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haaretz today on the Columbia U incident -

Postby ir » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:36 am

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/657497.html">www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/657497.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br> <br>An anti-Semitic atmosphere <br> <br>By Avi Beker <br> <br>On September 17, 2002, Harvard President Larry Summers delivered his traditional remarks in honor of the beginning of the academic year. However, in an admittedly unprecedented fashion, Summers decided to come out against the burgeoning anti-Semitism among academic communities.<br><br>Summers described himself as "Jewish, identified but hardly devout," and said that anti-Semitism had always been remote from his experience, adding that he had long been wary of those who raise the specter of anti-Semitism in response to any disagreement over Israel.<br><br>He explained, however, that he felt forced to speak out publicly against anti-Semitism for the first time due to the upturn in anti-Semitism on campuses, and the attempts to delegitimize the Jewish state by comparing it to Nazi Germany and the calls for academic and economic boycotts against it.<br><br><br> <br> <br> Advertisement <br> <br>Whereas in Europe the anti-Semitism that has risen drastically in the past five years has been expressed in violent incidents, attacks on synagogues and Jewish institutions as well attacks in the media, but far less so in the universities, in the United States and Canada, an anomalous situation has come into being: Anti-Semitism in American streets and cities or in the press is virtually nonexistent, while the campuses there have turned into throbbing centers of anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic activity. <br><br>Many feel that the calm during demonstrations and in recently emerging public expressions of anti-Semitism on the American campuses is a cover for its malignant spread on the intellectual level.<br><br>The subject was first raised in a debate recently held by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, an independent body that looks into complaints of civil discrimination and makes recommendations to the president and Congress. Representatives of Jewish organizations that participated in the debate warned against the proliferation of anti-Semitism on campuses.<br><br>A new book was discussed, "The UnCivil University: Politics and Propaganda in American Education," which is based on a study and interviews conducted in universities. The book presents a sad and disturbing picture of anti-Semitism disguised as an academic debate about the Middle East. Dr. Gary Tobin, one of the book's authors and president of the Institute for Jewish & Community Research, San Francisco, explained that the main problem today does not lie in open or blatant anti-Semitism, but rather in atmospheres and teaching styles.<br><br>"The academic debate on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is framed in the politics of racial discrimination, and this is why it has so much currency on campuses," says Tobin. "Jews are the white, colonialist oppressors and the Palestinians are the brown victims of colonization. So to be a white Jew in support of Israel you risk being branded as a racist. And that accusation is more insidious on a day-to-day basis than any mass rally."<br><br>The study presents reports of insults and humiliations suffered by Jewish students due to their support for Israel, and describes how Jewish faculty members that support Israel are being forced out. In a corresponding debate held in the U.S. Senate last week, there was discussion of the anti-Israeli atmosphere that prevails in centers for Middle Eastern studies in American universities, some of which are funded by Arab money.<br><br>The hostile style forged by the late Professor Edward Said persists at Columbia University, and includes personal attacks involving Nazi images on individual students in the classroom who are accused of killing Arab children. In addition, maps of the Middle East from which Israel's name has been expunged are used in these study centers as a matter of course.<br><br>In discussions held by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights and the Senate, particularly outstanding were the participants who spoke about the importance of maintaining the proper balance between freedom of academic speech and the need for protection against anti-Semitic incitement. <br><br>The Jewish community in the United States and Canada has been trying in recent years to attain a balance in the Middle Eastern studies departments by founding chairs for Israel studies, but is also demanding that institutions that are supported by federal funding strictly maintain conceptual pluralism in the academic debate, as required by law.<br><br>Thus, Jewish organizations are suddenly finding themselves facing difficult dilemmas involving academic freedom, on the one hand, and the need to fight anti-Semitism and the continuing trend of delegitimization of the State of Israel in an academic context, on the other<br> ---------------------------------------------------- <p></p><i></i>
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ADL

Postby ir » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:52 am

ADL is playing a dangerous game as have other extremist organizations. recently, though, and in light of the fiasco in the white house/neo cons, Mr. Foxman has been changing his tones. He has been publishing op eds in Haaretz occasionally, shifting from the old "witch hunt" position to being now 'concernd by the Christianization" of the USA and the evangelical right wingers. Responses he is getting here in israel are not supportive, as ADL people have also been "on the tail" of Israeli liberals including mainstream Zionist liberals who didn't share their zeal.<br>There is at least one case I know of that an american left wing Jew sued them for harassment or something and won. <br>If you read haaretz article from today, you will see the "official israeli stance", not necessarily shared by all journalists even in Haaretz. this is more or less the stance of the ministry of foreign affairs. <br>Again, I want to clarify. Israel views itself as having a war (not all out war, but certainly a war) with the palestinian. Some of this war is "propaganda", and so this is not expected to be a clean, sterile academic debate. However, I fully resent and oppose the intervention of american Jewry in this issue, by pulling strings and all this Hillel activities etc. Mind you, the same Jewish neo con organizations are invervening in Israeli academia, pulling money strings to let go of what they view as "too radical" staff. (Ilan Pape, Neve Gordon etc.). There are ongoing battles here, and it is becoming a farce that American right wing Jews are imposing their agenda on Israel, in the NAME OF ZIONISM...I find it amazing even more than the usual american imperialism.<br><br>As a result, israeli liberal professor have been applying for help from Europe and even from Palestinian authority, to place a counter pressure on the boards and governors of the universities. I think this cannot get more absurd.<br><br>If you are really interested in that, check out Neve Gordon in the internet (Ben Gurion University), and see how he has been subject to same character assassination, email harassment, death threats, implying he is Nazi and Capo...what not. gordon took the case to court. He is of course jewish Israeli, I eblieve he also served in the army etc. etc. this does not prevent these types and their rich patrons in the USA to say he is a NAZI.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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4thbase

Postby ir » Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:02 am

Nothing wrong with you suggesting canada as alternative. herzl actually suggested Uganda and wasn't thrilled with palestine idea. Israelis are the ones who have the right to say where they want to be. Last census showed more than 1/3 would opt out if they could. And many Ashkenazi Jews are re applying for Polish/german citizenships, now that it is possible. Canada would certainly be a preferred place for many.<br>However, you have to balance your approach and admit that Canada hardly admits israelis as immigrants much less so palestinians. Since I have personal experience with canada immigration, I know that for a fact. In fact, the biggest critics of Israel do now want to see the Israelis anywhere else BUT in the Middle east or as far as possible, certainly none of these governments (Canada, Germany and to some lesser extent Britain) is making if even the smallest effort to restrain the israeli government vis a vis the arabs or its own citizens. I am excluding Britain, because at least in the last 5 years, Brittish government and NGO's are actively involved in protecting Israeli dissidents from our government, and placing a fairly significant pressure on Israeli authorities with regards to human rights standard. (however, we all know that Brittain apparently also sold parts to build israel's nuclear arms, so...there you have it..). canada, however, failed to do so constantly, and so does the rest of the world. the USA does not criticize israel, which is at least honest. It admist israelis as immigants as well. <br>What I am trying to say, it is fair enough to make all critique wit regards to israel, but you have to place equal criticism on the super power for very much empowering the toxic situation, and not really acting out of concern to either isaelis or palestinians. something in the motivation is suspect as well.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ADL

Postby scollon » Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:03 am

"is becoming a farce that American right wing Jews are imposing their agenda on Israel, in the NAME OF ZIONISM..."<br><br>My argument was that enormously influential American Jews are using Israelis for their own nefarious globalist purposes (PNAC etc). Their attachment to Israel is skin deep and to it's people, probably very little.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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agree

Postby ir » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:52 am

yes, that's the case scollon, but the nobody is really going out of their way to show concern with the israeli people (not the government, which is collaborating with the disaster). Especially with those who suffer directly at the hands of those neo-cons. I have to repeat this, like a parrot in a way, for want of a better way to make it clear.<br>Canada's government for instance, one of the few that do know who are the named victims among the Israelis/Jews, stay clear of the entire issue, prefering to keep good relations with the bad powerful people. And then, to appease public outrage, the utter some faint general and idiotic condemnation of Israel's policies in the west bank (while in the back door assisting this occupation). I am sure the smart and savvy people of canada cen detect that, but also prefer to join the "as if" story. Why get in the heat, and who really cares ! its easier to follow the line of lumping everything together (not that its much different with respect to other international issues, like iraq or africa or china...saying one thing and doing the opposite..its the same all over).<br>--<br>thing is that this tactic will not help Canada, for instance, avoid the consequences in the long term. once you duck on core ethical issue, the road is paved for larger corruption to seep in. we see it now with the little pathetic "skirmish" between the US and canada over "anti american rhetoric" in the coming elelctions.".<br>anyway, i hope something comes up which is going to prevent escalation here. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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IR

Postby FourthBase » Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:30 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What I am trying to say, it is fair enough to make all critique wit regards to israel, but you have to place equal criticism on the super power for very much empowering the toxic situation, and not really acting out of concern to either isaelis or palestinians. something in the motivation is suspect as well.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>But that's the thing, I never placed any criticism anywhere.<br><br>I just suggested that perhaps Israel would have been better off located in one of the alternative spots suggested by early Zionists. I was not even suggesting that it be considered now, only in the days before Palestine was finally decided upon. Israel now has as much right to exist where it is as any other country. <p></p><i></i>
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israel

Postby ir » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:16 pm

things of the past are quite irrelevant now, among them the debate within Zionism where to locate israel. It is a known fact that Uganda was the first suggestion. I also mentioned that many Israelis, are not gonig to be offended by suggestions to 'relocate' israel, especialy to nice places, or nicer. I don't see this suggestion or discussion as "antisemitic", but I also think that the reason Israel has become a problem in the MidEast is directly related to super powers interests around there. So, it is quite possible that same scenarios would be happening anywhere else. In fact, let's face it, the last century has seen very little peace and harmony anywhere around the globe. <br>I am somewhat concerned with the huge interest in the conflict of Israel/palestine, which is not actually coupled with real engagement in this conflict. It has become a sort of 'airdung' or lightning catcher, or trash bin for all the dissatisfaction in the world, from governance and from WAR. This is a form of scapegoating, including by those (even on this board) who take a lot of time to sort of ward off attacks on Israel as an abstract entity, with little engagement, I belive, in the realities of the place and the people. it has become a game, a virtual game. Some of this virtual reality, dissociation, sense of "not really happening" is actually manifest in israel. I cannot explain it, but people here have kind of accepted roles of icons in a game. they don't realy live, they don't really die. Wierd and unpleasant to say the least. It does have a resemblence, on the archetypal level, to the "non realness" of the holocaust. I think it has to do with mainly dissociation and self projections, or accepting proejections instead of "being". The other manifestation of depersonalization on grand scale, is rotten relations among the people, loss of community, and futurelessness. <br>I am very mucho frustrated with having to be caught in a half nightmarish "planet". Perhaps in order to feel alive, people here already need to engage in heavy violence, either as victims or victimizers. one has the sense of becoming a symbol, a "jew" not a person. I sense it here a lot. or an "israeli", doens't matter. not really there. <br>---<br> <p></p><i></i>
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IR

Postby FourthBase » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:30 pm

I definitely try to steer clear of that virtual game you speak of. I am hesitant to offer any opinions on the whole matter over there precisely because it has become a game that depersonalizes the people involved. Instead I prefer to listen to people themselves, people like you who live there. If there are any suggestions you have for an American, something I could do to help, please offer. <p></p><i></i>
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this is touching,

Postby ir » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:19 pm

and I cannot ask for more of you, as an anonymous board colleague. namely, the offer to hear me with an open heart. And I know how nearly impossible it is, these days, when it comes to Israel.<br>It is no coincidence that almost every discussion about Israel ends in a fire pit. It is Jeff's genious to coin this title, and it is one of those magical intuitive non coincidences, that Israel ends up in the fire pit, literally as well. We get a good opportunity to see and examine the inner workings of the outer workings. <br>I see the fire pit (where I spent most of my life) as an almost real locale, a "gap", created by lack of presence and mainly lack of heart presence, or "hearing with the heart". it is a place that many couples who had marital problems report on, as a hell created by co-triggering of automatic responses. <br>I find it very much in action on this board as well, when it comes to Israel and Jews in general. of course, the objects of this debate (namely Israel and the Jews) in a way get pushed there, and also collaborate. It is hard to be YOU, in the situation, one is almost forced to become a "cassette". I felt strongly pulled to fake responses, on account of fear, or pressure, generated from both parties/adversaries. tehre is a pressure on the "jew" or the "israeli" to have an identity as such. with me (and I am sure some others as well) I cannot deliver the goods, I don't have a clear sense of what it means to be Israeli and even jewish for me. I was born into both these "definitions", which so far didn't support me. However, i see no need to deny those facts or exchange them with similarly obscure categories (religious or national affiliation). <br>Personally, I need a lot of help, but i cannot think of anything right now, what sort of support, because since my father passed away (which makes the death of my mother more plausible, as they were attached to each other), I am confused and letting this time of mourning pass, before I focus on plans. My initial position is seeking help moving out, but perhaps it will be differnet now, I am not sure to which direction. I am using the mourning time to conduct a small "roots" query, which I never did before, namely, finding out more who my ancestors were, maybe that will yield some "connection" or potential answers. In the meantime I was able to find a lot of material on the communities they left in eastern europe. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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certain

Postby somebody » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:55 pm

I am soooo certain that there are former/current alphabet agents/controllers/wannabes on this board. Jeff must have hit some real nerves with his blog. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Certain Uncertainties For Certain Behind The Curtain

Postby Floyd Smoots » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:56 pm

scollon, you Wonder-Weasel. You posted on the now-locked thread, "Whatever Happened To.......", the following unsubstantiated, bad-brainbreath-garbage-reeking opinion regarding me, personally: "Revealing your identity is in character and unforgiveable for the beast with many names." I responded with the following:<br><br>'scollon, WHAT THE HELL IS "THIS" SUPPOSED TO MEAN?? I mean, I know I'm old (57), and semi-ignorant and semi-educated, but WTF???<br>"Revealing your identity is in character and unforgiveable for the beast with many names." I mean, I know, even though you didn't (unless you're a DQ {Dairy Queen?} agent), that my nickname for many years has been the "Mad Mutt", because most people have logically rhymed my surname with butter, or gutter, rather than the family pronunciation which rhymes with cuter or computer.'<br><br>I had the guts, or maybe IYSWIO (IN YOUR STUPID WORTHLESS IGNORANT OPIONION), the foolhardiness to post my real Parent/God-given name because the always nervous "slimmouse" attempted to call me out (Really Laughably) as an NWO Troll/dis-info agent.<br><br>YOU NEVER, NEVER, NEVER responded to my question about your TOTALLY MORONIC, IDIOTIC ASSERTION! WHAT WAS SO GODFORSAKEN UNFORGIVEABLE ABOUT LETTING YOU, OR ANY OF YOUR STUDPID DRINKING/SMOKING/SNORTING/DRUG-INJECTING BUDDIES (not to mention anyone else who reads this board) know who I really am???<br><br>Are you really so uninformed, ignorant of 21st century technology, and stupid as to believe that the PTB don't know Who You Are, Where You Live, Where You Work, Where You Shop, etc. I could go on, but I hope you're getting the last piece of the picture puzzle here. I, on the other hand, know very little (nothing) about you, except that here, on a worldwide accessable bulletin board, you made that really moronic assertion about me, and again, I say PERSONALLY, because I gave you my real name.<br><br>I DON'T WANT YOUR NAME!!! I'm in the pay of no one but the electric sign company that I "report to" 5 days a week, as art director (yes, small caps because 'titles' just don't mean that much to me anymore), in order to do something for "food & shelter earning" pay, that I happen to be very, very good at after 25.9 years. I don't care who you are, where you reside, or what you do to "Fool The Man Into Giving You Enough Money To Eat On Or Get Laid Or Whatever".<br><br>I just really am curious to try to know and understand what you meant by your assertion that "Revealing your identity is in character and unforgiveable for the beast with many names." As a military veteran & university educated, father of three, and grandfather of three more, I "JUST DON'T GET IT"!!! Care to explain it to me and the rest of R.I., or would you rather take the easy road by quieting down and hiding?<br>And, by the way, I'd rather you didn't hide. That's for trolls and agents.<br><br>Maybe, if you and the others can find your way to the end of this longish (for me, not for "slimmouse") post, you just might come to the understanding that everyone "out here" just doesn't "always understand" everything that "someone" posts. If you doubt that, just read ANY of the recent postings by "dragon feathers Jack"!!<br><br>Any comments, "colon"???????<br><br>Saint Alex the Pist!!!<br>Alexander Franklin Mutter, B.A.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Uncertainties Behind The British Curtain

Postby Floyd Smoots » Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:03 pm

I just think it's time just for a wee little bit, to bring this thread back to the top and point out that mr/mrs/ms scollon has never bothered to answer my one pertinent question. That, of course, was<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>'scollon, WHAT THE HELL IS "THIS" SUPPOSED TO MEAN?? I mean, I know I'm old (57), and semi-ignorant and semi-educated, but WTF??? "Revealing your identity is in character and unforgiveable for the beast with many names."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Why don't you answer, my little "Scottie Dog"? You certainly couldn't be a part of the beast with many tentacles, COULD YOU???<br><br>And,BTW, just in case it matters in any "moot" way, my paternal great grandfather, Alexander Mutter, arrived here in the U.S., on a ship, with his loving wife, Jesse, her daughter, Jesse, and their two sons, Will and Harry (my granddaddy) in the 1880's from (GASP) Dundee, Scotland. So I DARE you to accuse me of being antiscotmetic!!!<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Uncertainties Behind The British Curtain

Postby scollon » Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:34 am

Floyd<br><br>I answered this before. <br><br> You have grossly misunderstood what I said, I wasn't referring to you at all. For what it's worth though, I wouldn't reveal my identity on a forum with subject matter such as this one.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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We'll Close The Curtain, Then

Postby Floyd Smoots » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:16 pm

scollon, I can't blame you for wishing to remain anonymous, here, or on any website. I will believe your assertion that you were not referring to me. Now would you please tell me to whom or what you were referring? Cryptic quotes such as that one really don't tend to make any sense without any context around them.<br><br>Apologies,<br>Floyd<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: We'll Close The Curtain, Then

Postby scollon » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:21 pm

I was referring to the fact that one person revealed the identity of another. It wasn't remotely cryptic, not one little bit, not at all. That was a pretty repulsive thing to do. <p></p><i></i>
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