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Postby monster » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:06 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Especially when it happens hundreds of times with the same pattern of involving things power finds threatening.


Have you tried to find patterns involving things that power does not find threatening?

You know, as a control.
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Re: a wild and crazy guy

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:14 am

annie aronburg wrote:You're gonna LOVE Bowfinger.


Discrediting of a guy named "Ramsey" and a "fake movie" in 1999.

Could be just a coincidence but...Looks like Ramsey Clark vs NATO during the bombing of Kosovo.

Ramsey Clark was linking up with European lawyers making charges against the US for war crimes.

Not sure of the timing, but eventually evidence presented of NATO war crimes was cockpit video taken by a jet bombing a bridge with a civilian train on it. NATO altered the footage. Y'know, a 'fake' movie.

And Steve Martin wrote it? If he wasn't witting, than perhaps someone convinced him to make the name of the pompous fool in the 'fake movie' "Ramsey."
Projects that are close enough to fix up that have been floating around suddenly get turned into product when events make it worth the effort. Like 'Buckaroo Bonzai."

There's no way to find out who really is responsible for what words in a script, like names.
Just one or two people get credit no matter who offers input over lunch or a desk or some toot or sex etc.
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Postby Jeff » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:25 am

Happy premise #3: Even though I feel like I might ignite, I probably won't....
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Subliminal influences in advertising - limited hang-out NEW!

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:45 am

Jeff wrote:Happy premise #3: Even though I feel like I might ignite, I probably won't....


Oh puh-leeze, Jeff.

Here's some long after-the-fact normalizing of subliminal effectiveness. This stuff has been used since the 1950s and this article is still minimizing it a 'gosh maybe'-

http://www.neurosciencemarketing.com/blog/articles/subliminal-messages-work.htm

Subliminal Messages Work!
Thu 8 Mar 2007

Posted by Roger Dooley under Neuromarketing , Neuroscience Research


Exciting new research shows that subliminal messages do reach the brain, although their impact on behavior has yet to be demonstrated.

Scientists at the University College London (UCL) have found the first physiological evidence that invisible subliminal images do attract the brain’s attention on a subconscious level. The findings challenge previous scientific assumptions that consciousness and attention go hand-in-hand.

“What’s interesting here is that your brain does log things that you aren’t even aware of and can’t ever become aware of,” Bahador Bahrami from the UCL said. “We show that there is a brain response in the primary visual cortex to subliminal images that attract our attention without us having the impression of having seen anything. (From Subliminal messages ‘impact on brain’)

In one sense, this isn’t a huge surprise. Our past posts on priming, for example, show the impact of information that is assimilated unconsciously. And anyone who has read Malcom Gladwell’s Blink knows that the unconscious mind takes in a whole lot more than one might expect.

Still, it’s exciting to see proof that truly subliminal messages are processed by the brain. Certainly, it would be interesting to better understand the impact of these messages - would people actually act on a message to “Buy Coke”, for example? To some degree, this is of mostly academic interest. It’s hard to imagine regulatory bodies viewing insertion of subliminal messages as acceptable. Nevertheless, understanding how the brain handles subliminal messages will be of interest not only to neuromarketing devotees but the broader group of psychologists, neuroscientists, and marketers.

http://www.neurosciencemarketing.com/blog/topic/framing.htm

http://www.neurosciencemarketing.com/bl ... raming.htm

Articles about 'framing'

Mon 7 Aug 2006
Why Negative Ads Work: Framing, Emotions, and Irrational Decisions
Posted by Roger Dooley under Neuromarketing , Neuroscience Research , Neuroeconomics
[2] Comments

It’s no great surprise to marketers, or even most semi-aware humans, that people often make decisions based more on emotion than on rational processing of information. Oddly, for decades economists ignored this apparent truth, assuming that business managers strove for maximum profits, buyers and sellers slid smoothly along supply and demand curves until they intersected, and so on. While some simplification of complexity is necessary and useful - think of the ubiquitous “frictionless surface” so loved by teachers of introductory physics - sometimes it can lead to poor explanations of real world phenomena. Over the years, economists have gradually poked holes in theories based on purely rational behavior, perhaps beginning with Herb Simon’s famous work showing that business managers often strove for satisfactory, rather than optimal or maximum, results. In recent years, neuroscience has entered the fray, with researchers in the new field of neuroeconomics attempting to use the tools of neuroscience to get to the root of human decision-making. Now, brain scan work conducted at the University College of London by Benedetto De Martino offers intriguing proof of the extent to which emotions rule the decision process.

The “Framing Effect”. De Martino’s work is described in a paper published in the current issue of Science, Frames, Biases, and Rational Decision-Making in the Human Brain, abstracted as,

Human choices are remarkably susceptible to the manner in which options are presented. This so-called “framing effect” represents a striking violation of standard economic accounts of human rationality, although its underlying neurobiology is not understood. We found that the framing effect was specifically associated with amygdala activity, suggesting a key role for an emotional system in mediating decision biases. Moreover, across individuals, orbital and medial prefrontal cortex activity predicted a reduced susceptibility to the framing effect. This finding highlights the importance of incorporating emotional processes within models of human choice and suggests how the brain may modulate the effect of these biasing influences to approximate rationality.

The “framing effect” refers to the difference in response to the same question framed different ways. Is a product shown to be 99% pure good? What about a product shown to contain 1% impurities? Same product, almost the same question, but the way the question is asked may elicit sets of responses that are statistically different. De Martino put this issue to the test, by asking subjects questions while they were undergoing an fMRI brain scan. His questions were based on a simple gambling proposition in which people could choose between a certain option and a gambling option. From a press release describing the work,

Subjects were presented with these choices under two different frames (i.e. scenarios), in which the sure option was worded either as the amount to be kept from the starting amount (”keep £20″), or the amount to be deducted (”lose £30″). The two options, although worded differently, would result in exactly the same outcome, i.e. that the participant would be left with £20… The UCL study found that participants were more likely to gamble at the threat of losing £30 than the offer of keeping £20. On average, when presented with the “keep” option, participants chose to gamble 43 per cent of the time compared with 62 per cent for the “lose” option.

The interesting part is what was happening in the brains of the subjects as they made their choices. In every case, both the amygdala, the brain region thought to control emotions, and the prefrontal cortex, the brain area responsibe for higher level information processing, showed activity. Subjects that exhibited more rational decision-making also showed a greater level of activity in the prefrontal cortex, suggesting that these individuals were better able to balance their emotional response with a rational evaluation process. De Martino notes,

Our study provides neurobiological evidence that an amygdala-based emotional system underpins this biasing of human decisions. Moreover, we found that people are rational, or irrational, to widely differing amounts. Interestingly, the amygdala was active across all participants, regardless of whether they behaved rationally or irrationally, suggesting that everyone experiences an emotional reaction when faced with such choices. However, we found that more rational individuals had greater activation in their orbitofrontal cortex (a region of prefrontal cortex) suggesting that rational individuals are able to better manage or perhaps override their emotional responses.

There’s a great discussion of De Martino’s work in The Framing Effect at the Economist’s View blog. The blog author reprints a great number of charts from the article, and there’s a lively discussion of the relevance of this work to the real world.

What does this research in neuroeconomics tell marketers and would-be neuromarketing practitioners? First, it’s a good reminder of what marketers already know - emotions play a big role in decisions, and the way you frame a question can shape the answer you get. Second, it highlights both the differences in response between individuals as well as their similarities. Most marketing campaigns try to frame relevant issues in a way that makes their product or service attractive; this research suggests that marketers would do well to look for those emotional hot buttons - risk of loss, pain, etc. - and consider them as they lay out the issues.

Negative Advertising. When political marketers highlight obscure or minor negative information about a candidate, they are “framing” that information in a way that makes the candidate look bad. An incumbent who “missed 14 critical opportunities to vote on matters of importance to his constituents” sounds a lot more negligent than one with a “99% perfect attendance record”. Such framing is effective - political marketers have known that negative ads often work (as much as viewers hate them), and now De Martino shows, in part, why they work. 100% of the viewers will have at least some emotional response to the negatively-phrased information. While some “rational” viewers will be able to suppress the emotional response and look at the facts, and perhaps still others will view the ad through a biased lens (see The Neuroscience of Political Marketing), some portion of the viewers are likely to let their emotions rule.



Mon 12 Nov 2007
Political Neuromarketing
Posted by Roger Dooley under Neuromarketing , Neuroscience Research
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clinton brains
I’ve been waiting for the first news of neuromarketing in the 2008 U.S. presidential election, and it has arrived a full year before the election itself. The first few conclusions seem so obvious as to not require firing up a multi-millon dollar fMRI machine:

1. Voters sense both peril and promise in party brands.
2. Emotions about Hillary Clinton are mixed.
3. Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani are on opposite sides of the gender divide.

These were among eight conclusions of a brain scan study described in an New York Times Op-Ed piece, This Is Your Brain on Politics, credited to Marco Iacoboni, Joshua Freedman and Jonas Kaplan of the University of California, Los Angeles, Semel Institute for Neuroscience; Kathleen Hall Jamieson of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania; and Tom Freedman, Bill Knapp and Kathryn Fitzgerald of FKF Applied Research. The details involved in reaching each conclusion may be more interesting than the seemingly bland summaries. Here’s the Hillary Clinton one, for example: (more…)


http://www.neurosciencemarketing.com/bl ... keting.htm

The Neuroscience of Political Marketing
Posted by Roger Dooley under Neuromarketing , Neuroscience Research


Any experienced political campaign manager will tell you that the swing voters - those individuals who don’t have a strong party commitment - are the ones the candidate has to convince. This may seem obvious - it’s clearly going to be easier to sway a fairly undecided and uncommitted voter than one that has voted a straight party ticket for the opposition for the last twenty years. As it turns out, there’s a growing body of neuroscience research that supports the policy of ignoring the committed base of both parties (except, of course for “get out the vote” efforts for those favorable to the candidate). In late January, Drew Westen of Emory University announced the results of a brain scan study of how political messages are viewed by partisan voters. An MSNBC.com article reports,

“We did not see any increased activation of the parts of the brain normally engaged during reasoning,” said Drew Westen, director of clinical psychology at Emory University. “What we saw instead was a network of emotion circuits lighting up, including circuits hypothesized to be involved in regulating emotion, and circuits known to be involved in resolving conflicts.”

The test subjects on both sides of the political aisle reached totally biased conclusions by ignoring information that could not rationally be discounted, Westen and his colleagues say.

Then, with their minds made up, brain activity ceased in the areas that deal with negative emotions such as disgust. But activity spiked in the circuits involved in reward, a response similar to what addicts experience when they get a fix, Westen explained.

The study points to a total lack of reason in political decision-making.

While people not behaving rationally when making voting decisions is hardly “stop the presses” news, the study really points up the near futility of persuading partisan voters with even the most logical appeals. It also explains why sometimes seemingly corrupt politicians get re-elected in some areas. While voters outside the area may shake their head in wonder, what is likely happening is that all of the facts are being processed emotionally by many voters. Negative information is downgraded or discarded, while the candidate’s own explanations are reinforced.

“The result is that partisan beliefs are calcified, and the person can learn very little from new data,”

This raise major questions as to the effectiveness of political marketing. Are the billions spent on a news coverage, editorializing, political advertising, etc. all dollars down the drain? Indeed, in Is This Column Futile, Dick Meyer of CBSNews.com makes that point,

…market research tends to suggest that anyone reading these words right now is more politically engaged than most. So to the extent this column tries to point out contradictions, dishonesty and hogwash in politics and rhetoric, it is probably a waste of time.

I am, it appears, hitting my ventromedial prefrontal cortex against the wall.

The truth is that political advertising DOES sometimes work, and even editorial writers can have an impact. The people who won’t be affected are the most partisan extremes, but there are plenty of voters in the middle who still process information in a rational, or at least partially rational, manner. Time and time again, negative campaigning has been shown to be effective. While some of the appeal of negative ads is emotional, much of the content is presented as factual information: “My opponent accepted campaign money from crooks… She voted to increase taxes… He was absent for many important votes.” Truly partisan voters won’t be affected in the least. Anything short of FBI video showing the candidate taking bribes will be dismisses as opposition rhetoric without any critical thinking involved. Voters closer to the middle, though, will process this information in at least a partially rational manner (including, of course, judging the credibility of any claims), and may be swayed in one direction or the other.

Westen’s findings won’t affect campaign strategies in the least, inasmuch as they more or less confirm what political pros have known all along. I think the publicity WILL awaken a few political types to the potential input of neuromarketing. If you are running a national campaign, either for a presidential candidate or a political advocacy group, wouldn’t you spend a little to strap some independent voters into an fMRI scanner and see which of your commercials light up different parts of their brain? Of course, just like commercial ads, making the linkage between observed brain activity and ultimate behavior (in this case, in the voting booth) may still be a bit tenuous. Still, I’d be surprised if both parties and some of the bigger advocacy groups weren’t already running some tests or at least planning to do so.

http://www.neurosciencemarketing.com/bl ... riming.htm


Thu 24 May 2007
Product Contagion
Posted by Roger Dooley under Neuromarketing , Neuroscience Research
[2] Comments

product contagion

I recall the first mega-store that opened locally - it happened to be a Meijer store, though now Super Wal-Marts, Super Targets, and other stores that sell everything are common. It was interesting to watch what other shoppers had in their carts as they checked out - a gallon of milk, a floor mop, khaki slacks, and a chainsaw… one could start a creative writing contest in which entrants had to write a story based on shopping carts full of disparate items. As it turns out, there’s a downside to at least some of those weird product juxtapositions. New research shows that products that trigger subconscious feelings of disgust can “contaminate” consumer perceptions of other products.

Products like lard, feminine hygiene items, cigarettes, and cat litter trigger a disgust reaction, as do some less obvious items like mayonnaise and shortening. The research, conducted by Gavan Fitzsimons, a professor of marketing and psychology at Duke’s Fuqua School of Business, and Andrea Morales, an assistant professor of marketing at Arizona State’s W.P. Carey School of Business, was intended to explore how products like these affected consumer perceptions of other items in their shopping carts.

They performed a series of experiments in which participants observed food products placed close to or touching a distasteful product. In all cases, products that touched or rested against disgusting products became less appealing than products that were at least an inch away from the offending products. The effect was also enduring. Participants asked more than an hour after observing the products how much they wanted to try a cookie were less likely to want it if the package of cookies had been in contact with a package of feminine napkins.

The researchers say this behavior is not necessarily irrational, as it likely derives from basic instincts that caution humans against eating foods that have come in contact with insects or other sources of germs…

In one experiment, participants viewed packages of rice cakes — some wrapped in transparent packaging and some in opaque paper carrying a “rice cakes” label –that were touching a container of lard. The rice cakes in the clear packaging were later estimated to have a higher fat content than those in the opaque packaging. [From When Cookies Catch the Cooties.]

It’s interesting that packaging was shown to affect the degree of contagion, with products in clear packaging being the most vulnerable to subconscious contamination.

Clearly, marketers can’t control what shoppers combine in their shopping carts, and once the item is in the cart the consumer is almost certain to buy it anyway. It’s doubtful that this negative association is a long-lasting effect that would tarnish the brand or the consumer’s long term feelings about the product. I’d worry more about pre-shopping cart product contagion - i.e., on the store shelf, in displays, etc. Fortunately, most stores segregate their products by category, and one won’t find cat litter in the cookie aisle. Still, marketers should be aware of this previously unknown downside to clear packaging - while complete transparency assures consumers that the product they are buying is exactly what they expect, it seems that clear packaging subconsciously implies a degree of vulnerability. I’d speculate that in retail environments that aren’t well-lit and spotlessly clean, clear packages might allow the products to be “contaminated” (subconsciously, of course) by their surroundings.

These findings might also provide a minor boost for specialty retailers - products sold in a bakery, for example, may end up seeming more appealing to consumers that similar products sold in the bakery department of a megastore where the items will end up sharing cart space with “contagious” items. In the grand theme of neuromarketing, this new research seems to fit into the general area of priming, in which an individual’s subsequent perceptions or behavior have been influenced by seemingly innocuous stimuli.



http://www.neurosciencemarketing.com/bl ... eurons.htm

Thu 22 Mar 2007
Pain, Fear, and Vicarious Learning
Posted by Roger Dooley under Neuromarketing , Neuroscience Research
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Why to people react with fear when they see a snake, even though they have never been bitten by a snake or even had much contact with the reptiles? New research shows that the same areas of the brain that react to a personal experience involving pain or fear also react to watching someone else exhibit fear in response to the stimulus.

Study participants watched a short video of a person conditioned to fear a so-called neutral stimulus — something people normally wouldn’t fear — paired with something they find naturally aversive, in this case an electrical shock. The person in the video watched colored squares on a computer screen: When a blue square appeared, the person received a mild shock; when a yellow square appeared, there was no shock. The participant in the video responded with distress when the blue square appeared — he would blink hard, tense his cheek muscles and move his hand…

Participants were told they would take part in a similar experiment, and when presented with the blue square, they responded with fear, anticipating a shock, though they were never actually shocked. [From Fear can be learned through others’ experiences]

The study was done by Andreas Olsson and others at Columbia University, and published in the March issue of the journal Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience. We’ve posted about related observations in the past, in particular The Dread Zone: Anticipating Pain and various posts about mirror neurons. In each case, researchers show that subjects experience a brain reaction similar to a real experience when they watch someone else have that experience.

Looked at as a whole, this body of work suggests that advertisers have a powerful tool: showing real people undergoing an experience of some kind may affect viewers as if they were having the experience themselves. Fear and pain seem to be particularly potent, although that may be simply because those topics have been studied more; I wouldn’t want to see an avalanche of ads featuring fearful, suffering people.

One has to assume that viewers, consciously or unconsciously, assign a credibility factor to what they are viewing. In a research lab, viewing a similar subject get shocked when shown a blue square and being told one will participate in the same experiment would no doubt have very high credibility. Conversely, watching a horror movie where household cats become deadly killers may make us cringe when we see a child playing with a cat in the movie, but is unlikely to make us fear cats once we leave the theater. Commercials probably fall in some middle area of credibility - more believable than an obviously fictional horror movie, but less credible than, say, a non-commercial documentary or an in-person experience.

What’s the neuromarketing lesson here? It’s a bit of a stretch to go from fear research to making more effective ads, but I think there are several key strategies one can extrapolate:

1) Keep it real: Use real people, in real situations, with realistic reactions, to produce a stronger learning response than patently false situations, cartoon characters, etc.

2) Maximize credibility: This isn’t demonstrated by the research, but I think it’s clear that viewers discriminate between believable sources (e.g., the Columbia experiment videos) and less believable ones (e.g., horror movies). Hence, the learning response is likely to be enhanced if the advertiser can prepare the viewer with credibility enhancers like study results, a credible endorser or spokesperson, etc.

3) Be careful with fear and pain. Just because you can make viewers vicariously experience pain or fear doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. As I noted in the earlier Dread Zone post, the Lamisil toenail-lifting gremlin definitely makes me cringe, but does that build a good brand association or increase the likelihood of purchasing the product? Perhaps a convincing scenario with a real person showing clear relief after using the product might produce a more effective and profitable learning response.
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Postby Jeff » Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:06 am

No one ever said you didn't know how to cut and paste other people's theories, but you never provide anything like evidence to support your own bizarre examples.
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:48 am

Correction. I miss-stated the committee that Gaeton Fonzi's officially worked for even though I knew the year he was in the official investigative saddle.
And my case is firmed up by this clarification.

It was during the 1975 Church Senate Subcommittee hearings that Gaeton Fonzi was first officially investigating the murder of JFK while working for Senator Schweiker, not ONLY the later House Select Committee on Assassinations hearings which were 1977-79.

And the murder of JFK had been looked at in 1974 by the Ervin Committee.
This means it was very likely that Gaeton Fonzi was being talked about as a potential subcommittee investigator in 1974 if he wasn't actually providing materials to the Ervin Committee's people in an unofficial capacity.

This timing does indeed match the fact that the television greaser called "Fonzie" was first just a minor character on 'Happy Days' in 1974 and later became a lead character that took over the show only to later jump the shark.

From Richard E. Sprague's 'The Taking of America, 1-2-3' -
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp15.html
1974 -- The Ervin Committee investigated the JFK case during the Watergate period. Samuel Dash headed a team of four that included Terry Lenzer, Barry Schochet and Wayne Bishop.

1975 -- The Church Committee. A six-person team reported to FAO Schwartz III. It included Bob Kelley, Dan Dwyer, Ed Greissing, Paul Wallach, Pat Shea and David Aaron.

1975 -- The Schweiker-Hart subcommittee under the Church Committee had a team headed by David Marston, that included Troy Gustafson, Gaeton Fonzi, and Elliott Maxwell.


I could list all the JFK decoys in 'Happy Days' and the spin-offs but I'm saving them for elsewhere instead of handing it all over to the counterpropagandists.
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Postby brainpanhandler » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:49 am

Wrong. Persistent identification of KH examples that aren't grounded in the slightest speck of reality and that not even a cross-section of the world's most open-minded people (us) can entertain seriously for even a split second...That's a symptom of some serious form of mental illness. We're all a little bit nuts, but get real: None of us does what Hugh does.


I suppose there is no sense worrying about whether you're gonna get pissed off at me or not for failing to completely agree with you.

A majority of RI members polled about Hugh's KWH theories responded that Hugh "was onto something". Pan started that thread with the poll. I'll see if I can dig it up. I'd like to see the board polled again on the subject of KWH.

"Serious" mental illness? No. Seeing patterns in otherwise random stimuli is an evolutionarily advantageous adaptation. When I look at a bank of cumulus clouds and the otherwise organic, random forms coalesce into something recognizable I am probably using the same parts of my brain that evolved to recognize the tiger crouched in the underbrush waiting to pounce on me. Never get outta the boat There is probably a neurolinguistic corollary to this visual pattern recognition adaptation. I think the analogy is pretty fitting.

Serious mental illness would have to be defined as among other things existing along a continuum. A key criteria would be how disconnected from consensus reality one is. Defining "reality", "consensus reality" (and how it relates to "reality"), and quantifying the amount of disconnect from consensus reality is tricky at best. The extremes are more obvious. So for instance, psychotics have a profound enough disconnect from consensus reality that most of us can recognize a "serious" mental illness (although the value of these states of mind is not necessarily negative).

Pattern recognition run amok, as in psychotic hallucinations and paranoid delusions, is clearly symptomatic of mental illness although I don't particularly like to use the terms "mental illness". If extreme enough to impair a person's ability to cope with the world and/or be a danger to themselves or others then some sort of intervention is the only responsible and compassionate course of action. Failing those sorts of criteria I am unequivocally on the side of cognitive freedom, as I assume you are as well.

I have no evidence that Hugh is unable to cope with the world, is particularly unhappy or is a danger to himself or others. I don't think, based on the minimal information about Hugh that can be gleaned by me in this context, that I can conjecture that Hugh is "seriously" or otherwise "mentally ill", except in such a highly speculative manner as to be hardly worth the effort (and I don't think you can either).

None of us does what Hugh does? That is probably true insofar as none of us tends to present our pet theories and intuitions and moments of pattern recognition with such absolute certainty. I don't think that qualifies as being symptomatic of "serious" mental illness though.

(BTW Hugh, I apologize for talking about you, as if you are not here.)

FWIW, here a few "highly speculative" personal observations that suggest to me that Hugh is not the poster boy for a well adjusted, mentally "healthy" citizen of the world, but who among the RI membership is?

1. Tendency toward egocentrism, occasionally bordering on megalomaniacal. (certainty of conclusions, claims of important discoveries...)

2. Obsessiveness... as in, "incessant pimping". Passion for a subject can easily be mistaken for obsessiveness though.

3. Conjecture that spook agents are monitoring this board and Hugh's online activities. The former is entirely possible. The latter less so, but it fits in with observation 1.

These same observations would apply just as well to a number of other RI board members, maybe even a majority.

I assume, and I am sure you need no encouragement to correct me if you think I am wrong, that if Hugh presented his KWH theories with language like, " I know you guys might think this sounds a little crazy, but I saw this ad yesterday and I could not help but make the following associations... and having read yadda yadda...and so I am wondering if maybe it could be the case that the CIA.... etc", that you would then be less inclined to wonder about his mental health status.

If yes, then I find that a bit ironic in that you present your opinions with a force that suggests a high degree of certainty in your observations and conclusions, legalistically bolded qualifications aside. From where I sit you appear to have less evidence of Hugh's mental status than he has of the existence of KWH. (winces and ducks).

How you respond to this last paragraph will have an enormous impact on how we interact on this board in the future. If that matters to you at all, please take a deep breath and carefully consider what you write before clicking submit.

His incessant pimping of insane KH examples goes way the fuck beyond sincerity and simple wrongness. The only rational explanation for the insane KH examples, besides an explanation that involves him being dishonest, is that he himself is insane. In that case, he needs professional help. Some people who are on the nutty side can overcome mental failings on their own. Hugh, by all indications, is not one of those people. Continuing to support him in his current state of mind is irresponsible, IMO. Whatever factual basis there is to KH is continually undermined by Hugh's insanity, and for his sake and for the sake of psy-ops research, the only responsible response to Hugh at this point is to plead with him to seek a mental health professional and get his sanity back.


I think it is worth considering the possibility that Hugh is simply developing an audience and fan base. He's fairly successful at it. He's an entertaining and clever writer who understands the value and information density of metaphor and analogy. Hugh's threads consistently garner copious amounts of the board's attention. Admittedly not all of it positive.

There's a lot to be angry about. But I'm not always angry, I'm usually full of glad tidings. When I get angry, though, I get really fucking furious. I'm the kind of person who doesn't try to contain a sneeze. I treat anger the same way, as long as it's just verbally expressed.


We share this trait in common then. I just don't see the point of it in the context of a message board.

The other day I was in the deli of the local supermarket trying to figure out which sandwich I wanted to buy. (I bought one with some sliced up dead animal flesh on it :twisted: ). As I am crouched there thinking about my choice this guy rolls up with a shopping cart. He parks the shopping cart about 18" from me, which was already inside my personal space. Out of the corner of my eye I can see he is slowly inching the cart closer to me. When he got about 6" from me I stood up, turned to him and said, "Hit me with that cart and see what happens". He apologized and moved the cart away from me. 20 seconds later I picked a sandwich and went along my merry way.

We probably agree more than we disagree in that we recognize that USG intel agencies have been for some time now and still are utilizing neurolinguistic techniques, including KWH, via msm to shape and manipulate public opinion to their advantage, but that some of Hugh's examples strain the limits of credibility and potentially carry within them fatal logical fallacies.

I've seen that thought voiced over and over and over. In fact I am sick of reading that and I had vowed never to voice it again... starting..... now.

Coming from some of the board members I find that POV WRT KWH a cowardly non-committal more stimulated by a desire to avoid being pegged as a kooky Hugh supporter and thereby pigeoholed and attacked by the board's pack of Hugh attack jackals (as someone so appropriately named them) than it is by a sincere desire to remain open minded and agnostic.
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Postby brainpanhandler » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:05 am

Jeff wrote:No one ever said you didn't know how to cut and paste other people's theories,


Hugh is simply citing sources.

Jeff wrote:but you never provide anything like evidence to support your own bizarre examples.


Rewritten as, "You frequently fail to provide credible enough evidence to support the certainty with which you identify alleged instances of CIA KWH" and I would agree with this thought.
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Postby FourthBase » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:34 am

A majority of RI members polled about Hugh's KWH theories responded that Hugh "was onto something". Pan started that thread with the poll. I'll see if I can dig it up. I'd like to see the board polled again on the subject of KWH.


Take a wild fucking guess which RI member probably more than anyone else has posted the sentiment that Hugh was onto something. And I still think that there is something to the idea of keyword and especially meme hijacking, in spite of Hugh's continually insane examples, and partially because of the more generalized theories Hugh's posted.

Pattern recognition run amok is exactly what is wrong with Hugh's posts. Yes, we can all "see" random shapes in the clouds, and shit we might even see not-so-random shapes in the clouds, but can we distinguish between the truly random fuzzy rabbit-ish image in a cloud vs. a truly anomalous and uncoincidental cross-hatching of jet trails? Yes, we can, for the most part -- because we are sane. Hugh cannot, because he is by all indications not sane. Imagine if you stared at the clouds all day and constantly gave your friends and family unsolicited briefings on the bunny shapes the CIA manufactures in the sky. That's what Hugh does.

None of us does what Hugh does? That is probably true insofar as none of us tends to present our pet theories and intuitions and moments of pattern recognition with such absolute certainty. I don't think that qualifies as being symptomatic of "serious" mental illness though.


I have a pet theory about Scientology and the entertainment industry, and I'm personally quite certain about the general accuracy of it. But I'm not so fucking insane that I evangelize the theory by interjecting it in practically every thread on the board no matter how unrelated. I'm not so fucking insane that I fail to back up my pet theory with at least a modicum of logic and factual circumstantial evidence in the one thread I created to explore the theory. I'm not so fucking insane that I express 100% absolute certitude in every instance of the pet theory that I perceive. I am probably a little less-than-sane. But I'm not that fucking insane. No regular here is. Except for Hugh. Absolute certainty + absolutely fucking bizarre examples + absolutely tactless logorrhea = insanity.

FWIW, here a few "highly speculative" personal observations that suggest to me that Hugh is not the poster boy for a well adjusted, mentally "healthy" citizen of the world, but who among the RI membership is?

1. Tendency toward egocentrism, occasionally bordering on megalomaniacal. (certainty of conclusions, claims of important discoveries...)

2. Obsessiveness... as in, "incessant pimping". Passion for a subject can easily be mistaken for obsessiveness though.

3. Conjecture that spook agents are monitoring this board and Hugh's online activities. The former is entirely possible. The latter less so, but it fits in with observation 1.

These same observations would apply just as well to a number of other RI board members, maybe even a majority.


Right. We're all a little egocentric, obsessive, and paranoid. I'll even grant that I'm perhaps more so than most here. But of course, Hugh takes the fucking cake. He wins the egomania-monomania-paranoia triple crown by about 40 lengths. He's the fucking Secretariat of crazy.

I assume, and I am sure you need no encouragement to correct me if you think I am wrong, that if Hugh presented his KWH theories with language like, " I know you guys might think this sounds a little crazy, but I saw this ad yesterday and I could not help but make the following associations... and having read yadda yadda...and so I am wondering if maybe it could be the case that the CIA.... etc", that you would then be less inclined to wonder about his mental health status.


Precisely. I have implored Hugh in public and in private to do just that, not even as wishy-washy as you present it, but at least with some kind of reasonable, rational, logical, sane modifiers.

If yes, then I find that a bit ironic in that you present your opinions with a force that suggests a high degree of certainty in your observations and conclusions, legalistically bolded qualifications aside. From where I sit you appear to have less evidence of Hugh's mental status than he has of the existence of KWH. (winces and ducks).


Puh. Fucking. Lease.

What you're seeing is me reaching a single and total fucking breaking point with Hugh after years of sympathizing with him, encouraging him, and defending him. I've snapped at him maybe once or twice before, but I'd always held out the hope that he wasn't insane. That hope is gone. After a long time living with Hugh and his persona on this message board, after encountering his posts thousands of times: I've now reached the same conclusion some others here reached pretty instantly. I don't think anyone has earned that conclusion more than I have. Not-ironically-one-fucking-bit, I still provide alternate scenarios to my conclusion, albeit scenarios that are even worse for Hugh's reputation than mere insanity. But yes, I am absolutely 100-fucking-percent certain that Hugh is either insane or dishonest. One or the other. Nothing else.

How you respond to this last paragraph will have an enormous impact on how we interact on this board in the future. If that matters to you at all, please take a deep breath and carefully consider what you write before clicking submit.


Whatever, I am what I am.

I think it is worth considering the possibility that Hugh is simply developing an audience and fan base. He's fairly successful at it. He's an entertaining and clever writer who understands the value and information density of metaphor and analogy. Hugh's threads consistently garner copious amounts of the board's attention. Admittedly not all of it positive.


So...you think he's just a writer toying with us and testing us out as a fan base? That's tantamount to him being a dishonest performance artist, in which case that completely damns him as a presence here. A less negative context to that possibility is ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY NOT worth considering.

We share this trait in common then. I just don't see the point of it in the context of a message board.


I don't treat message boards any differently than real conversations. If that means I'm an asshole, so be it. I'm an asshole. I'm real, though.

We probably agree more than we disagree in that we recognize that USG intel agencies have been for some time now and still are utilizing neurolinguistic techniques, including KWH, via msm to shape and manipulate public opinion to their advantage, but that some of Hugh's examples strain the limits of credibility and potentially carry within them fatal logical fallacies.


"Some" of his examples "strain the limits of credibility"? No. Almost all of his detailed examples are utterly insane and are most definitely undermined by glaring logical holes. I (and others) tried to encourage him to focus on the handful of his somewhat reasonable examples, to employ some kind of standards by which he himself could rank the examples in order of evidence and likelihood, to maybe even put aside hunting the finer details for a while and focus more on the slightly-bigger-picture memes. But no. He's still ranting almost exclusively about fucking names, as if names in real life and fake names in pop culture never coincide accidentally, as if every instance of a pop culture name even remotely related to a subversive context is proof of a KH conspiracy. Even a fucking so-commonplace-it's-cliched name like ROBINSON. Again:

ROBINSON.

Even when the real and fake names don't even really resemble or sound like each other. Even when the dates and circumstances involved don't conform to any reasonable scenario of causality EVEN BY A PARANOID CIA-IS-POWERFUL-AND-DEVIOUS STANDARD OF REASONABLENESS -- although to be "fair", he takes his certainty down a notch occasionally in those cases, like when it became merely "very likely" that the CIA planned a nationally-televised-sitcom character's role to co-opt Gaeton Fonzi when he was just a Philly reporter skeptical of the Warren Commission and before he was ever connected to an official investigation of JFK, because of course every location where there is the potential for subversion is bugged by the CIA so that they will never miss a chance to use their limitless and untraceable media influence to almost-imperceptibly confuse and displace the surname of an obscure subversive figure in the utterly controllable synapses of the very-few-children-on-earth-who-would-ever-encounter-the-subversive-figure's-name with part of the name or nickname of a pop culture figure universally admired...or loathed, if it suits Hugh better. Did I miss anything?

I've seen that thought voiced over and over and over. In fact I am sick of reading that and I had vowed never to voice it again... starting..... now.

Coming from some of the board members I find that POV WRT KWH a cowardly non-committal more stimulated by a desire to avoid being pegged as a kooky Hugh supporter and thereby pigeoholed and attacked by the board's pack of Hugh attack jackals (as someone so appropriately named them) than it is by a sincere desire to remain open minded and agnostic.


I have zero fear of being pegged as anything by anyone here. I especially don't give a flying shit if anyone on this board pegs me as a "kooky" anything, given that this whole fucking forum is basically one big kooky A/V-club high school clique. I can substantiate every opinion and feeling I have, and can do so all day fucking long if I feel like it. If anyone "pegs" me as anything I'm not, then I might get pissed but I sure as fuck won't flinch. I am primarily concerned, here and in real life, with being honest, and figuring shit out. That's it. Secondarily concerned with communicating effectively, but that takes a backseat to being real, if need be. Sorry if this offends your protective sensibilities, but Hugh is a lost fucking cause, not even St. Jude can save him, only medication and therapy. Stand up for him all you want, but there's nothing left to stand up for, your lukewarm defense of him at this point is just an empty gesture. To be as pithy and turnabout-ish as you seem to fancy yourself: Your defending him seems to be more stimulated by a desire to avoid being pegged as one of that gang of brutish flippant Hugh denouncers, by a desire to appear open-minded and agnostic despite reality setting in that you should just give up on that shit because it's no use with Hugh. Open your fucking eyes and rightfully close your mind to the possibility that he's either sane or honest. He's either insane or dishonest. Get used to it.
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Postby Jeff » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:36 am

brainpanhandler wrote:
A majority of RI members polled about Hugh's KWH theories responded that Hugh "was onto something". Pan started that thread with the poll. I'll see if I can dig it up. I'd like to see the board polled again on the subject of KWH.


Here it is:

HMW's "Keyword Hijacking" is nuts. 21%
Some of his examples are nuts, but he's onto something. 50%
Pan is a jackass and should shut up and go away. 10%
HMW's "Keyword Hijacking" is real. 17%

Another reading of the data says that nearly three-quarters agree that either Hugh's theories or his examples are ridiculous.

"Onto something" is very squishy. I'd say he is too, if we're speaking in generalities regarding psyops. But my problem - one of my problems - is Hugh's appropriation of non-controversial theories of media manipulation as evidence supporting his non-falsifiable speculations, of which he is the sole authority.
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Postby brainpanhandler » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:01 am

Jeff wrote:
brainpanhandler wrote:
A majority of RI members polled about Hugh's KWH theories responded that Hugh "was onto something". Pan started that thread with the poll. I'll see if I can dig it up. I'd like to see the board polled again on the subject of KWH.


Here it is:

HMW's "Keyword Hijacking" is nuts. 21%
Some of his examples are nuts, but he's onto something. 50%
Pan is a jackass and should shut up and go away. 10%
HMW's "Keyword Hijacking" is real. 17%

Another reading of the data says that nearly three-quarters agree that either Hugh's theories or his examples are ridiculous.

"Onto something" is very squishy. I'd say he is too, if we're speaking in generalities regarding psyops. But my problem - one of my problems - is Hugh's appropriation of non-controversial theories of media manipulation as evidence supporting his non-falsifiable speculations, of which he is the sole authority.


Thanks Jeff. Agreed that "onto something" is a bit squishy. I was paraphrasing from memory. But clearly the data contradict the following statement by 4b, which is what I was responding to.

4B wrote:Persistent identification of KH examples that aren't grounded in the slightest speck of reality and that not even a cross-section of the world's most open-minded people (us) can entertain seriously for even a split second


I would think the data could reasonably be interpreted to suggest that a majority of us can and have seriously entertained Hugh's KWH examples for well more than a split second.

And without a doubt the "non-falsifiable" aspect of Hugh's theories wrt KWH are very problematic from the standpoint of assessing whether KWH is a valid scientific theory or not.
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Postby brainpanhandler » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:31 am

You wrote:
I wrote:I think it is worth considering the possibility that Hugh is simply developing an audience and fan base. He's fairly successful at it. He's an entertaining and clever writer who understands the value and information density of metaphor and analogy. Hugh's threads consistently garner copious amounts of the board's attention. Admittedly not all of it positive.


So...you think he's just a writer toying with us and testing us out as a fan base? That's tantamount to him being a dishonest performance artist, in which case that completely damns him as a presence here. A less negative context to that possibility is ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY NOT worth considering.


What I said is what I said.

What I did not say is, "I think he's just a writer toying with us..."

If Hugh were just a writer toying with the board then I would agree that that is the moral equivalent of being a dishonest performance artist and that in that case that would completely damn him as a presence here. But I didn't say that and btw, that would not be the greatest crime ever committed against humanity.

I have nothing but my sense of Hugh's online voice to support the following conjecture, but, my sense is that Hugh is sincere. I believe Hugh truly believes he is doing a service for the board and anyone else whose mind he can reach in shining a light on the USG's psyops methodologies.

That is not at variance with the further conjecture that Hugh will welcome rather than reject any remuneration he might gain for his time and efforts and that that secondary consideration explains some of his behavior.

If Hugh is just Hugh then I can say without any other qualification that Hugh is compassionate, clever, courteous, patient and generous. Those are qualities I appreciate on or offline. That would be true even if both the above conjectures are true.
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Postby FourthBase » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:19 pm

But clearly the data contradict the following statement by 4b, which is what I was responding to.

I would think the data could reasonably be interpreted to suggest that a majority of us can and have seriously entertained Hugh's KWH examples for well more than a split second.


Are you fucking serious? Look, sorry, but this is pissing me off.

Persistent identification of KH examples that aren't grounded in the slightest speck of reality and that not even a cross-section of the world's most open-minded people (us) can entertain seriously for even a split second


#1. In that quote there is no number estimating how many insane KH-examples-he-persistently-identifies-that-can't-be-entertained-seriously-by-RI-people-beyond-just-me there are.

#2. The poll shows that at least over 70% acknowledge that his examples are nuts either all of the time or some of the time. Even if a voter chose "some of his examples are nuts" because they truly think most of them aren't nuts, surely they would concede that the "some examples" which are nuts get identified by Hugh persistently, over and over and over and over again. Because that's the extent of what the quote from me can be claimed to generalize for people here at large.

#3. Please note that there wasn't a choice for "most of his examples are nuts" or "almost every single fucking example he gives is nuts".

#4. Please also note my use of the word "cross-section" which, although referring to the forum as a whole, still retains its inherent "cross-section"-ness, and therefore in the context of that quote shouldn't be misused by you to stand for "all" or even "most" of us -- even if "most" happens to be the case, which it is!

#5. The other 10% might have just wanted to stick it to professorpan, lol.

#6. And the other 17%, if they really find themselves thoughtfully entertaining a blatantly ludicrous KH example like "Hamlet 2" or "Dan in Real Life" -- yes, for a even a split second, literally -- should ALSO SEEK PROFESSIONAL PSYCHIATRIC HELP. I hope some people were only humoring Hugh on the recent "Hamlet 2" thing, because that's an excellent candidate for the most ridiculous fucking KH example of all time.

#7. Twisting the actual content of that quote into something meaning "FourthBase claims that no one here has ever entertained a single KH example provided by Hugh" is beneath you, unless you're just as fond of shadowboxing as Hugh.

#8. And with "a majority of us can and have seriously entertained Hugh's KWH examples" are you furthermore loading up your interpretation of the poll results with your own lack of a numerical modifier on "examples", to imply that the majority of people here have seriously entertained Hugh's examples as a general rule? If so, you fail.

#9. So: NO, WRONG. The data "clearly contradicts" jack fucking shit, and your "tentative" interpretation of it is far from fucking reasonable.

#10. Ultimately: It was just a fucking internet message board poll.
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Postby FourthBase » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:38 pm

What I said is what I said.

What I did not say is, "I think he's just a writer toying with us..."

If Hugh were just a writer toying with the board then I would agree that that is the moral equivalent of being a dishonest performance artist and that in that case that would completely damn him as a presence here. But I didn't say that and btw, that would not be the greatest crime ever committed against humanity.


Okay, that's great, and I agree. Wouldn't be the worst thing ever, but IF that were the case I sure would love to...[presses fingers to temples, massages, hums]...nevermind.

I have nothing but my sense of Hugh's online voice to support the following conjecture, but, my sense is that Hugh is sincere. I believe Hugh truly believes he is doing a service for the board and anyone else whose mind he can reach in shining a light on the USG's psyops methodologies.

That is not at variance with the further conjecture that Hugh will welcome rather than reject any remuneration he might gain for his time and efforts and that that secondary consideration explains some of his behavior.

If Hugh is just Hugh then I can say without any other qualification that Hugh is compassionate, clever, courteous, patient and generous. Those are qualities I appreciate on or offline. That would be true even if both the above conjectures are true.


You know what, I guess I agree with all of that too. Except, of course, you forgot to mention that his sincerity also involves being sincerely insane. In that sincerely-insane scenario, the one I find most likely, I guess I can also imagine him in a brief fit of rational self-interest seeing dollar signs in the all the attention (positive or negative) that's been lavished on him, so I see what you're saying there. Nonetheless, no one should be encouraging him. If he's not a troll/spook, then his fucking mind is sick, then it's not a joke, then it's not cool to politely humor him and fail to advise him to seek help.
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:35 pm

FB, you are too young to have been around in the mid-70s when US popular culture was turned into a 1950s theme park.

Do you see the value of doing this because of the social upheavels of the 1960s and the Senate committee hearings on the CIA's crimes of the 1960s?

Do you see the value of reinforcing the meme "one of the condemned group was really innocent" using 'Field of Dreams' for the IranContra President GHWBush?

And doing the same thing with 'Raising Arizona' for Senator John Keating Five McCain?

This is how subtle psyops is - using keywords, memes, and idealized narratives to PRIME the audience's brains to accept government cover stories. For instance.

I recently wrote that the 2001 Steve Martin movie, 'Novocaine,' is meant to reinforce perceptions of John McCain's integrity by minimizing his potential info-liabilities.

Did you know that Cindy McCain was addicted to pain-killers and caught stealing them from the medical charity she worked for"
By amazing coincidence, the movie is about a woman stealing drugs from a squeaky-clean by-the-book dentist (who dresses in white and roots out 'decay') but even she turns out to be sympathetic and exonerated in the end.
And more.

This is how hundreds of CIA-Hollywood movies are designed and why.
CIA runs mainstream media since WWII:
news rooms, movies/TV, publishing
...
Disney is CIA for kidz!
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