is. When posters relate that they know "they" are after them, because they've seen black cars around the neighborhood etc, that sounds very familiar to me. A friend of mine once confided to me that "they" had a device with which they could hear our conversation in their van, parked adjacent to my house. He also told me they had positioned snipers around the house. "You're probably not gonna believe this, but I swear it's true!"<br><br>----------<br><br>Sweejak said - <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Never addressing the article itself I got the typical reaction that IHR is a "Holocaust denier" site<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Gee, I wonder why people keep saying that. <p><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:black;font-family:century gothic;font-size:x-small;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br><br></p><i></i>
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proldic

Postby robertdreed » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:23 pm

"god forbid this great discourse be sullied by anybody calling anybody out specifically for blatant disingenuous role-playing."<br><br>proldic, subjective certitude is not to be confused with objective analysis. <br><br>personally speaking, I don't have any problem with the by now self-evident fact that your top priority as an RI contributor has been attempting to convert the board into a kangaroo court for the purpose of running ideological litmus tests and show trials. I find your schtick entertaining, as well as educational. Along with pushing the envelope of Marxist-Leninist self-parody to an occasionally hilarious extreme, your overbearing busybody megalomania serves as an instructive warning of the perils of allowing politically obsessed idealists such as yourself to ever gain positions of official authority and decision-making power. That's an invaluable lesson, even if it's one that you're providing unintentionally. <br><br>However, it sounds as if Jeff is beginning to weary of having RI discussions recurrently mutate into inquisitions seeking to target the board's own posters...despite the fact that they often resemble interrogations by a prosecutorial tag team of Inspector Clouseau and Captain Queeg- or your own boffo specialty, that peerless caricature of Lavrenty Beria you do, with occasional shadings of Meir Kahane thrown in for flavor. <br><br>Well, it appears that not everyone shares my voracious appetite for high farce. And at any rate, I can see how variations on the same plot line can get tiresome. How much Punch and Judy can one sit still for?<br><br>So I'm amenable with Jeff's decision to call a halt to the use of RI discussions to try to start pecking parties. As the saying goes, it IS his board. Loathsome as you may find the entire concept, proldic, Jeff is the sole proprietor here. <br><br>Incidentally, proldic, I was just over at the PRA website yesterday. Wouldn't you know, Chip Berlet has his own blog!<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://chipberlet.blogspot.com/2005/09/defcon-campaign-to-defend-constitution.html">chipberlet.blogspot.com/2...ution.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>So why don't you consider navigating over there, and taking the fight to one of your avowed arch-foes? <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 10/13/05 2:17 pm<br></i>
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Re: Thanks

Postby Sweejak » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:29 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Gee, I wonder why people keep saying that<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Gee, I wonder why no one debunks Weber's article. LOL.<br><br>That's what I brought it up for, discussion, not flaming.<br><br>Don't you find the concept of a judge deciding what history is a little troubling? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Thanks

Postby Dreams End » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:29 pm

Sweejak said:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> You too have neglected the article<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I don't even know what your argument with Qutb was about. I was responding to what you said, that there was no evidence presented that it was a holocaust deniers site. It's well known as exactly that...I don't even think they hide this. Personally, I don't frequent such sites as I'm old fashioned and still believe that Nazis are bad guys. However, if you want, we can have another thread about IHR, Weber and all that weird crop of people who want to a: deny the holocaust and b: support theories that would justify another one.<br><br>And Qutb...I was as guilty as anyone on focusing on that element of your letter. I did realize that I was misrepresenting it and tried to fess up, but it actually doesn't come off as that whiny...we just emphasized one portion of it. Also, I didn't know how to spell: "weltanschauung" <p></p><i></i>
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