Franklin, Chaitkin, Larouche, Oh My!

by **FranklinCase Admin** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:50 am

Will do, thanks for your work as well.

by **semper occultus** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:05 pm

Dreams End re your request on my earlier post : I dug out the references in a couple of books I've got - this was 1991 period - pretty much pre-internet & difficult to get hold of now - so I scanned them to the data-dump - see thread called "larouchie stuff". Dianne Core of "Childwatch" published a book "Chasing Satan" in which she identified the organisation. The LaRouch connection was in Tim Tate's book "Children for the Devil" - she seems on the receiving end of much de-bunking which means she's either on to something peple don't want publicised or not - depending on your point of view ! Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=semperoccultus>semper occultus</A> at: 3/29/06 1:14 pm

by **biaothanatoi** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:06 pm

The last few posts made for a really interesting read (once the "no planes" stuff went elsewhere). RE: Franklin vs Gosch, and RA vs MC. I think there is a lot of "blurring" of language between RA and M/C when it's important to keep the issues seperate. RA survivors and advocates often generalise M/C phrases like "programming" to all trauma-based manipulation, but if you look at "mundane" sexual/physical/emotional abuse, you see many of the same thought processes in those victims as well. Falling "in love" with perpetrators, being loyal to them, obeying them, dissociating on cue, are not the result of sophisticated brainwashing techniques. It's the natural result of brutality and trauma. Of course, RA perps do "programming" but we tend to look at all of the psychological impacts of RA as the result of specific techniques, which in actual fact they are the brains universal response to fear and terror. The deliberate manipulation of dissociation and hypnoid states is "programming", but much of what happens in RA is not. Ditto for words like "accessing". An abusive phone call in which a perp screams at an RA survivor until she is so scared that she does what she is told - is this "accessing"? Or is it just blackmail and terrorisation? If I pick up the phone on the winter solstice and hear a series of beeps and weird noises, that is "accessing". Someone shouting at me is not. The problem with the merging of the language of RA and MC is that it often gives RA perps much more credit and power then they deserve. It feeds into a borderline worldview in which there are only "victims", "bystanders" and "perpetrators" when the truth is much more complex (and more hopeful) then that. I know that there is a lot of overlap between MC and RA. I've been reading an interesting autobiography by an Australian RA survivor whose dissociative tendencies took him to the top of an elite squad in the Australian military. The govt wasn't responsible for his RA, and he joined the army of his own volition, but it is interesting that his DID proved so useful in the field. However, conflating RA and MC is fundamentally disempowering to survivors of both. It adds an element of conspiracy to RA that discredits and disempowers survivors in that field; and it complicates an already difficult fight for MC survivors. We have to be savvy in how we use language when we take a political stand - the perps are, and that's why they've had the upper hand.

by **chiggerbit** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:42 pm

Interesting distinctions, bio. How does the average Joe tell the difference? Does the mind control have a more professional, scientific base, feel? Does it have to do with intended vs unintended?

by **havanagilla** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:06 pm

THanks Biao...I am still not clear about the distinction. I believe the "experimentation" part is attributable to MC only, and of course the connection to gov sponsored programs as opposed to non state perps. I know that the UN accepts the existence of RA, as "non state torture" and some debates are held as to how to deal and eradicate the phenomenon. As for MC...I am not sure anyone is ready to deal with it. --- In my case, there was overlap, namely, that gov programs tap into RA groups as part of "coaching" victims, or simply as "trading" with their toys or lending them for money. I also think that some of the MC players, while out of the gov office they work for, are part of non state, civil RA groups. After all, how many very sick bastards can you find in one community? They must all go to the same club after work. -- The book you mentioned is interesting, can you give a name? this is an example for the enmeshment in real life, because the military is tapping into social problems as a resource, both for recruitment but otherwise as well. (techniques, for instance). In high security facilities, such as the nuclear plant in SIrael and such like, there is high presence of incest, for instance. So, perhaps the desease is part of the requirements or after recruitment, something happens. this is just another example of overlapping. (in this case, incest/top security work).

by **biaothanatoi** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:26 pm

There is a fairly broad definition of M/C, I think - thought reform, programming, classical and operant conditioning, drugs, etc. Happens in a variety of contexts - govt experimentation, but also in theatres of war, in 'reeducation' camps, fascist regimes, etc. "Programming" (to my mind) relates specifically to the use of techniques that manipulate dissociation, trauma and hypnoid states to alter the cognitive function of another person. In RA "programming", perps induce these states and then exploit them. However, those states are natural defences against harm, and they are evident in all situations of abuse. This doesn't meant that every perp (RA or not) is a "programmer" - far from it. We all know how to hurt other people. If we put our minds to it, we know how to hurt other people pretty badly. Many of the cognitive distortions that we see in RA victims (I am bad, I deserve it, they do it because they love me, I am ashamed, I am dirty, I should kill myself) are the inevitable result of early childhood trauma. They may be reinforced by programming, but they don't come from programming. And, yeah, I do think that the distinction comes down to the perps deliberate use of techniques. But I think we also have to wonder where these "techniques" come from - and I don't think it's a trickle-down from Project Monarch - I think they get their "techniques" from the same place that the abusive spouse or incestuous grandfather get their "techniques" from - which is the profoundly sadistic sexual impulse that is in all of us. In RA groups, much of what they do comes from those universal cognitive trauma distortions that I listed above. The abused child internalises those thoughts, but the RA group embraces them, systematises them, articulates them and inflicts them over and over again. It looks like a belief system, but I think it's just a lot of f-ed up people getting together and making a big f-ed up hive mind.

by **biaothanatoi** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:42 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I believe the "experimentation" part is attributable to MC only, and of course the connection to gov sponsored programs as opposed to non state perps.<hr></blockquote> Depends on what you mean by “experiment”. RA perp groups must go through a learning/experimentation process with their methods of control as they fine-tune them. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>As for MC...I am not sure anyone is ready to deal with it.<hr></blockquote> I think you are right. It’s another reason to make that distinction between RA and MC – establish a foundation for further action by getting non-state RA dealt with. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>In my case, there was overlap, namely, that gov programs tap into RA groups as part of "coaching" victims, or simply as "trading" with their toys or lending them for money.<hr></blockquote> It’s incredible how “convenient” dissociation is. My RA friend has been going to aerobics classes recently and finding it really hard to follow the steps. Why? Because she instantly dissociates in group settings and she is only obedient when in that state – she can’t anticipate the next dance move no matter how many times she goes. If you were a perp of any kind – imagine – a woman who automatically enters a state of obedience and amnesia in certain situations. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The book you mentioned is interesting, can you give a name?<hr></blockquote> Tim Roy, “Little Tim Big Tim”. I’ve got his email address if you want a copy. There is no indication that the army “made him” sign up, but it was interesting that dissociation was useful when he was there. Although it eventually got him kicked out - he kept dissociating and pointing his gun at trainers/commanders. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>So, perhaps the desease is part of the requirements or after recruitment, something happens.<hr></blockquote> One of the problems is that we think about “paedophiles” as preferential offenders – they have a “sickness”, a “sexual orientation”, they “prefer” to have sex with children. But the only perps that get caught/locked up are the “sick” ones – the solo ones, the compulsive ones, the most shameless, the most stupid. In RA, we’ve got a problem with “cultures of power”. In some environments, sex with children can become valued simply because it is taboo – so if you do it, and get away with it, it’s an expression of your superiority and your power and your virility. It’s only a few steps from there to Crowley’s “secret workings” in which sodomy vampirizes a child’s “life energy” etc. These men don’t “prefer” to have sex with children, it’s about their socialization into groups that claim to be “elite” and use children instrumentally to prove it.

by **chiggerbit** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:46 pm

Where does the gov/"scientific" MK community get their victims, I mean subjects?

by sw » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:59 pm

by **havanagilla** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:10 am

yes, SW same here. I think lots of subjects are kids of military/security personel. Others are marginalized groups who would be at risk, immigrants, poor, minority. depends on the kind of program. For "gifted" kids, i think there is tapping into kids of personel, those who seem to be less aware or vulnerable. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 3/29/06 9:53 pm

by **chiggerbit** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:19 am

Do either of you remember being tested, say for IQ, or other reasons?

by **havanagilla** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:23 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>My RA friend has been going to aerobics classes recently and finding it really hard to follow the steps. Why? Because she instantly dissociates in group settings and she is only obedient when in that state – she can’t anticipate the next dance move no matter how many times she goes.<hr></blockquote> same here, and thanks for this description, it is very helpful to me, although triggering. same, here, on edit. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 3/29/06 9:55 pm

by **havanagilla** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:33 am

Yes, Chigger. I was tested several times for iq on edit - for none-identification, removing some stuff Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 3/29/06 9:55 pm

by **chiggerbit** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:36 am

I'm wondering if "testing" is significant, one of the distinctions. called "columbia U. Ohhh, my! Sorry, hava. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 3/29/06 9:40 pm

by **biaothanatoi** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:52 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>However, while dealing with it on line, or methodically or in places such as here, the overlapping of discussion is useful, in my opinion.<hr></blockquote> I was thinking more in terms of language and the way we speak then "splitting" resources. The RA survivor movement is too glib about MC words like "programming" and "accessing". When we say "programming" we are often talking about the symptoms of complex/Type II PTSD. Equally, when we say "accessing" we are often talking about stalking, terrorisation, etc. We need to be smart about the way we speak. Letting issues bleed together makes them appear more intractable then they are. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>In addition, since the boundaries NOW between "gov" and "private sector" mainly corps, is very fuzzy<hr></blockquote> But that is the nature of organised crime of any kind. Organised crime can only occur if people in positions of power are involved.

Franklin, Chaitkin, Larouche, Oh My!

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