RI "contributor" to the Truth Seeker?

[sunny]

Qutb said:<br>_________________________________________________<br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>That's true, but the KKK never took over the US government after an electoral victory and transformed the US into a totalitarian dictatorship which invaded all of its neighbor countries and slaughtered millions solely because of their ethnic origin.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br>_________________________________________________<br><br>KKK and their like-minded ideological brethen ruled an entire region of this country for the better part of 100 years,after electoral victories, lynching, burning, smashing, intimidating and otherwise waging war on black Americans and getting away with it, legally. I submit to you that their progeny are even now "transforming the US into a totalitarian dictatorship which invade[s]..neighbor countries and slaughter[s] millions solely because of their ethnic origin."<br>A generous amount of free speech could have prevented it all.<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sunny@rigorousintuition>sunny</A> at: 2/26/06 5:02 pm<br></i>

[Qutb]

RDR said - "I reject that notion. It's facile."<br><br>Well, Robert, you're a libertarian, so you're ideologically obliged to reject the idea that a strong government can be the solution to anything.<br><br>I assume you would have met the Nazis with "dialogue" when they were beating up trade unionists in the streets. And if you think that's a bad analogy to the Zündel trial, the very same neo-Nazis that Zündel has been supplying with propaganda and funds have been responsible for thousands of violent attacks on non-Aryans (mostly immigrants) in Germany since the emergence of the Nazi skinhead movement in the 1980s.<br><br>I didn't mean to over-simplify the political reality of the Weimar Republic, by the way. You also have to remember the fact that its enemies included some of its wealtiest and most powerful citizens.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[robertdreed]

"Well, Robert, you're a libertarian, so you're ideologically obliged to reject the idea that a strong government can be the solution to anything."<br><br>"A strong government" may offer advantages in some arenas, but policing political expression isn't one of them. And my obligations to reject that idea aren't "ideological", they're philosophical and practical. <br><br>The first violent political movement in post-World War One Germany was not the Nazis. It was the Spartacists, who were Bolshevists. <br><br>The most important lasting result of that revolt was the empowerment of the forces of right-wing reaction.<br><br>And if you recall, the Nazi movement was not initially met with "dialogue" by the German government. The leaders of the Nuremburg putsch were sentenced to prison. <br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 2/26/06 6:05 pm<br></i>

[professorpan]

Fuck Ernst Zundel -- I will not waste my breath defending that Nazi apologist piece of shit. <br><br>With all the issues to focus on, and limited time and resources to apply to them, I can find many more important free speech cases than that of a neo-Nazi thrown in prison in Germany.<br><br>I *do* think even the most hateful speech should be protected. And I do think Zundel should be allowed to publish his incoherent rhetoric in the U.S. But if Germany throws him behind bars, I'm not shedding a tear for him.<br><br>Sorry, Floyd, Zundel is not my <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>cause celebre.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> And I question many of the people who jump onto his bandwagon -- many, if not most, have ulterior agendas. <p></p><i></i>

[robertdreed]

I think Zundel would be selling tip sheets at the dog track if the recent Canadian-Austrian case hadn't put him back in the headlines. No surprise, all the attention has helped his bid for martyrdom. Likewise for David Irving... <p></p><i></i>

[Floyd Smoots]

I'm NOT defending Zundel's ideas or rhetoric here. To me, he was/is no worse than our own Skinheads and KKK. BUT, he was grabbed in MY GODFORSAKEN "FREE COUNTRY" by un-AMERICAN Agents paid for by MY GODFORSAKEN GOVERNMENT, in the Name of WHAT, EXACTLY??? FUCK GERMANY, FUCK AUSTRIA! Sorry, Jeff, and all you good guys up there, but FUCK CANADA. HOW GOD DAMNED DARE ANY CITIZEN OF THESE (admittledly) UNTIED STATES, under the "Color of Law", grab a legally admitted, visa'ed VISITOR, drag him off to CANALIA, and then let them SHIT (sic) him off to DAS VATERLAND to let the Remnant of the REAL NAZI's stick him in prison, just because they DISAGREE with his writings and speech.<br><br>Pan-fried, IF any country could make a substantial case for his promotion of International terrorism, and financial support for same, and make it stick, in any FAIR courtroom in the World, all well and good. But to IMPRISON ANYONE "becuz we jist di'n lahk whut he sed 'n' tha' crap he rote" is, to me good enough cause for them to come for your politically incorrect butt and put it away for FORTY YEARS, in a cell adjacent to MINE. Now tell me, if that happened, do you think you might just be persuaded to believe in a literal HELL???????? <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :evil --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>Chew on that, and give me a "Restaurant Review" at your leisure, sir. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :eek --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br> <p></p><i></i>

[Synthetic Zero]

I don't agree with the type of thought-policing that results in what has happened to Zundel, or laws limiting speech (of whatever type, unless it presents an immediate danger to others external to the individual who is speaking (but that definition in itself becomes shakey ground)), but I hardly find this sort of thing surprising. Any sort of spike in "crackdowns," such as we've seen lately, are cause for alarm, but that only ellicits a general reminder to my sense of perpetual wariness, because it is silly to presume as to who "they" are or what "they" want to "achieve" by directing our attention as such things.<br><br>^ What freedom are you fighting for? Do you even know? Take a step back, and ponder your "side" of things. It seems more and more precarious to presume to fight for any widespread group ideal, because they're all, more likely than not, just different viewpoints of the same object. (I guess I'm just saying: don't get swallowed up in a current of perpetual reaction, because such reaction, however opposed to the originating stimulus, merely becomes part of the originators' actions over time.) <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=syntheticzero>Synthetic Zero</A> at: 2/26/06 11:12 pm<br></i>

[Fat Lady Singing]

Hi--is it too late to jump in here? I know I don't have many board posts to my name, but I've posted a few times on the blog and in 2004-early 2005 I racked up hundreds, I think, over at DU, where I became acquainted with the writing of our host. I feel in this context, it's important for readers to know a little bit of my background.<br><br>Emotions are running high, I see. We're all skeptical about what we read after everything we've learned through channels such as RI. Many of us are downright paranoid--in a good way, I think.<br><br>But once you realize that "everything you know is wrong" (as the first big Disinformation book reminded us), you can flounder, as I have, hoping to find something you can grasp as Truth. In fact, it's probably fair to say we're all our own kind of truth seekers, here (except for those "they" folks, whoever "they" might be, engaged in some sort of infowar against "us", whoever "us" might be).<br><br>In that sense, and in only that sense, I can understand why some people might be drawn to the UK Truth Seeker or Rense sites (or others like them). I explored Rense for quite some time myself. I do believe there is some good information to be found there. Some interesting stuff can be found on Alex Jones' various sites, too. It's absolutely vital to question just about any official story.<br><br>I can see how it might happen. You question, find out how thick the layers of lies are, and you become the Princess feeling for that tiny little Pea. Eventually, perhaps, it doesn't even seem unreasonable to question the big horrible historic events that we--no, wait, make that "the sheeple", right?--all accept as Truth. <br><br>Question, yes--that's all well and good. Here's the problem, though: not everyone can figure out what constitutes a good argument or sound evidence. Not everyone is able to discern when a line of thought is built upon a house of cards or a solid foundation of fact.<br><br>It would be really, really nice if people with repugnant ideas based on shoddy research and thinly disguised racist agendas could publish their awful stuff and everyone who read it could see it for the crap it is. This way, everyone's right to freedom of the press, speech, etc., would remain intact yet the author wouldn't be lauded or the ideas used as a springboard for a murderous or hateful movement.<br><br>[Aside: who determines what is "repugnant," "shoddy," or even "racist"? Me? You? "Them"? See, once you get a-goin', there's no stoppin'!]<br><br>But because of our inadquate educational system and the anesthesia of our press, etc., our critical thinking skills just don't help us with the task of discernment. Most people worry about stuff like putting food on the table or finding love or tending to children. They put so much effort into these tasks that they need to partake in mindless entertainment during their spare time, to help them bear the weight of daily living.<br><br>If they have enough time and energy left over to care to think about the big issues that confront us, can we count upon them to read a variety of viewpoints on the issues? Can we count upon them to gather diligently, then weigh carefully the evidence? And if we can't, then what do we do so that horrible things like the Holocaust don't happen again? Isn't there something about being doomed to repeat...and history being written by some Victor dude?<br><br>My brain hurts! Can I stop thinking now?<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[Gouda]

One question, one quotation:<br><br>Where does hate speech end and conspiracy to commit violence begin?<br><br>***<br><br>"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities." – Voltaire<br><br>***<br><br>My view:<br><br>Zundel’s speech: Very Bad<br><br>Right to free Speech: Very Good<br><br>Zundel’s right to Bad Free Speech: Yes<br><br>Right of You and Me to lob anti-administration, anti-elite hate speech: Yes<br><br>Right of others to refrain from all hate speech: Yes<br><br>RI members inordinately relying on flimsy websites, sources and racist journalists: Fine<br><br>RI member’s Right to bewilderment or suspicion at why some RI members repeatedly rely on flimsy, racist material despite the wealth of more objective, substantive material & authors: Yes <br><br>Right of RI members to question other RI members inordinately questioning agendas and sources of other RI members: Yes<br><br>Right to rebut: Most Welcome<br><br>Right to immaturely, counterproductively flame others: Fine, in the firepit. <br><br>RI member’s (not in the fray) Right to Discern best, most credible info: Yes indeedy<br><br>Unspoken expectation of mutual respect and maturity between RI members: Yes, hopefully<br><br>Right of everyone to ignore the words of Voltaire quoted above: Yes, at our peril. <p></p><i></i>

[Fat Lady Singing]

Gouda wrote:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Where does hate speech end and conspiracy to commit violence begin?<br><br>"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire<br><br>(snip)<br><br>RI member's (not in the fray) Right to Discern best, most credible info: Yes indeedy<br><br>(snip)<br><br>Right of everyone to ignore the words of Voltaire quoted above: Yes, at our peril.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Gouda, that Voltaire quote is absolutely perfect and beautifully stated. Thank you so much for posting it. And thank you for posting your great, succinct statement of your position on these issues. Wonderful!<br><br>My worry is that while people have the right to discern, they may simply be incapable of discernment. Eventually, for me, my own feeble powers of critical thinking kicked in and I can't even remember the last time I visited Rense (to use his site as an example--I haven't looked much at the Truth Seeker to know much about it other than it seems to be cut from the same cloth).<br><br>I did not stop visiting because of the kooky UFO-type stuff, which I actually enjoy reading and thinking about even while making no decision about whether it's Real or True or real or true. That side of Rense is enough to drive a lot of critical thinkers away, rightly or wrongly.<br><br>Instead, I found his continuing support of Zundel to be problematic at best, and, although I'm as big a free speech nut as exists, it worried me that he made no attempt to challenge Zundel's assertions. I put Rense on my "doubtful" list of sources. His continued posting of those horrid Makow articles sealed the deal and made me abandon the site altogether. (Uh, at least I think it was Makow--it's been so long I've forgotten the particular retrogressive a-hole author's name, I guess).<br><br>How many people, though, would take the time to go through a similar process? How many people would say, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>hey, he's got some really interesting stuff here about Gulf War Illness and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> (that was my entry point, BTW);<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>here's this really great article about the awful aftermath of a hurricane--Hurricane Andrew, written and posted years before Katrina was a cloud in the sky; wow, he has the guts to question the official 9/11 narrative...but wait a moment! What the...? OK, now that I've investigated Rense's site thoroughly I've concluded that there is enough stupid stuff lumped alongside whatever valuable stuff there might be that it's just not worth my time or the effort to sift through it all.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>On the other hand, how many people will start reading, say, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>yeah, this makes sense, that makes sense, he's right about that...so maybe he's right about this other stuff, too. Maybe these authors only seem like jerks and I should question my own assumptions.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Or worse yet, how many just read it all and say, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>I don't have time to check this out, but because I agree with most of the stuff I see on the site, I'll just conclude that if it's on Rense it's probably true.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>I worry. Who has time to think? Who wants to go through the pain of having their illusions smashed to the point where it's nearly impossible to figure out what reality is? How has the American educational system prepared anyone to discern or to use the powers of logic? To quote the Prez, it's hard work.<br><br>I'm sympathetic to those who have never considered the ideas behind that wonderful Voltaire quote you posted, Gouda-- sympathetic, but unforgiving of those who do have the mental faculties and resources to consider them.<br><br>I'm just as worried that a lot of folks on RI, who I like to think of as being as Rigorous as they are Intuitive, are exercising their right to ignore Voltaire's aphorism. And if RI folks are...? <p></p><i></i>

[professorpan]

Rense has featured this graphic on his site for years:<br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.rense.com/1.mpicons/ztentacles.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br>I had always found that image to be expressly anti-Semitic, and so, apparently, did Paul Kimball:<br><br>http://rensewatch.blogspot.com/2005/06/rense-nazis-imagery-part-ii.html<br>Kimball has also done a good job of explaining the real "prisoner of conscience" Enrst Zundel at his site, also. Worth reading for those who feel compelled to trumpet the man's cause.<br><br>A dear friend of mine was so enamored of Rense, she refused to see that Zundel's logo was a barely disguised Nazi flag. It nearly cost us our relationship, but I am still amazed that she couldn't see what was clearly in front of her eyes.<br><br>That's scary.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[Qutb]

Thanks for the Rensewatch link, Pan. I hadn't seen that. <br><br>I'm getting picky about what information (or "information") I even bother considering. I don't even read anything that's featured on Rense. Those who say "well, you'll never agree with everything on any website" are completely missing the point. <p></p><i></i>

[slimmouse]

<br><br> Time to abandon all this religion crap ?<br><br><br> After all, its all just a pile of hogwash right ?<br><br> Just a divide and conquer deal ?<br><br> Answers on the square and compass emblem. <p></p><i></i>

[professorpan]

For what it's worth, both Truth Seeker and Rense have both posted material from my blog, without informing me or asking permission. <p></p><i></i>

[slimmouse]

Religion; The ultimate divide and conquer tool.<br><br> Are we getting close to some truth here ?<br><br> Exactly how many original creators are there ?<br><br> You guys are sooooo fucking funny. <p></p><i></i>