The Demon Was an Idea (Part Two and a half)

[pitcairn]

yeh Joe, even I now begin to wonder if we are ... not .... actually .... one and the same person !!!!!!!!!

or as a more paranoid person might surmise, a "tag teaming" duo, lol

okay hugh, in light of your real world experiences in event security, I see more where you are coming from in taking some of this extralegal physical movement seriously

but for balance, consider Joe's point about the eventual usefulness of folks like the clave clan; actually that possibility had occurred to me, but I thought better of saying it, as I hadn't a real world example to which to point. however I'm glad the subject was raised, as IMO it has real merit

in honour of Joe's dad, let's not forget the law's consideration of intent as a component of action: when erin brockovich trespassed to get water samples and documents (okay she did a lot by subterfuge, by misrepresenting herself and her purpose, rather than by climbing thro heating ducts, but still ... ), her intent was NOT to knowingly cause harm to the property or anyone on the property. I use that example cos her purpose was not entirely benign, either, from the perspective of her opponents, just to be fair here.

we could get into a very long discussion of the distinctions the law makes between and amongst reckless disregard, negligence, criminal negligence, trespass, criminal trespass, trespass with intent, breaking and entering, what "reasonable" persons know or ought to know, etc etc

but let's not do that yet, cos we're not there yet, and it can make eyes glaze over ....

what we can say simply is that so far in the US there are no lawful (that is to say permissible/lawful under the Consititution) statutes anywhere, other than those covering the shouting-of-fire-in-a-crowded-theatre scenario, that make it a crime to talk about anything you want to talk about; you can even advocate sedition, as long as you don't directly and provably incite or abet a crime; hey we have a first amendment, guys, remember?

the Patriot Act is unconstitutional, it cannot be legally enforced

I realise that's not stopping this administration from acting unlawfully

but at least make them work for it, don't, as Joe and I both have said, do their jobs for them

as far as "trespassing on federal lands" - I would just like to remind everyone what "federal" means in this context, as opposed to properties controlled by the military: federal lands belong to ... wait for it ... us.

we the people, remember? WE ARE "the Government"

WE ARE, in fact, "the Feds" - everyone else just works for us, at our discretion and pleasure and to the level of authority we grant them

of course there could and should be a larger discussion of just whose land belongs to whom in consideration of the native americans, but just taking things this far seems sufficient for the moment

btw, if you live in west virginia and the "feds" are allowing corporations to blow the tops off your ancient mountains, for "more economical mineral extraction," and corporate benefit, I contend that the "feds" and the corporations are the trespassers

btw, I do realise that canada has certain restrictions on freedom of speech that we in the us do not; I'll trust Jeff to keep us legal, canadian-style

[Burnt Hill]

Well it sounds like we are coming around full circle, and getting back to the subterranean subject matter i was hoping to explore here. Hugh i go back and forth between admiration and wtf with your stance. i think sometimes you take things way too far out of context but I understand why. Also I am thinking that when you bring up specifics from websites that have been banned that you are setting traps. If its so dangerous then why do you keep bringing it here? If my words can be misinterpreted, couldnt yours? you realize you threw around a lot of invective based on your own misunderstanding?. we are talking to each other here, in some ways preaching to the choir, though we are certainly a mixed congregation. I am certain that i am a simple man in search of truth and honesty, when you think i am laying traps, please lets discuss it like adults, perhaps i can reassure you, and you can and have enlightened me. After all, I am the one sharing this with you folks, if I am putting the site at risk then i am putting myself at risk. If I am putting myself at risk by applying some spirituality to some perceived malevolence, then i would hope that you would help shine a light in my support. we have a lot to learn here, and after all this is this is Mr. Wells site, maybe you should let him raise the red flags if warranted. And i do think that arcadias approach is way out of line, he actually stated that his misperceptions could cause us trouble. Anyway, back to building (digging?) on Jeffs original post, one of the most important ones I've read, and the sole reason I was sharing my experiences with you.

[Burnt Hill]

By the way mr manatee,et al, you are going to love this one, the same day the blessed pottery balls came, my wife had gone to the local thrift shop, as it is her thing(mainly she brings my stuff there, another story). but what did she bring home this time? and sat on top of the box of instant karma? well no less than an antique silver teapot.

[Joe Hillshoist]

I for one trust arcadia's intentions, and if I am not mistaken (been catching up on stuff I missed while away) he has said things he later felt regret for and been fully up front about it.

That goes a long way in my book.

Well it sounds like we are coming around full circle, and getting back to the subterranean subject matter i was hoping to explore here.

I have knownn a few cave clan crew, back in the day, and some other full on infiltration heads who do some wild stuff. Highly illegal by any definition, tho they didn't cause any criminal damage either.

But never have I come across a cave clan memeber who even siuggested any possibiltiy about aliens or shapeshifting icketillians (I coined that just then too )inhabiting the areas they love to frolic in.

Mind you I haven't spoken to any in years either.

Picairn you are a freak (in a good way of course ).

You are one of the few people I have ever heard bring up that mining bullshit in virginia. I can't believ that people think there is anything remotely acceptable about that, but thats another topic for another day.

the Patriot Act is unconstitutional, it cannot be legally enforced

I realise that's not stopping this administration from acting unlawfully

but at least make them work for it, don't, as Joe and I both have said, do their jobs for them

As Micheal ventura once said "Lets be frank we defend the constitution every time we speak freely."

And someone else said liberty is best defended by the exercise of liberty.

Good on them.

BTW hugh thanks for sharing about your personal experiences with public events.

it helps me understand where you are coming from, and puts your attitude in a place I can better understand and respect.

But I still feel that you may be overeacting. That doesn't matter tho.

After all, I am the one sharing this with you folks, if I am putting the site at risk then i am putting myself at risk. If I am putting myself at risk by applying some spirituality to some perceived malevolence, then i would hope that you would help shine a light in my support.

Although I may not completely agree with POV on this situation I think your intention in that context is an awesome thing in that the world needs more of this attitude however it manifests itself.

The risks you take on yourself are fine and you have that right.

What people here are woried about is exposing the person who set this site up to the same risk, when they had no part in initiating or possibly even supporting your actions.

The current political climate does make people jumpy, and we have to be aware of that whatever we post on someone else's site.

Anyway its a lovely Sunday Arvo here right now, the sun is shining, the sky is blue with fluffy white clouds and the vegetation is glowing 100 different shades of green.

Hope you are all experiencing some of the earths similar beauty.

[pitcairn]

Burnt, sorry about the thread wandering all over ... to the extent that I contributed (and/or am still contributing) to that I apologise

cos I do also think the initial topic bears examination and discussion, likewise the ufo topic Jeff started

has anyone done a poll here to see how many people have experienced anomalous events? do more occur in some areas than others? not all would involve ufo's or uao's of course

Arcadia and Hugh, I think maybe ... I wasn't quick enough to pick up on the differences between my world and yours, by which I mean I am old enough to probably be a parent to at least one if not either of you, and while it's okay that I put forward my frame of reference, I was slow to get a good picture of yours; thanks for the real world info, Hugh, that really helped set a context for me

as far as putting someone else - Jeff - at risk by putting oneself at risk on his board ... that's a good point Joe, each person only gets to make those judgments for him or herself, exclusively

and there is a difference between the usa and canada on some legal points of potential significance

I myself posted on the White Rose, though (where it all comes together) and my comments there could certainly have been interpreted as more suspect than anything BurntHill has written

in fact they probably really are further over a line that many here feel is real and ought not be crossed

so Burnt, sorry again ... your story really is interesting and I want to know more if you aren't fed up with all the interruptions
(btw, second hand stores are veritable repositories of potential synchronicity, in my experience)

[Burnt Hill]

well put Mr Hillhoist, and thanks for the food for thought. i am always willing to cut some slack, I am still fairly new here, but I wont be using that excuse much longer. its always been my way to try to kill them with kindness, and that is an approach i will continue to take.
But never have I come across a cave clan memeber who even siuggested any possibiltiy about aliens or shapeshifting icketillians (I coined that just then too )inhabiting the areas they love to frolic in.
Have I suggested that possibility? no. i agreed right up front to a rational explanation. Minus a few minor items , i love what you have been saying here. I am getting it about the risks suggested, but again, if you read my posts, that must be your inference, not what ive implied. And just because i am trying a new avenue, the Agni hotra thing, doesnt mean Ive bought into it. Political climate, and who was it mentioned Saturn rising? i have always hated astrology, but I am starting to wonder.The weather here on Burnt Hill has been unusually warm and what with our fruit trees and flowers, thats not necessarily a good thing, as a deep freeze is sure to come.(just to touch on the global warming thing). Any way this thread has been an experience for sure, must admit I am curious to see where Arcadias head is at now....to be continued

[Joe Hillshoist]

BH

Arcadia's cool. he is my friend and I always stand by my friends. Its an aussie thing. ( Well I hope its a human thing, but we claim its a vital part of our culture.) Especially when I understand their concerns. I was wondering a bit too, but you seem to be taking on the things that bother us and that is always worthy of respect. Noise causes more problems in communication than disinfo does IMO.

Have I suggested that possibility? no. i agreed right up front to a rational explanation. Minus a few minor items , i love what you have been saying here. I am getting it about the risks suggested, but again, if you read my posts, that must be your inference, not what ive implied.

Thats probably true. Sorry.

And just because i am trying a new avenue, the Agni hotra thing, doesnt mean Ive bought into it.

I like the idea behind the agnihotra thing.

I think people should prject that mentality about healing the world everwhere they go, with every fibre of their being, all the time.

But its nt that easy. I don't do it myself. Its a good thing to aim for tho.

I genuinely value this place. when it works well it can be an amazing experience. I'd like to think I help make it that way, and I try to how I can.

But even tho I disagree with Hugh's interpretations of stuff. I still sense the same intention behind his postings, and I know Arcadia has that intention.

Sometimes people might get overprotective of the things they care about.

That doesn't mean they are evil or nasty, just concerned.

But if we all work at it we can make things that strat out a bit ugly turn out quite beautiful.

Cheers

[Burnt Hill]

Thanks pitcairn, you and hillhoist have saved the day, as far as I am concerned. your wisdom exceeds your...wait didnt you say you were really old? Your wisdom and experience is greatly appreciated. lets continue to tell our stories, isnt that what makes us human? Now i must reveal that for the longest time i tried to rationalize the event i spoke of as goverment agents in a sort of tracking experiment on cattle in an attempt to induce , or prevent bovine spongiform encephalitis (crutzfeld jakob?something like that). i have never bought into the aliens from another planet explanation, partly why Ive responded to the Demon post by Jeff, I know this brings us back overground, but with the way some of these posts have been going , maybe we need a little fresh air. Any thoughts? Oh, yes there have been dead cattle, and more interesting, missing cattle, in our grazing area here.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

I appreciate all the wise things said here after my reaction to what I saw as going towards a very bad place.

No, I don't want us to talk looking over our shoulders for Homeland inSecurity or unPatriot Act tactics.

But I'm also informed enough to know that the internet and discussion boards are targets for 'psycho-political events' that can make a headline as cover for some government screw-up.

It's already happened so let's not lob a slow pitch over that plate in case there's a swing.
This crop of fascists is on the ropes right now and seem hinky.

As to the underground explorers, I'm not concerned about youthful explorers so much as those who could take advantage of them. I mean, look at Putin's little apartment building false flag ops that went wrong, thankfully, and was thwarted.

As I said, I work in public places that get high-security go-overs and it sucks.
Once on a flight in another country there were metal-detector doorways at the boarding gate and I watched a little boy with a huge backpack run around the detector. The guards with frikkin' machine guns laughed at the cute little boys antics. When I made gestures to the effect of "hey-what about checkin him?" the guards did not like that and pointed their guns at me as if to say "you've got a problem with how we do our jobs? Sure, we'll take care of you."
Ah, security. It is what they say it is and no more.

Looks like all the vulnerabilities of FAA and air traffic controllers were known well before 9/11 and this probably allowed the wheels-within-wheels plan to happen.

Anyway, you've all really said wise things in response and I appreciate that.

[Burnt Hill]

aw gee, you aussie guys sure are cool, I tip my hat and my beer to you. and I promise to play nice with Arcadia, and Hugh...thanks again for lifting me up with all your generous words

[Burnt Hill]

In the kindest and gentlest way-after my reaction to what I saw as going towards a very bad place.
Hugh do you think your reaction helped bring us to that bad place? and I know you are busy, and you have strong intent and purpose, which I appreciate, but could you try to answer some of the questions I posed to you earlier in the thread- or maybe i should start a new thread and pose questions directly to you, as per you and wombaticus? you have a strong Intellect and a great wealth of knowledge and experience that I wouldnt mind tapping into from some other angles?and maybe not drop the F bomb on me anymore? Its late and I am a little sensitive.

[dbeach]

back in 19777
I was on train from Nogalez to Mazetlan Mexico


I met this college student who told me of some majical place she visited with hippies near a green valley or hillly area and she was like
in another world
very green waterfalls no tourists she says it can be found but she was unsure where she was ...she was not from AZ

she thinks she saw fairies and pixies ..

you wont find it on the tourist maps.

I never been there
but I seen stuff with no scientific rational explanation

subjective experience or unexplainable phenomenon
or whatever

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Well it sounds like we are coming around full circle, and getting back to the subterranean subject matter i was hoping to explore here. Hugh i go back and forth between admiration and wtf with your stance. i think sometimes you take things way too far out of context but I understand why.

Too far out of context? Probably just in a context you don't realize or share.
I usually see things as not only localized phenomenon (stuff happens) but also examine to see how it might be part of a larger struggle to keep us in control and confused if not actually criminalized (fascism happens).

This means examing critically for the extremes of best-case scenario and worst-case scenario and finding where to place an event between those poles. Lots of people don't even know about the worst-case scenarios in MindWar and tend not to ascribe the status of 'big deal' to things I might. Even though I can be wrong, of course. But that's less and less often, I think. (Nevermind, Professor Pan. lol.)

Also I am thinking that when you bring up specifics from websites that have been banned that you are setting traps.

I think you mean, 'doesn't pointing out this liability actually cause it?'
Well, no. I may have over-reacted to your ATC interests but they were not isolated.
And my response was "stay the hell away from infrastructure like ATC and celltowers while Dragon and you were all about going up to them. That's the difference between my stated intents and yours.

If its so dangerous then why do you keep bringing it here? If my words can be misinterpreted, couldnt yours?

Yes, things can be misinterpreted but clear statements avoid that. Usually.
Some people hate clear statements and prefer to be coy with with mixed messages and
shellgames of "is it literal or metaphor?" I think that's immature but expected as people learn online what they really think and how to express it.

I've written things that I'd be horrified to read now since my outlook has developed and my language, too.

you realize you threw around a lot of invective based on your own misunderstanding?

My apologies for misplaced invective. And I can only offer understanding that it was well-intentioned invective. lol.
I read enough at this board to see patterns developing. Boards have cycles they go through, like other communities. There's a wave of BS rolling through right now and I think this board is on some PTB radar for some attention. I expect it and am not too timid or ill-informed to not look under some rocks. Any hints about approaching infrastructure are going to get a sharp response from me quite apart from how et in Arcadia ego feels. He's got more sense of this than I do from experiences I've only read about.

I was treated as a hostile when I first got here and for a long time I strove to utter nary but a soft-gloved word. Then I saw the damage that some well-placed BS could do to the place and decided that sitting quietly while the party was crashed was a lame response, too.

we are talking to each other here, in some ways preaching to the choir, though we are certainly a mixed congregation. I am certain that i am a simple man in search of truth and honesty, when you think i am laying traps, please lets discuss it like adults, perhaps i can reassure you, and you can and have enlightened me.

Hope this all catches us up. Lots of words under the bridge now. Topics broached, warnings, clarifications, apologies, backgrounders.

After all, I am the one sharing this with you folks, if I am putting the site at risk then i am putting myself at risk. If I am putting myself at risk by applying some spirituality to some perceived malevolence, then i would hope that you would help shine a light in my support. we have a lot to learn here, and after all this is this is Mr. Wells site, maybe you should let him raise the red flags if warranted.

This is not a very moderated site. It is more of a self-administered community.
But not gated. I'm not a gate here. I just have some historical education, 'moral clarity' and resulting vigilance that others are enduring. lol.

And i do think that arcadias approach is way out of line, he actually stated that his misperceptions could cause us trouble.

I'm not sure what his approach his. If you mean his sort of school bus driver-ly warning about turning in provocateurs himself to TPTB, I think he was making a point to all and any readers that this site was not going to be a base for anyone's physical sorties.
I can understand that without taking him to be a stooge or asset to The Man

Anyway, back to building (digging?) on Jeffs original post, one of the most important ones I've read, and the sole reason I was sharing my experiences with you.

Uh, what was the op again? The perils of seeing connections....heh.

[Burnt Hill]

Too far out of context? Probably just in a context you don't realize or share. Exactly my point, Mr Manatee. It is a context I did not share. A context inferred by the more paranoid posters here. When you took my original post out of context, everything you have to say after that is irrelevant and innappropriate. Once again, you have taken apost o.o.c. and used it as a vehicle to promote ideas which you say are dangerous to this forum. You even bring in specifics from a banned forum. Who is the real danger to this site? Mr Arcadia also requested me to bring specifics to my story, and then attacked, who is the real danger to this website? I may have over-reacted to your ATC interests but they were not isolated.
I know, you over react all over this site . Well intentioned invective is still invective. well intentioned hate is still hate. Well intentioned misinformation is still misinformation. Time for you to reassess what you bring here and the effect it has, Mr. Manatee.

[AnnaLivia]

0 0 0