how come brittish fascists are considered "left" ?

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Re: low life who

Postby scollon » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:44 pm

We are a webring which seeks to transcend left and rightwing politics. We are NOT Communists, nor are we Capitalists or Fascists. We are not Leftwingers any more then we are Rightwingers. We are neither! We seek to move Forward, not left or right. <br> <br>Smash The System <br><br><br>Smash the barbie dolls first I say !<br><br><br>It doesn't even mention third way apart from one link. <br> <br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://c.webring.com/hub?ring=smashthesystem">c.webring.com/hub?ring=smashthesystem</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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racism

Postby ir » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:46 pm

Scollon, I don't know if you are antisemite or not (it just might be your way of learning, namely, to provoke first), you expressed certain such views to which I responded.<br> <br>I do support the Palestinians, and I also think there is much antisemitism expressed against Arabs (and moslems to a lesser extent), usually by the same people who hate Jews as such. <br><br><br> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: racism

Postby Dreams End » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:19 pm

The webring may be a bit broader than pure "third positionism", but it has plenty of links. <br><br>Here's from one (different set of links each time you visit the page, by the way)<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What Is Beyond Left And Right? Beyond Left and Right is an international think-tank rather then an outright organisation. We are dedicated to providing a "third way" beyond that of left and rightwing political movements.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://blr.folkandfaith.com/">blr.folkandfaith.com/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>But Scollon...the whole reason it is CALLED "third position" is its alleged transcendence of "left and right" or "communism and fascism". Hence the term THIRD. <br><br>I find both orthodox Christian nationalists, white nationalists, fairly progressive sounding anarchists (except for their racial views), "new rightists" (e.g. Alain de Benoist of the French Nouvelle Droit") all kind of in the same network. Not to say they are all the same...only that they all consider themselves as "a third way". <br><br>And since I have a hunch, scollon, that you have some knowledge of English third positionist groups, feel free to post your own links. God forbid you actually link to something like an EXAMPLE when you talk.<br><br>I found an interesting site from an English guy (forgot his name) who was explaining the various rifts in English third positionism. The guy himself was both brilliant and anti-fascist (though still promoting racial separatism). He was very annoyed at those within third positionism who were adopting overtly fascist views. <br><br>Oh, here it is. Synthesis editor Troy Southgate. Here's his article Blood and Soil<br>Revolutionary Nationalism as the Vanguard of Ecological Sanity. Already the name of the article is a bit Nazi-like for my taste. <br><br>Here's his take on the NSDAP...the "leftwing" of Nazi'ism in Germany:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>On March 6th, 1930, the National-Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) published its 'Official Party Manifesto on the Position of the NSDAP with Regard to the Farming Population and Agriculture'. This document claimed that the 'Maintenance of an efficient agricultural class, increasing in numbers as the general population increases, is a central plank in the National-Socialist platform'[8]. Furthermore, the Partly rightly acknowledged that the German peasantry was under attack from several quarters, namely 'the Jewish world money market - which really controls parliamentary democracy in Germany . . . the competition of foreign agriculturalists, who work under more favourable conditions . . . the extravagant profits made by the large wholesale middlemen, who thrust themselves in between producer and consumer . . . [and] . . . the oppressive rates the farmer has to pay for electric power and artificial manures to concerns mainly run by Jews.'[9] In place of this exploitation the NSDAP proposed that, amongst other things, land ownership be exclusively available to German citizens, that such land be made inheritable property (enabling peasants to become rooted to the soil), and that large areas be set aside for colonisation by an expanding German population. But whilst such policies were understandably attractive to ordinary peasants and back-to-the-land enthusiasts alike, when the Hitler government finally came to power in 1933 they were never put into practice. In 1940 Otto Strasser attacked the regime's Patrimonial Farm Law for the simple reason that it extended only to a portion of the peasantry and 'created three kinds of agricultural entrepreneur: peasants whose holdings were so small as to be unviable; middle and great peasants who are tenant-farmers; and great landowners who run their estates on purely capitalist lines.'[1<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 0] --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/alien.gif ALT="0]"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, alas, the characterization of the peasants as "under attack" by Jews is considered correct by Southgate. He also echoes the ideas of...well, "blood and soil", the mystical relationship between a people and their land that is the grounding of racial ideology. The emphasis on returning to agrarianism, primacy of the peasant class...<br><br>Here he is again:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Modern ecologists would do well to emulate the honesty and integrity of men like Walther Darre. Sadly, however, unlike their National-Socialist predecessor most of them are too frightened to accept that Race has a great part to play in the restoration of the natural order.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>Southgate's "Synthesis" site is part of the "national anarchist" movement.<br><br>When you see this symbol<br><br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://rosenoire.org/images/n-a2.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br>You'll know you are into something similar. That's not to say that third positionism = national anarchism or vice versa. As I said there are many "tendencies" within this movement.<br><br>Basically, my concern is that the whole philosophy is to combine concern with "the common people" (thumbs up) and ecology (ditto) with racial identity movements and (not including the anarchist strains) nationalism.<br><br>If you remove the anarchist part, you get something like Dugin and the Eurasian movement. Dugin was with the National Bolshevik party, definitely considered part of the third positionist movement. He has "evolved" into something more closely resembling "traditionalism" and has renounced (by omission, not by overt rejection) his occultism and embraced Russian orthodoxy. <br><br>Unlike the anarchic strains, Eurasianists see a regional superpower, comprised of Russia, much of Europe and even Israel! <br><br>How both these tendencies are "third positionist" can be confusing and I'm not completely up to speed on all the factionalism. The bottom line is that they reject capitalism, liberal democracy and communism and (sometimes) fascism, in favor of...well...a "third position." An emphasis on agrarianism, nationalism (of racial and cultural identity, if not an actual nation-state), and "organic" democracy (defined as something that can only emerge when racial groups are with their "own kind". <br><br>Synthesis seems like a good place to start. I have profound concerns and disagreements with Southgate, but unlike Scollon, he is extremely intelligent and knows how to present a coherent argument and a consistent position. Ultimately, "blood and soil" just brings up too many dancing swastikas in my mind. See what you think.<br><br>Here's the link to the article I quoted from:<br><br>http://rosenoire.org/articles/bloodandsoil.php<br>And the link to the main site:<br><br>http://rosenoire.org/<br>And notice that they link to the webring I linked to above. In fact, this is the site on which I found that webring.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: racism

Postby scollon » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:28 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But Scollon...the whole reason it is CALLED "third position" is its alleged transcendence of "left and right" or "communism and fascism". Hence the term THIRD. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Wrong again Barbie, the third way for both Mussolini and Blairites was a midway point between capitalism and communism. I mean that was silly if you think about.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The Third Way is a centrist philosophy of governance that, at least from a traditional social democratic perspective, usually stands for deregulation, decentralisation and lower taxes. It is embodied by such figures as British Prime Minister Tony Blair, former US President Bill Clinton, former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, former Dutch Prime Minister Wim Kok, former Australian Leader of the Opposition Mark Latham and Brazil's Fernando Henrique Cardoso.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The term (and a variant — Third Position) was first popularized by Mussolini in the 20s to describe Fascism, whose economic policy of Corporatism was seen as a solution to the perceived twin failures of Socialist attempts to develop a worker's planned economy and of laissez-faire capitalism.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Third Positionism

Postby albion » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:47 pm

I'm glad you mentioned Troy Southgate, Dreams End, because a few weeks ago I found some interesting allegations about him online and have been meaning to post about it. I guess this would be the appropriate thread, so here goes:<br><br>Southgate first caught my eye after I posted a link to his article about Baron Julius Evola in the <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm14.showMessage?topicID=45.topic">al-Qaida Satanist Neo-Nazis and human sacrifice</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> thread back in July. Recently I punched his name into a google search again, and found that a "national anarchist" named "D Michael" had accused Southgate, among other things, of having a suspicious link to a British security company.<br><br>The primary allegations are in a long article called <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.nationalanarchist.com/leaders.html">Against political leaders and leaderships</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->. In general, it seems Southgate changes his stripes quite a bit. He used to be a traditionalist Catholic, now he's a pagan/satanist, etc. <br><br>There's also some interesting allegations in there about some of Southgate's reputed associates, including the American Bill White, who you may remember as the "Hollywood-style" nazi responsible for inciting the recent riots in Toledo (apparently White comes from a CIA family). There's also some extremely suggestive stuff about a Pakistani named "Qasim Khan" (I suspect these names are all pseudonyms) who was spotted chatting up a 15-year old German girl online. There's more, read the whole thing...<br><br>Follow-up articles include <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.nationalanarchist.com/questions.html">Seven straight questions for Mr. Southgate</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->, <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.nationalanarchist.com/questions2.html">Comrade Troy Southgate speaks!</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->, and an <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.nationalanarchist.com/security.html">IMPORTANT SECURITY NOTICE</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->. <br><br>Also check out this article which talks about Southgate, <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://politicalsoldier.net/satbkltupdt.html">Satanist Infiltrators belong to quite a limited circle</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->, which appeares to be an addenda to an anti-Satanist booklet written by and for neofascists (btw, if that last link appears unreadable, use "select all text" or the equivalent command).<br><br>Overall, I disagree with the POV of those articles, but the micro-political wrangling among these types I think is very intriguing. I'd be interested to read anybody else's thoughts on this. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=albion@rigorousintuition>albion</A> at: 1/18/06 1:47 am<br></i>
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Scotland & England - Act of Union 1707

Postby Byrne » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:12 pm

referring to postes a wee bit back...<br> <br>The Act of Union of 1707 which joined Scotland & England within the 'United Kingdom' was essentially a bribe by the English to the members of the Scottish Parliament. A sum of £398,085-10s English pounds was paid by England as compensation for Scotland taking on part of England's national debt. The sum was also intended to repay those subscribers who had lost money investing in the <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.scotlandspast.org/darien.cfm" target="top">Darien Scheme (1698 - 1700) </a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->, a disastrous expedition which was undertaken by Scotland as an attempt to colonise an area in Central America (near Panama). The scheme failed partly due to English interference, and attacks on the expedition colonies/ships by the Spanish Armada & partly due to bad planning by the Scots. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Scotland & England - Act of Union 1707

Postby scollon » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:35 pm

All true Byrne<br><br>However Scotland went from being one of the poorest places in Europe to being the centre of the greatest empire in history.<br><br>Glasgow was known as the second city of the empire as a result of the tobacco trade with America. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Scotland & England - Act of Union 1707

Postby Dreams End » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:30 am

Dear Scollon;<br><br>Surprisingly, the term "third way" has a number of meanings. Hence this Wikipedia "disambiguation" page:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_way">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_way</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>On which appears this:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Another group in Britain is known as the Third Way (UK) (unrelated to Tony Blair's concept of the Third Way). This group was formed in 1990 and contained several former leading members of the British National Front. It claims to have disavowed racist politics and any form of fascism, and promotes economic decentralization (similar to distributism), Direct Democracy along Swiss lines, combined with support for ecological protection and libertarian views on some social issues such as abortion, gay rights, and marijuana. Critics of the group are divided some still regard this group with suspicion because of past ties to the National Front in the 1980s, and dispute their claims to have disavowed racism and fascism. Others accept that the group has changed over the years and point to its attempts to recruit from all ethnic and religious communities.<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_way">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_way</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br>As for second part of your quote...yes, it meant "corporatism" to Mussolini....central to his understanding of fascism. Or are you saying Mussolini, who invented the fucking term fascism, wasn't a fascist. Seriously, you really have to try to write such stupid things.<br><br>Here's wikipedia (since you utilized their services) on ENGLISH THIRD POSITIONISM. Try to pay attention.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>International Third Position (ITP) was a group formed by Nick Griffin and Derek Holland and as a continuation of the Political Soldier movement that originated in the right-wing British National Front in the early 1980s. With a very small membership the ITP preached a form of revolutionary nationalism that attacked capitalism and looked to the Strasser brothers and Distributist writers like Hilaire Belloc and G.K. Chesterton for inspiration.<br><br>International Third Position is also the name of an ideology (after which the British ITP was named) that combines nationalist and social elements, drawing from the early 20th Century Distributists, Social Creditors, Guild Socialists and other "radical patriots". As a variation of national socialism, critics on the left tend to see International Third Position ideology as a form of neofascism, while others see it as displaying characteristics of a leftwing ideology.<br><br>Initially the ITP distanced itself from traditional Fascism and Nazism, promoting "racial separatism" rather than crude racism. The International Third Position operated more as an "elite cadre" than a mass movement. It sought to become an umbrella organisation for various national revolutionary parties throughout Europe and the world.<br><br>Though a key formulator of the Third Positionist platform, Nick Griffin left a year or so after the ITP's formation. After circa 4 years he threw his lot in with the British National Party, which he later took control of by attacking and undermining the BNP founder John Tyndall. Derek Holland, though appearing at nationalist functions as late as 2002, appears to have retired from active political involvement.<br><br>The ITP changed its name to England First in 2001 and has since become a part of the European National Front with groups such as the German NPD, Spanish Falange, Italian Forza Nuova, Romanian Noua Dreapt&#259;, Polish NOP and others.<br><br>The most recent ITP/ENF gathering in central London in April 2005 drew 150 supporters.<br><br>Publications supporting the ITP in the UK are Final Conflict, The Voice of St George and Candour (which was previously published by A. K. Chesterton and is the longest running far-right publication in Britain). The movement also publishes a number of reprint books connected to its ideology.<br><br>This tendency, although sometimes referred to as following a "third way", should not be confused with either the political party in the U.K. calling itself Third Way (although this group also has its roots in the defunct Official National Front), nor with the centrist Third Way electoral movement.<br><br><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This movement is part of the International Third positionism I was talking about. <br><br>More links for the less intellectually challenged:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Summary:<br>The article offers a synopsis of a theory of fascism’s definitional core and its evolution in the century that is fully consistent with the ‘new consensus’ that has grown up in Anglo-phone fascist studies. Its main contestable features are that: a) its methodological premise is derived from Max Weber’s theory of the ‘ideal type’ which rejects Marxist, essentialist, or metapolitical notions of the ‘fascist minimum’; b) it identifies this minimum in a core ideology of national rebirth (palingenesis) that embraces a vast range of highly diverse concrete historical permutations; c) while fully recognizing the singularity of Nazism, the application of this theory to the Third Reich categorizes it as an outstanding example of a fascist regime; d) its application to the post-war era identifies new variants of fascism that have evolved a long way from its inter-war manifestations, notably those associated with Third Position and the New Right; e) it postulates a major organizational transformation within post-war fascism since its extensive ‘groupuscularization’, namely the emergence of ‘rhizomic’ qualities. <br><br>Full article here: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/theories-right/theory6.html">www.alphalink.com.au/~rad...eory6.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Relevant to IR's question but not specifically about Third positionism...but about the fascist inroads into the ecology movement:<br><br><br>        <br>Fascist Ecology:<br>The "Green Wing" of the Nazi Party and its Historical Antecedents<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.spunk.org/library/places/germany/sp001630/peter.html">www.spunk.org/library/pla...peter.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>Thanks albion, for the interesting links. Sounds very much like the other guy Jeff wrote about whose name I can't recall...part of the "Nine Angles" and then became a Muslim....all the while smelling of intelligence operative. What's that guys name? I'll check out your links later. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Third Positionists

Postby albion » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:34 am

I think you mean David Myatt. Yeah, if this is correct it may be a similar sort of "flytrap" scenario, although imho Myatt seems more like a street-fighting type wheras Southgate seems maybe more of a "high society" wannabe. And yes, clearly that whole scene is riddled with factionalism. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=albion@rigorousintuition>albion</A> at: 1/18/06 4:48 am<br></i>
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Re: low life who

Postby scollon » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:48 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Don't argue, IR. Scollon knows far more about Jews than either of us<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>So DE, are you Jewish ? Are you the cyber Wiesenthal looking for imginary nazis. The nazi hunter who when asked politely, cannot produce even one.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: low life who

Postby Dreams End » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:43 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So DE, are you Jewish ?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOL<br><br>Just when you thought Scollon couldn't demonstrate his lack of reasoning skills any further, he turns himself COMPLETELY into a stereotype. Unable to respond with anything like an argument, he wants to know if I'm Jewish!<br><br>That's rich. (Get it? Rich? See, all Jews are rich!!!) <br><br>Yeah, my last name is Rothschild, you dumb fuck. You might want to check your bank account next chance you get, you'll be in for a big surprise. Oh wait, that's right, your bank account is your little "My first Hitler bank" sitting by your bedside collecting pennies from the allowance your mama gives you. <br><br>You've done more to impugn yourself in this thread than I ever could with my alleged namecalling of you. Hey, for those who enjoyed this thread, check out Scollon's amazing grasp of science in the fake moonlanding thread. Though I wouldn't actually even blink if it turned out that the moonlanding was hoaxed (though I don't believe it was), scollon gets his ass so thoroughly kicked in that thread that it's really the funniest thing going. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Other poster: (Long, detailed explanation of some technical point)<br><br>Scollon: IS NOT!!!! And you're a retard! A Zulu retard!!! (wait, that was this thread.)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>scollon, seriously man. You are a joke of a troll. You wouldn't know a real intellectual argument if it crawled up your rectum and to keep company with your head. <br><br>Why don't you just skip on down the yellow brick road and see if the Wizard might be good enough to give you a brain. <br><br>Or keep posting...it's good for a laugh or two.<br><br>Or go out and hawk some more Henry Makow t-shirts, and free Zundel now bumper stickers, skim some of the profits, and go buy yourself a book on remedial logic. <br><br>Are you Jewish? <br><br>Seriously...stop. People are going to accuse me of being you just to make the fascist side look stupid.<br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dreamsend@rigorousintuition>Dreams End</A> at: 1/18/06 9:48 am<br></i>
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Re: low life who

Postby scollon » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:54 pm

I take it you can't come up with one nazi then barbie. What kind of little zionist attack doll are you ?<br><br>Three million wooly headed, useless, sub Makow level words on nazis and you cannot name one.<br><br>What is the third way again ?<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Don't argue, IR. Scollon knows far more about Jews than either of us<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Are you jewish barbie ? It's a simple enough question. IR is Jewish, she isn't ashamed of it.<br><br>Go on, tell the truth for once in your plastic life.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: low life who

Postby Dreams End » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:38 pm

Ummm...are you asking me to name Nazis while hounding me to tell you if I'm Jewish? Don't you find that just the least bit ironic? Or is it your attempt at humor? <br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: how come brittish fascists are considered "left&

Postby Dreams End » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:06 pm

meant to post this stuff in another thread. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dreamsend@rigorousintuition>Dreams End</A> at: 1/18/06 2:07 pm<br></i>
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Re: low life who

Postby scollon » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:11 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ummm...are you asking me to name Nazis while hounding me to tell you if I'm Jewish? Don't you find that just the least bit ironic? <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>No, I understand what the word 'ironic' means. <br><br>Let's start with an easy one. is Henry Makow a nazi ? You said he was propounding the same ideas as Hitler. So, whaddya think barbie - is mad ol' Henry with a similar grasp of reality to yourself a nazi ? <p></p><i></i>
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