AlicetheKurious wrote:Attack Ships on Fire, your ignorance is overwhelming, exceeded only by your thinly-disguised racism.
I'll even respond to your idiotic question:Do Arabs (and we are talking in a general sense here, not specific countries or regions) dress in blue jeans and a rocker t-shirt like a stereotypical American teenager?
(Above) Teenagers at this year's [Cairo International] Bookfair
Well, many do. Duh.
Of course there are some Arabs that dress in blue jeans. There are also some Americans that dress in traditional Arab clothing from different facets of Arabic culture. Again, I was referring to a general sense, vast tracts of land and peoples and culture in America and compared to the same in Arabic lands. And you give me a specific example. I can find a photo of happy American or western nations citizens of Arabic descent wearing traditional Arabic clothing. I see them all the time at my local mall, shopping in my grocery store and so on. But by and large the majority of people in my western country wear traditional North American style clothing and fashion. I still think my example is a solid one.
AlicetheKurious wrote:Afghanistan was under the brutal oppression of the Taliban before 9/11 and many horrible crimes were committed against average citizens by that ruling body. Saddam Hussein was a dictator in Iraq and committed genocide against the Kurds as well as murdered his own people in cold blood. I consider both of those examples of Arabic terrorism, to a degree. I also consider suicide bombers, like the ones waging their war in Pakistan and Israel, terrorists too.
Lovely that your memory only extends as far back as the Taliban, with regard to Afghanistan. Your opinions only make sense in the context of a HIGHLY selective and amazingly ignorant reading of history.
I beg your pardon? First off, the Taliban were around before 9/11 and in operation in Afghanistan more than a decade ago. Second, I didn't know that one of your conditions of using examples was time restrictive. Third, after reading your responses to mine I see that you have no mention of the fact that I brought up Egypt's Six Day War in '67 (or the matter that I believe Israel started it, but I'll get to that later in this message.) You are picking and choosing from my examples to try and paint a picture that a) I don't care about incidents that happened out of the recent times and b) that I'm some kind of anti-Arab bigot. I think that is a lousy thing to do in a debate. You aren't debating the facts that you brought up or that I brought up, you're trying to accuse me of personal biases when in fact I have shown in my earlier responses to you that I'm anything but pro-US, pro-Israel or forgetful of the middle east's past.AlicetheKurious wrote:The same with Iraq, in which the Americans have now murdered more than two and a half million innocent Iraqis during a decade of inhumane sanctions, followed by "shock and awe", invasion and occupation, not to mention the rape and pillage and torture in which they so gleefully engaged. The American atrocities in Iraq have, incredibly, made Iraqis yearn for the good old days of CIA-asset Saddam Hussein, even with his American-supplied chemical and other weapons, and his American-sponsored war of aggression against Iran, which cost the lives of over a million Iraqis and Iranians.
I share your anger about the atrocities being committed in Iraq by the United States in its war of lies. However, that should have nothing whatsoever to do with a response to my polite and well-reasoned response to your example of Egypt as a wonderful example of positive middle eastern tolerance. You completely side-stepped and dodged every one of my points that I gave as an example and instead turned to a screed about the injustices being committed in Iraq. You moved the goal posts, so to speak. Why? You're the one that brought up Egypt as an example and I took the time to research and present my response to you.AlicetheKurious wrote:As for the suicide-bombers "in Israel", how very terroristic they are, compared to the lovely Israeli one-ton bombs that are dropped from the sky on population centers. I suppose that, in order to comply with your standards of civilized behaviour, the Palestinians would have to use billions of US taxpayers' money to commit genocide against the Israelis.
At first I found it baffling that you would come back with this arguement, like I'm pro-Israeli policy or something. In case it went over your head, I was making a point that a suicide bomber isn't a good thing, no matter if the suicide bomber is Palestinian, Iraqi, American, Israeli or whatever nationality. Most suicide bombers that I read/hear about in my news are of Arabic descent and I understand that is because they don't have the privileged of being anonymous killers like the ones in Washington. Nevertheless, I also read headlines where innocent people have died as a result of suicide bombers. And yes, before you blast me back like there hasn't been any loss of Palestinian lives, I know fully well that more innocent Palestinians have died in that conflict over the years. But for God's sake, don't you find the death of an innocent Israeli child just as horrifying and tragic as the death of a Palestinian child, or are you trying so hard to dismiss any suffering of innocent Israelis because the Palestinians are due for their own payback? And how much is enough?AlicetheKurious wrote:"Syriana" was unfair to show a young Arabic man slow realization to become a suicide bomber?
You didn't see Syriana, that's not at all what it was about. You're talking out of your ass, as usual. In fact, even with its many faults, Syriana's plot was about what happens to an Arab leader with integrity, who wants to defend and protect his country's interests. In a scenario all too familiar for those who know anything about our region's history, he is murdered by the CIA in a false-flag terrorist explosion, so that he can be replaced by a corrupt, pro-American dictator.
Now you're telling me that I didn't see the movie...*sigh* I used one specific example from "Syriana" to try and get you to share your viewpoint on whether it was improper for an American-made movie to show an Arabic young man as a suicide bomber and you once again dodge my question and instead accuse me of not seeing the movie and being ignorant of the several storylines contained in the movie.
And just for the record, and to prove you wrong, "Syriana" wasn't solely about the Arab leader. There are several storylines in that movie including Jeffrey Wright's one where he's back in Washington and never steps foot in the middle east; there's George Clooney's slow realization that he's been working for the bad guys all of these years; and there's the point of view of the young Arabic man who comes to the belief that the only positive difference he can make to change his world is by blowing himself up. It is most certainly not solely about the Arab leader.AlicetheKurious wrote:As for human rights under the US-supported dictatorship in Egypt, you know, the one that US taxpayers bribe to the tune of billions of dollars every year to protect Israeli and American "interests" at the expense of Egyptians, it makes me sick when assholes point to that as an example of how that proves that Egyptians are not as wonderful and delightful as Americans.
Again with moving the goal posts. Are you actually trying to make be believe that it's all the fault of the evil United States and Israel that homosexuals are beaten by Egyptian police, or that journalists can be fined for writing criticism about politicians? Are you for real?
Alice, you would have had me on your side if this were a discussion about how the US interferes with foreign countries with its economic and military subterfuge. But the conversation wasn't at that point yet, and I have tried to address your arguments with my own. I get it now: you don't want to see any faults or flaws with middle eastern culture. You are using this "discussion" as an opportunity to present how wronged the middle east is by the west, by all of its citizens and nothing that I can say will lead you to admit that the middle east isn't a land of peaches and cream.AlicetheKurious wrote:Egypt has been brought to its knees by decades of being sucker-punched on the one hand by the Americans, who have literally gutted its economy and propped up a corrupt, oppressive government; by the Israelis, who have infiltrated and almost totally destroyed its agricultural base, leading to a massive deterioration in quality of life and public health; and by the American sock-puppet Saudi Arabian regime, which used billions and billions of petro-dollars to introduce and promote a poisonous brand of fanatic Wahhabism combined with sexual/moral corruption that has devastated Egyptian society.
For the most part I agree with you, but that's not what I was debating with you a couple of posts earlier, and that's not what you were debating either.AlicetheKurious wrote:Generation after generation of Egyptian human rights and democracy activists, men and women, Muslims and Christians, have been jailed, exiled or murdered by the US-sponsored dictatorship. For you to point to the US as the beacon of light, in contrast to which Egyptians wallow in darkness, is the height of hypocrisy.
I love how you've now assumed that not only am I pointing out that the US is somehow all-virtuous and noble and that Egyptians are in darkness. That's just how the right-wing neocons do it over here, you know?AlicetheKurious wrote:Get the f*ck out of our country, get your grubby, blood-soaked fingers out of the Middle East, and let its people decide how to run their own countries.
And I love how you have automatically assumed that I simply must be an American citizen.AlicetheKurious wrote:Decade after decade, we have sent you our best and our brightest: our doctors, our engineers, our scientists, our professors, our hard-working employees, while you have sent us your spies, your weapons of mass destruction, your depleted uranium shit, your exploiters, your blood-suckers, and your bribes to the worst and most corrupt, whom you elevated to rule over us.
Yes, because the doctors, the humanitarians, the relief workers, the educators, the scientists and I'm sure one or two politicians, reporters and religious leaders all were out to get you. For someone that thinks that I'm out to paint all of the citizens of the middle east with a brush of one color, here you are proving that it's a wonderful trait common in all humans no matter their birthplace or homeland.AlicetheKurious wrote:Keep pointing your smelly finger at us, while your boot is on our neck and your other hand is up our ass. We want freedom, and we want human rights, not because some Amerikan / zionazi hypocrites are expressing "concern" about the state of freedom in Arab countries, but because these are the rights for which we have been struggling since the dawn of the last century, against YOU and your kind.
There's a lot of anger in your words and I think it comes from having experienced some of the nasty crimes the west has committed against the middle east. Again, getting back to the original point of this thread and to something that I said earlier: then why don't some rich and entertainment-minded middle eastern investors get behind a film studio that hires middle eastern stars, writers, directors and so on and get a bunch of Arab-owned and made, mainstream escapist films out into the world's marketplace? Beat America at its own game! Make money from the dumb west that love to see aliens blast the shit out of our cities and zombies devour our population! Al Jazeera is a great example of how to beat the west at its own game, and furthermore, produce not just a profitable, high profile news agency but also win accolades and awards for its journalism. Make an Arabic Hollywood -- no one is stopping you and some of us over here would pay to see your films.AlicetheKurious wrote:Technology is used in the middle east just as in the western world. The advances to medical, scientific, agriculture and so on have benefited the middle east just as much as the west. So if the middle east wants to play with the same kind of toys as the western world, why can't the Arabic standards of social justice, human rights and tolerance be held accountable to the rest of the world? We're all human beings and thus every one of us should have the same rights as the other person.
And on that note and final ad hominem, I bid your adieu. Life's too short to debate with someone that isn't interested in hearing a point of view that isn't in full 100% agreement with your own. I've taken enough time to try and fashion a reasonable response to your examples and concerns and I don't appreciate you ignoring my points (save for your photo of Egyptian students in blue jeans, thank you). I think all you want to hear right now is universal condemnation for the wrongs that have been committed against the middle east, and even if a westerner like myself who agrees with you on the fact that the middle east has been abused and used by western powers for decades, if I don't fall in line with your thinking that all aspects of the middle east are untouchable and without criticism, then I'm one of your enemies.
I also don't like to take time out to engage in discussion with people that tell me to fuck off, so I guess that's the end of our discussion. I hope that you do see enough change and reparation for all the injustices that have been carried out against your region of the world but I also hope that human rights continue to take root for all the peoples in the middle east.