Where is the data?

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Where is the data?

Postby nathan28 » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:43 pm

I said:

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:

> semantic priming
> subliminal framing
> inoculation theory
> interference theory
> parasocial interaction


Do you have *any* data on the efficacy of any of those techniques? Do you have any data--rather than speculation--showing their deployment? You have a lot of information of the involvement of the MilIntel crowd in Hollywood and Madison Ave., but it's all of this sort-of vanilla historical flavor that requires reading and remembering names, places and dollar amounts, so you routinely neglect it in favor of this scientific-sounding (i.e., pseudoscientific) language about some shadowy, all-powerful technique discernible behind movie posters.

Though, I suppose, casting a discerning eye on movie posters is worth it from time to time:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/maulleigh/ ... 6/sizes/o/

(you can see Olga Kurylenko's labia)



So out with it.

Up above I see two "theories": interference and inoculation. IS THERE ANY DATA THAT SUPPORTING THEM? Anyone with an internet connection can learn all about things like Jose Delgado's experiments, or Sidney Gottlieb, on any of that mess, but why is there no data supporting "memetics?"

I don't want to see any works of theory about mind-control. I'm too old to believe that something like MK-ULTRA happened--except that there's DOCUMENTATION OF IT HAPPENING. I know that HMWs has data on lots and lots of involvement of Mil-intel in the culture industry--I just know that he also has a strange theory that uses scientific-sounding jargon and a lot of hypothesizing about it, but have yet to see anything compelling. Where is the real-world evidence of occurance--where are the historians and where are the documents? If you want to talk about Transformers 2 or Independence Day getting USG money and aid from the military, go ahead, that's certainly a psyop if there ever were one. But where is the documentation on this other supposed "science" of movie posters and news story being employed?
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:08 pm

Use a search engine. Read decades of academic and medical research papers.

Not sure why you didn't do this on your own.

Note especially "masked priming."
Check out the work of Posner and Snyder.

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:

> semantic priming
> subliminal framing
> inoculation theory
> interference theory
> parasocial interaction
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Postby compared2what? » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:52 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Use a search engine. Read decades of academic and medical research papers.

Not sure why you didn't do this on your own.


By chance, I'd already been doing that for longer than the five -- or is it now six? -- years you've been at it before your interest in the subject was even a liberty-bell-shaped twinkle in your eye.

None of the techniques you name work the way your theory would require. Neither does the human brain in general. It's not a disputed or controversial issue, about which many legitimate points of view exist. Or anything remotely close to it.

It takes much more effort and much more individually targeted effort to achieve that much influence over another person's complex and associative cognition.

And there'd be no point in doing that much work. You can easily manipulate people into supporting wars or tolerating the wars they don't support or forgetting remote and frightening realities they'd prefer never to have known using little more than human nature and the societal structures that rise up wherever it's present. Just as a matter of entropy.

Plus: Incomparably lower overhead that way.
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"If only I had a brain."

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:37 pm

Anyone who uses a search engine will be rewarded with insight into cognitive science and marketing as counterpropaganda culture-jamming.

Despite c2w's pile of professorpan-style
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Postby compared2what? » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:17 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Anyone who uses a search engine will be rewarded with insight into cognitive science and marketing as counterpropaganda culture-jamming.

Despite c2w's pile of professorpan-style
Image


Sorry, no. I am not making a straw-man argument. That might be valid if I were, say, shooting down some claim or line of reasoning that I made up and attributed to you for exactly that purpose. Since that's what a straw-man argument is. But I'm not doing that. I'm addressing a claim that you brought up, as you frequently do.

And that claim (which was made by you) is that the keywords and images that you identify work in mass media act as primes. Semantic or parafoveal primes. I don't recall you mentioning associative primes, but what the hell, let's just assume you that you have and that I've forgotten it. Because it wouldn't make a fucking bit of difference. My point would still be that there's NO evidence:

(a) that you can reach your targets with primes that are embedded in very sensorily crowded environments over which you have no control;

(b) that you can change the way people think about complex subjects over the long term even when you not only do go to the trouble of exposing them to subliminal primes in a clean context and/or a controlled environment, but also when you succeed thereby in influencing them without their being consciously aware of it. You might be able to make them more likelier to think they want a sandwich than the control group that didn't see, hear or and/or have the prime waved around in their peripheral field of vision, for example. However, as should go without saying, that's a different caliber of cognitive and behavioral influence from (not to mention one that engages different cognitive processes, neural pathways, and parts of the brain than) the kinds of stimuli with which you might hope to make them likelier to prefer one profound and complex understanding of themselves and/or the major political events that define and dominate the culture in which they live. Which is probably why nobody has ever, under any circumstances, shown that priming can do that; and

(c) that you can use any kind of primes (or any kind of stimulus, really) in a way that has exclusionary properties vis-a-vis any or all other stimuli. IOW, you wouldn't be depriving people of their capacity to notice and object strenuously to the the inadequacy of the Warren Report by using a character on Happy Days as a prime that triggered a semantic association with the name of an investigator for the HSCA. And that's even if it were possible at all semantically to prime them with that kind of stimulus. Which it isn't.
____________

You'd need much, much more exclusive access to someone's mind than that to have the kind of impact on it you're describing than any malicious and underhanded entity could ever conceivably realistically attain simply by dint of systematically embedding subliminal messages in the popular and mass media to which that someone was regularly exposed in the course of daily life. There isn't anything in the clinical or academic literature that comes close to suggesting otherwise. And obviously, there's nothing that scouring the internet with search engine after search engine for all eternity can do to change that. Because there just isn't.

As for your very classy subject line:

HMW wrote:"If only I had a brain."


That was uncalled for, Senator.
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:55 am

All those decades of scientific articles refuting c2w are still sitting there for anyone to read.
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Postby compared2what? » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:29 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:All those decades of scientific articles refuting c2w are still sitting there for anyone to read.


Links?
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:38 am

compared2what? wrote:
Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:All those decades of scientific articles refuting c2w are still sitting there for anyone to read.


Links?

Your search engine broken?

And you might want to warn the advertising and public relations and psyops industries that nothing really works and, sadly, they'll just go broke trying. :P

Just keeping people confused works as social control.
And is even more necessary online where a single keyword search might open a skeleton closet-

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy ... N=67414722

Distraction increases yielding to propaganda by inhibiting counterarguing.
By Osterhouse, Robert A.; Brock, Timothy C.
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Vol 15(4), Aug 1970, 344-358.
Abstract
In 2 experiments, 84 and 162 undergraduates listened to a discrepant communication while they were distracted by having to call out a series of lights which flashed with systematically manipulated frequency. Rate of flash increased acceptance of the communication and decreased postcommunication production of counterarguments. Removal of the effect of counterarguing by covariance analysis eliminated the relationship between distraction and acceptance thus suggesting that the present distraction increased yielding to propaganda by inhibiting counterarguing. The major result was independent of the extent of threat conveyed by the communication and of perceived personal influence with respect to the communication issue. 5 conditions were proposed for the successful replication of the distraction-acceptance relationship. (27 ref.) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2009 APA, all rights reserved)
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Postby nathan28 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:54 pm

HMWs: I asked for your citations. In every other business that relies on them, the person making the citations provides them. Loose Change has more substantiating documentation than you provide for KWHing or mass-scale "semantic priming" and "inoculation"--and Loose Change is so fucking wrong so many times it's hilarious. IOW, you're on shaky ground. Remember when Liam Nelson kicks out the ice under Christian Bale's feet in that one Batman movie, which was a pean to masculine violence and hyper-individualism without any USG-CIA "memetic engineering"? Do you even realize that "meme" is a metaphor, not a scientific concept?

I've asked for sources before. You are not in good faith on this w/r/t "keyword hijacking." I just need to remind myself that occasionally.
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Re:

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:18 am

nathan28 wrote:HMWs: I asked for your citations. In every other business that relies on them, the person making the citations provides them.
.....

I told you exactly where thousands were.

If you really wanted the information, you would just push the 'search' button.' See, that's how I found it.

Your move.
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Re: Where is the data?

Postby nathan28 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:57 pm

The problem, my sea-cow friend, is that you never actually show us your evidence, just your reasoning. I have reviewed a significant amount of your psycholinguistic armory. It's not impressive: you're rehashing Bernays. What I want is to see historical information: names of people who take part in this. For fuck's sake, if the CIA can't keep their MK-ULTRA and MK-SEARCH memos suppressed, if DARPA publicly lists spooky-ass projects like the TIA-IAO office that have since gone private (and been documented as doing so) there should be historical information about projects. Because as I have said, I find your theory weak.

Here's a typical Hughmanateeism:

"The Dark Night Poster shows a flaming skyscraper.
WTC7 was a flaming skyscraper.
WTC7 collapsed in what could have been a controlled demolition, which would have been and still is pretty scandalous.
Therefore, WTC7 collapsed via controlled demolition.

There's this thing called "inoculation" theory and "interference" theory/similarity effect.
A long time ago the CIA had a memo about using subliminal messages, despite the demonstrated inefficacy of them.
Therefore, USG-CIA-Disney is using a psyop involving the Dark Knight poster to 'inoculate" via similarity/interference against people believing that WTC7 was a controlled demolition.
This is a form of government control of movie posters.
The Dark Knight poster was a movie poster.
Therefore, all movie posters are part of a decades-long psyop.
QED"


We could call that highly speculative. In fact, you've been hostile to posts documenting actual military funding of TV series and movies. Why is that? Why can't you cite historical sources, documents or archives, or journalism, describing what would be allied activity? In fact, you're hostile to it. You treat us to some Wikipedia-level understanding of some concepts that bear out certain lab results but shaky real-world results, then post as proof-texts things that you and only you have the ability to elaborate upon and that others are fools for not seeing.
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Re: Where is the data?

Postby Zap » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:04 pm

heh, I was just wondering how long HMW could argue with c2w without comparing her to Professor Pan.
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Re: Where is the data?

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:46 am

YOU MANUFACTURED A "QUOTE" IN MY NAME.
DELETE IT IMMEDIATELY OR I'LL HAVE MODS DO IT FOR YOU.

I will not tolerate your own misperceptions being presented as my words.

This below is YOUR fantasy, not my assertions at all.
nathan28 wrote:.....
Here's a typical Hughmanateeism:

"The Dark Night Poster shows a flaming skyscraper.
WTC7 was a flaming skyscraper.
WTC7 collapsed in what could have been a controlled demolition, which would have been and still is pretty scandalous.
Therefore, WTC7 collapsed via controlled demolition.

There's this thing called "inoculation" theory and "interference" theory/similarity effect.
A long time ago the CIA had a memo about using subliminal messages, despite the demonstrated inefficacy of them.
Therefore, USG-CIA-Disney is using a psyop involving the Dark Knight poster to 'inoculate" via similarity/interference against people believing that WTC7 was a controlled demolition.
This is a form of government control of movie posters.
The Dark Knight poster was a movie poster.
Therefore, all movie posters are part of a decades-long psyop.
QED"

.....


What did you find when you searched up "semantic priming" or "lexical priming?"
How about "Ziegarnik Effect?"

You could start with college cognitive science, advertising, and the history of government propaganda.
Just start.

That is, if you were genuinely interested.
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Re: Where is the data?

Postby Jeff » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:04 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:I will not tolerate your own misperceptions being presented as my words.


Hugh has a point, nathan. Unless this is a direct quote, the use of "Quote:" is misleading here. Please edit the word out of your post.
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Re: Where is the data?

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:42 am

nathan28 wrote:......
In fact, you've been hostile to posts documenting actual military funding of TV series and movies. Why is that?

I'm hostile to limited hang-outs about the military services overt operations.
Plus there were some Brits who purported to be about to publish a book on US mil-intel relations with Hollywood but started out with an article about...UFOs, a topic that is used for viral-marketing disinfo by those same mil-intel perps.

Why can't you cite historical sources, documents or archives, or journalism, describing what would be allied activity?

I've loaded up several forums with historical sources-
Psyops and Meme Management
Culture Studies
Data Dump
Media Technologies

How about a Paramount Pictures/CIA mole's notes back to hq in 1953?
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... hp?t=12707

Here's some one-click shopping for you-
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=18523

The history and neuro-linguistics and marketing techniques and military doctrines are all available when you know what keywords you are searching for.

There are lots of black ops that remain secret. MKULTRA documents were all destroyed except for a few by accidental omission.

My research indicates, and CIA whistleblowers like Ralph McGeehee and John Stockwell and others have confirmed, that psyops is THE single most top-secret activity in a spook culture that is based on 'need-to-know-compartmentalization' and multi-layered deceptions...to motivate even the majority of spook culture with appropriate myths designed to make them carry out national security polices.

Re: Mosaic Theory.
The CIA wriggled out of Freedom of Information Act accountability by asserting that seemingly insignificant details in documents could be pieced together to expose sensitive security programs. They called this "mosaic theory."

Well, they were right. If you do a little research, you CAN piece together the agenda, goals, and techniques of covert psyops.
... concepts that bear out certain lab results but shaky real-world results...

If lab results, as they most certainly historically do, indicate that word recognition can be influenced to a bias of 50.0000001% in favor of a CIA agenda, then that covert bureaucracy will spend their securely insulated careers and zillions of available dollars attempting to achieve what ever level of real-world success they can using precisely that lab science. And that's what a historical examination of CIA-Hollywood indicates has happened.

So your strawman assertion that consistently high levels of psyops success would necessarily precede institutionalization of methods which I have found to be utilized since atleast Pearl Harbor...falls down.
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