Moderators: DrVolin, 82_28, Elvis, Jeff


Postby jaemspayntelosnet » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:05 pm

I lived at the Finders "inner city commune"(?) cult(?) whatever in the fall and winter of
1976-1977. I can't say that I joined the Finders or was let in on their secrets. They used
the terminology of 'thumbs and fingers' with the thumbs manipulating the fingers. You
can guess that I was thought of as a finger. I lived in their Glover Park apartments
because it was cheap. I had been crashing at a friend's apartment in the neighborhood. He
gave me this note he had found tacked up in the neighborhood - "A place to stay, a dollar
a day. It was time for me to move on. This was a place a professional saxophone player
recovering from a lung collapse could afford. What do you call a musician wha has
broken up with their girlfriend? - homeless.<br> The first night I spent there a woman
came to my bed and gave me a blow job. In my typical male way of thinking I thought I
would return the favor by fucking her but her pussy would just not relax. In the days
following, there was no more relationship with (damn I can't rememeber her name) but I
sensed that there was something missing from her - not completely here in reality. Much
was happening at the Finders as there always is. They undertook this experiment – pack
the apartments with people and see what happens. WE now had 10-12 people living in a
1 or 2 bedroom apartnment. (Christine was the name of the woman. She had red hair and
a thin build. She was in her 20's.)<br>At this time in American history there was the
buzzword policy of de-insitutionalization. Many of the new residents of these apartments
were recent releasees of St E's. One apartment was so successful that when the Finder's
decided to end the experiment, they rebelled. The Finders simply turned off the gas and
electricity to that apartment to make them move. The Finders operate by showing a
friendly and playful outer appearance -higher games they say they play - but I discerned
a cold intelligence operating just below the surface. When I saw this, I moved out to the
suburbs with an older woman I met through the Finders. At one point she was unfaithful
to me with a Finder's psychologist named Beltz.<br>Although married, Marion Petty
had a mistress at the Finders. A short time after I moved, she had some kind of flu-like
illness that killed her.<br> One time at the Finders I gave a ride to Long Island to a
woman who had worked in Marvin Minsky's AI lab. This woman was crazy and
appeared to me to recently having had a nervous breakdown. I also gave a ride to this
guy named George. We spent the night at a friend of his with whom I had a night of
good sex. As I think back on it, it seems like this was arranged as a reward for giving
these Finder peripherals rides.<br> I remember one time seeing Marion Petty with
this guy from the State Department in an expensive suit talking about Chile.

YOu can imagine my surprise when doing conspiracy theory research and runing across –
"Through a glass very darkly" in US News and world Report. They had just bought the
warehouse when I lived there . There was an old Asian man who was growing bean
sprouts in trash cans. I guess they had moved on to 'higher games' by the 80's. I didn't see
any of this when I was there. That a 'thumb' named Toby or another named 'Diane' could
be involved in SRA fits with the impression ('vibes') I got from them. The Finders would
not be true believers in Satan but as we know, children find it easy to believe in the
devil. The fellows apprehended with the children talk like Finders would talk. The time
period fits with the avalanche of reports of child abuse at day care in the 80's – especially
in the military. Is it just a coincidence that the prosecuter who didn't find there was
enough evidence to prosecute at the West Point incident was named Guiliani?

[Edited by admin to fix formatting]
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:13 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


Postby jaemspayntelosnet » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:41 pm

If KKnauth is the mother of one of the disheveled and dirty children found
with 2 guys in Florida then there is a big disconnect between what she is
writing and how she takes care of her child. Now John Judge (he lives in
Washington DC), noted conspriracy theorist says he believes the Finders to
be harmless communards and that the investigations were motivated by
police types hostile to alternative lifestyles. He says further the children
were just being transported to parents in NC. I think he has been
flimflammed by the Finders. I find the 2 guys reporting that they were taking
the children to a school for smart children in Mexico as how the Finders
would talk.
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:13 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


Postby jaemspayntelosnet » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:52 pm

If KKnauth is the mother of one of the disheveled and dirty children found
with 2 guys in Florida then there is a big disconnect between what she is
writing and how she takes care of her child. Now John Judge (he lives in
Washington DC), noted conspriracy theorist says he believes the Finders to
be harmless communards and that the investigations were motivated by
police types hostile to alternative lifestyles. He says further the children
were just being transported to parents in NC. I think he has been
flimflammed by the Finders. I find the 2 guys reporting that they were taking
the children to a school for smart children in Mexico as how the Finders
would talk.
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:13 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Finders

Postby Dreams End » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:03 pm

If Judge said that, we need to talk to Judge! WAAAAAY too much weirdness
for that explanation. The custom's agent report alone should convince
Judge of that.
Dreams End

Re: Finders

Postby anotherdrew » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:31 pm

from: Sex, Drugs, the CIA, MIND CONTROL and Your<br>Children By A.B.H. Alexander

The CIA, the FINDERS and a likely avenue to acquirechildren?Since volunteers for such mentally-hazardous duty are practically nonexistent, peoplehave to be deceived as to the true purpose of the experiment in order to gain theircooperation. Failing this, they may be simply abducted off the street, to be used andsometimes discarded.Evidence of the later has filtered in from several sources, notably a 1993 article inU.S. News & World Report which exposed a Washington D.C. group called theFINDERS. The group appears to be a "stuck in the 1960's" outfit offering to help kidswho want to live in the old hippie, communal atmosphere. The article did suggest thattheir might be a more sinister purpose behind the Finders, a purpose which includeschild peddling, Satanism and kiddie porn operations. As of 1996, the Finders are stillheadquartered in Washington D.C. with that same kind of "old hippies just lookingafter the kids" look. (6) Their founder is a 75-year old retired USAF Master Sergeantby the name of Marion David Pettie. The leader acknowledges only having received aninth grade education, claiming that he preferred a more experiential kind ofeducation, and school was interfering with it. The tall, graying cult leader now residesin Culpeper , Virginia , and is sometimes referred to as "the stroller" because of hisfrequent walks through town. The 1987 incident which plagues the Finders involvesthe Tallahassee , Florida , Police Department investigation of two adult males foundtransporting six children aged two to seven years old. The Dodge van, and thecondition in which the children were found, was described by officers [WalterKreitlow and Fredric Haiduk] in their report:"The police had received an anonymous telephone call relative to two well dressedwhite men wearing suits and ties in Myers Park, [Tallahassee], apparently watchingsix dirty and unkempt children in the playground area. A Mr. HOULIHAN andAMMERMAN were near a 1980 blue Dodge van bearing the Virginia license numberXHW-557, the inside of which was later described as foul-smelling, filled with maps,books, letters, with a mattress situated to the rear of the van which appeared as if itwere used as a bed. The overall appearance of the van gave the impression that alleight persons were living in it The children were covered with insect bites, were verydirty and most of the children were not wearing underwear and all the children hadnot been bathed in many days." (7)There was keen interest in searching the Finders headquarters by James Bradley, aDetective for the Washington D.C. Police Department. Krietlow also had suspicionsthat the subjects had been involved in supplying children for kiddie porn activitiessouth of the border. The combination of the two was enough to trigger a search of theFinders Washington D.C. headquarters on February 5, 1987 . Special agents for theDepartment of the Treasury, Ramon Martinez and Lynwood Rountree, reported:"During the course of the search warrants, numerous documents were discoveredwhich appeared to be concerned with international trafficking in children, high techtransfer to the United Kingdom and international transfer of currency."Also in the report:"Further inspection of the premises disclosed numerous files relating to activities ofthe organization in different parts of the world. Locations I observed are as follows:London , German, the Bahamas , Japan , Hong Kong , Malaysia , Africa , Costa Ricaand " Europe . There was also a file identified as Palestinian. Other files wereidentified by member name or "project" name. The projects, appearing to be operatedfor commercial purposes under front names for the FINDERS. There was one fileentitled "Pentagon Break-In" and others which referred to members' operating inforeign countries. Not observed by me but related by an MPD (Metropolitan PoliceDepartment) officer, were intelligence files on private families not related to theFinders The process undertaken appears to have been a systematic response to localnewspaper advertisements for baby sitters, tutors, etc. A member of the Finders wouldrespond and gather as much information as possible about the habits, identity,occupation, etc. of the family. The use to which this information was to be put is stillunknown. There was also a large amount of data collected on various child careorganizations.The warehouse contained a large library, two kitchens, a sauna, hot tub and a videoroom. The video room seemed to be set up as an indoctrination center. It alsoappeared that the organization had the capability to produce its own videos. Therewere what appeared to be training areas for children and what appeared to be an altarset up in a residential areaofthe warehouse. Many jars of urine and feces were locatedin this area. (8)"On March 31, 1987 either Martinez or Rountree contacted Washington D.C. DetectiveBradley, and agree that they would review the documents seized at the Finders in thenext couple of days. The following report of this meeting explains why no action wastaken in a case that was replete with moral crimes against children:"On April 2, 1987 , I arrived at MPD at approximately 9:00 AM. Detective Bradleywas not available. I spoke to a third party who was willing to discuss the case with meon a strictly "off the record" basis. I was advised that all the passport data had beenturned over to the State Department for their investigation. The State Department inturn advised MPD that all travel and use of the passports by the holders of thepassports was within the law and no action would be taken. This includes travel toMoscow , North Korea and North Vietnam from the late 1950's to I970's.The individual further advised me of circumstances which indicated that theinvestigation into the activity of the Finders had become a CIA internal matter. TheMPD report has been classified secret and was not available for review. I was advisedthat the FBI had withdrawn from the investigation several weeks prior and that theFBI Foreign Counter intelligence Division had directed MPD not to advise the FBIWashington Field Office of anything that had transpired. No further information willbe available. No further action will be taken." (9)Wendell Minnick, author of Spies and Provocateurs: An Encyclopedia of Espionageand Covert Action, reports he spent two years and over $1,000 in phone billsresearching the Finders. There are two somewhat conflicting reports on the Findersfrom Minnick. In a May, 1996, Washington City Paper, Minnick states "the Finderswould love you to think they're a CIA front, but I would say they're really nothing.You're going to hear a lot of bullshit on the Finders because they lie. These aredysfunctional adults, but they're all working their asses off. They're constantlyworking on some project. If you have a cult, the best way to control people is to keepthem busy, to keep their minds occupied." On the internet, Minnicks Winter 1995,article, The Finders: The CIA and the Cult of Marion David Pettie, says somethingdifferent. The Finders were suspected of abducting children for sale, but never had itproved. Minnick states a 1987 raid resulted in the recovery of one telex ordering "thepurchase of two children from Hong Kong to be arranged through a contact in theChinese embassy there." At the time of the raid, Justice Department agents discovereda Chinese student living with the Finders. Wang Gen-xin was a graduate student inthe anatomy department at Georgetown University . His involvement has not beenclarified.Minnick added, "The one line that crucifies the CIA and the Finders on the same crossstartles the imagination: "CIA made one contact and admitted to owning the Findersorganization as a front for a domestic computer training operation, but that it had gonebad." Was this a leaked bit of info for damage control or connections between theCIA and the Finders? (10] It is known to many that after his retirement from the AirForce in 1956, Pettie's wife. Isabel, joined the CIA as a support secretary serving thestation chief in Frankfurt , Germany , from 1957-61. Pettie's son, George, served inthe CIA's drug activities in Air America during the Vietnam war. While this may notbe conclusive proof of Marion Pettie's direct involvement with the CIA in some kindof child porn, abduction, sacrifice scheme, it draws one much closer to it.It would seem obvious to most that this official intervention betrays a protectivereaction when it comes to Finder activities. When the CIA is involved and there is;international considerations about these allegations, it is difficult not to use the termcover-up.Since 1987, there has been good reason for that uneasy feeling about the Finders.Marion Pettie expanded his organization into dozens of properties in Virginia andFlorida , in addition to their Washington D.C. headquarters. These real estate holdingswere estimated to be worth over 2.2 million dollars.This financial success has put the Finders back in the gentle crosshairs of themainstream press again. Several articles around the country have again performed inmediocre fashion to shed light on this bizarre group. This May, the Washington CityPaper stated the Finders were "mostly middle aged men who are- always in dark suitsand wouldn't be out of place managing a local funeral home." The reporter alsomentions that townspeople say, "the Finders constantly walk the streets, followingpeople home and taking extensive notes and pictures," (11)Another author, Mark Riebling, dabbles momentarily in the Finders pool ofstrangeness in his 1994 book, Wedge: The Secret War Between the FBI and the CIA .Riebling states in his book, "just before Christmas 1993, both agencies wereembarrassed by a Justice Department investigation into whether the CIA hadimproperly used the FBI to cover up its connections to a computer training cult calledFinders, which had been accused but acquitted of child abuse."The flak is increasing for the Finders, as Paul Arico and seven other ex-members arecorning back to file suit for the piece of their pie they gave up to Pettie when theyjoined. As often happens in real cult-like organizations a percentage or all of yourworldly goods are required to be donated to the group, and total obedience to theleader is an absolute must. Even a former member Robert "Tobe" Terrell, who left theFinders in 1991, said the vision of the group had changed, "the nature of the groupshifted from an idealistic Utopian community to more of a military like organizationwhere following orders became more important that the vision". (12)Officially, the Justice Department admits that the Finders case is still "an openinvestigation." The CIA sings a different but expected tune. Spokesman MarkMansfield said "allegations of my agency's involvement with the group were anabsurdity that popped up every couple of years." (13)An October. 1977, NBC-TV broadcast segment entitled, "The Children and the CIA,"brought out another possible covert link between the CIA and children. The CIA storywas that they had simply brought a group of children together for observation at anumber of summer camps for possible later recruitment and to watch their behavior.However, there are disturbing barbs to this story, one in which the counselors werenot told that the camp was being financed by the CIA. The agency once again usedthe front organization called the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology. (14)This was the same group that paid Dr. Cameron for his Canadian mind-blankingexperiments in the 60's. Considering the track record of the CIA, to suspect ulteriormotives in this case would only be common sense.In 1995, the President's Committee on Radiation was hearing complaints inWashington D.C. about hazardous exposure at sites and plants around the country.The testimony mostly focused on the damaging effects of that exposure to radiation.However, on March 15, 1995 , the testimony of New Orleans therapist Valerie Wolfand two of her patients dropped a bombshell in the proceedings that was nevercovered by the mainstream press. Wolf and her patients stated that they had been partof an "extensive CIA brainwashing program as young children (in one case, starting atage seven). Their brainwashing included torture, rape, electroshock, powerful drugs,hypnosis and death threats." (15) According to their testimony, the CIA then inducedamnesia to prevent their recalling anything that really happened.Personal eyewitness accounts exist regarding the use of children and women in suchsecret programs. Any allegations of organized, high level sexual abuse are likely toend up getting you or your character assassinated. This makes any such revelationextremely rare and hence, worth looking into. The next segment is a summary of whatis perhaps the most incredible tale of such an organized program created by Americanand Post WWII German scientists from Operation Paperclip; it is called ProjectMonarch.
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 6:06 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Finders

Postby Cosmic Cowbell » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:20 pm

I found this thread very interesting and just wanted to add what I found using my pal Google. In an article by Daniel Brandt found here:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href=""></a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>...he mentions a couple of names associated with Marion Pettie that are somewhat interesting, Steven Usdin and Jeff Ubois.<br><br>"In August 1984, two twenty-something young men wearing ties knocked on my door and gave their names: Steve Usdin and Jeff Ubois. A tiny newsletter had mentioned the database I was developing, and they were interested. They began pumping me on my activities and associates, and took notes. Their questions reflected a familiarity with obscure leftist personalities and publications that is found only among seasoned activists, and even more curiously, they expressed no politics of their own. Usdin and Ubois had to be "sent men."<br><br>But they wanted to be helpful. My own attempts to interest progressives in my project had been met with quizzical looks, because at the time most leftists were still using typewriters. These two fellows at least knew all about microcomputing. So I rewarded them with the first edition of what today is called NameBase. At the same time I mentioned that I needed the IBM BASIC compiler to get the program transferred from CP/M, and a few weeks later they came by with just what I needed, complete with a photocopied manual in a binder. I probably should have asked them for new computers and an office.<br><br>They said their group went by the name of "Information Bank," and they wanted to approach certain organizations in the Washington DC area and volunteer their technical skills. The following June I visited their warehouse headquarters and met Randolph A. Winn and Robert M. Meyer. I asked questions about who or what was behind it all, but their answers were evasive. From their perspective, I was a potential recruit.<br><br>In July 1985 I got a call from Kris Jacobs, a DC activist who did research on the right-wing. She said that Ubois was caught looking in her office files, and when she confronted him, he claimed to be from the National Journalism Center. Since NJC is a right-wing group that was then doing research on the left, his answer didn't pacify her. Ubois had been dropping my name to talk his way into certain places, so Ms. Jacobs wasn't happy with my excuses either. I alerted two other organizations who were getting assistance from the Information Bank. The next time Ubois came over in early 1986, I casually brought up the name "National Journalism Center" in a different context, and asked him if he had ever heard of it. "Nope." That's when I opened my own file on the Information Bank.<br><br>Louis Wolf helped me check crisscross directories and we visited the recorder of deeds. Several group names were listed under each address, and the two properties we knew about were both in the name of Robert G. Terrell, Jr. While returning from the recorder of deeds office, cross my heart, we spotted Usdin walking with an older man. He didn't see us so we followed them on foot for about two miles like Keystone Kops (they kept stopping at store windows), but eventually lost them. Sometime later Ubois dropped in on Wolf (they never call ahead) and whipped out a business card that read "Hong Kong Business Today." He wanted to know how to get a visa for Vietnam. It was clear by then that most group members were world-class travelers, which included travel to numerous Eastern Bloc countries. It was all a game to them. This was a small group -- perhaps 40 adults -- but they had no visible income to support their far-flung activities.<br><br>In February 1987, two young men from the group were arrested in Tallahassee, Florida because the van they were driving contained six children with dirty faces. The term "child abuse" was trumpeted in all of the media, all over the country, for several days. Customs, the FBI, and DC police raided three group properties and made off with their files and computers. The group (it was a "cult" to the media) was called the "Finders" (years earlier they had been known as the "Seekers"), and it was run by Marion David Pettie, then 67 years old. At least now I knew who the older man was and I had another name for the group. No charges were filed and the children were soon returned to their mothers in the group. After realizing that they had been feeding on a nonstory, the media suddenly dropped everything with no apologies. I called the Washington Post city desk at the height of the hysteria and explained that there was another angle, but when their reporter called back he was only being polite.<br><br>Three years later I obtained a three-page nongovernment memo of undetermined origin that summarizes Pettie's intelligence links. Most of it seems to check out. According to this memo, Pettie began his career with assorted OSS contacts, served as a chauffeur to General Ira Eaker, became a protege of Charles Marsh (an intimate of FDR and LBJ who ran his own private intelligence network), and was trained in counterintelligence in Baltimore and Frankfurt, Germany. His wife worked for the CIA, and Pettie himself was run by Col. Leonard N. Weigner (whose September 1990 Washington Post obituary confirms that his career was spent in air force intelligence and the CIA). Pettie's case officer was Major George Varga, who relayed Weigner's instructions until Varga died in the 1970s. The memo says that on Weigner's advice Pettie resigned from the military and surrounded himself with "kooks" so that he could infiltrate the "beat," human potential, and now the New Age movements."<br><br>Usdin has a recent book published entitled "Engineering Communism : How Two Americans Spied for Stalin and Founded the Soviet Silicon Valley"<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href=""></a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>It is interesting to note who wrote the first (five star) review for the book at Amazon. That's right....J. Ubois.<br><br>J. Ubois has a blog found here:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href=""></a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Anybody ballsy enough to ask him about his work with Marion Pettie?<br><br>~CC <p></p><i></i>
User avatar
Cosmic Cowbell
Posts: 1774
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:20 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

you rock, cc

Postby Dreams End » Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:07 am

Thanks for the link to the blog. I have no problems asking him about it...but I doubt I'll get an answer.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
Dreams End

Ben Franklin and Mr. Ubois

Postby Fat Lady Singing » Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:15 pm

OK, now here's something notable. I noticed in the police report about the Finders, one of the children is identified as a "Ben Franklin." Odd, I think, but not out of the realm of possibility that a history buff would name their kid Ben Franklin.<br><br>Then I go to the site mentioned in another post in this thread as being that of the mysterious Mr. Ubois, and what do you know? The guy seems to have a bit of a Ben Franklin fixation.<br><br>Interesting. Further, someone identified on his site as "Ben" apparently often gives Mr. Ubois computer tips:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href=""></a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Verrry interesting. I haven't fully explored the RI board yet, but I do wonder if anyone ever followed up asking Mr. Ubois about the Finders...<br><br>--FLS <p></p><i></i>
User avatar
Fat Lady Singing
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:15 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Ben Franklin and Mr. Ubois

Postby thoughtographer » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:57 pm

Can you post the link that illustrates Ubois' Ben Franklin fixation?<br><br>Actually, forget that. I wasn't even paying attention.<br><br>That other guy would be Ben Gross.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href=""></a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=>thoughtographer</A> at: 2/8/06 7:59 pm<br></i>
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:12 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:31 pm

I tracked down and backed up the original photostat scans of those reports, since that's important: ... e_finders/
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
Posts: 10177
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby cptmarginal » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:00 pm

I was looking through one of those "conspiracy encyclopedia" type books which are usually total bullshit (this one looked no different), and was very surprised to see the Finders case laid out quite accurately. No attempt to play down the significance of the events, either. They actually asked at least some of the right questions.
Posts: 2385
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: Gordita Beach
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby Cordelia » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:04 pm

I just scanned over the longer thread on The Finders; they're almost as scary and sick as the Franklin perpetrators. The Finders and Franklin players and victims seem like a parallel reality play and I wonder if some of the dots can be connected.

I'm very familiar with where Marion Pettie had his farm in Central Virginia. The area is full of retired intelligence operatives. I doubt it's any coincidence that Sidney Gottlieb had his farm, probably a mile or two, 'as the crow flies', from Pettie's. (Washington is a fairly small town and most of its players are separated by only about one degree.)

Can these two groups be linked? (Maybe this has already been addressed--I haven't yet received a copy of the book I ordered.) The Finders was founded by a individual with a military and intelligence background and originated around Washington D.C. The Franklin players were a cadre of politicians and bankers and centered in America's heartland. Franklin involves 'throwaway' children and The Finder's children come from cult members (from where?). Both involve pedophilia, child pornography and even worse victimization of children. Maybe they aren't linked, but if politicians and bankers are anything, they're cost effective.
"We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content." Dag Hammarskjold ~ 'Waymarks'
User avatar
Posts: 2774
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: USA
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby elfismiles » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:08 pm

EDIT: "Firstly, can this thread's width be fixed? Maybe it is just me but it is like 10 times wider than my monitor." THANKS JEFF. :D

Anywhoo... I think I posted this somewhere on RI but I interviewed Len Bracken who, along with Kenn Thomas, met and interviewed one of the main guys allegedly behind The Finders. We discussed that interview in the interview...

Episode #20 – August 27, 2008 – Podcast of the 20th episode of The Blue Rose Report with guest Len Bracken. Len is the author of such nonfiction works as Shadow Government 911 and State Terror, The Arch Conspirator, and Guy Debord, Revolutionary, as well as fictional works Snitch Jacket, The East is Black, and Freeplay. ... n-bracken/

Bracken is the author of four novels:

* Freeplay reflects Bracken’s first-hand knowledge of the intentional Washington, DC community known as the Finders and of a terrorism incident in the Soviet Union;

The Finders' Keeper: An Interview with Marion Pettie
By Kenn Thomas and Len Bracken,©1998
an article from:
Steamshovel Press #16 1998
POBox 23715
St. Louis, MO 63121

A 1994 reference work- on utopian communities refers to the Finders as "a
rather spontaneous non-organization ... Their overall approach to life is to
make it into a game--a challenging and educational process where the rules
change from week to week, day to day, sometimes even by the hour." Contrast
that with investigator Ted Gunderson's handwritten description, attached to
Treasury Department memoranda on the Finders that Ted Gunderson circulates in
a info-packet about the group: "the Finders are a "CIA front established in
the 1960s. It has TOP CLEARANCE and PROTECTION in its ASSIGNED task of
kidnapping and torture-programming young children throughout the US. Members
are specially trained GOVERNMENT KIDNAPPERS known to be sexual degenerates who
involve children in Satanic sex orgies and bloody rituals as well as murders
of other children and slaughter of animals."

The Finders group found itself in the news in February 1987 when an anonymous
caller phoned police to report two formally dressed men (Michael Houlihan and
Douglas Ammerman) supervising six casually dressed children--according to
police, they were unkempt, disheveled and bruised--at Myers Park in
Tallahassee, Florida. The police charged the men, members of the Finders, with
child abuse, and Detective Jim Bradley of the metropolitan police in
Washington, DC, used the arrest as a pretext to raid one of the Finders'
properties there, Bradley's men seized evidence they said may have been
indicative of an organized ring of pedophilic child kidnappers who made animal
sacrifices to Satan.

A report by Customs Special Agent Ramon J. Martinez claimed that documents
found at the Finders property "revealed detailed instructions for obtaining
children for unspecified purposes. The instructions included the impregnation
of female members of the community known as the Finders, purchasing children,
trading, and kidnapping. One telex specifically ordered the purchase of two
children in Hung Kong to be arranged through a contact in the Chinese embassy
there-" Martinez also reported that the seized Finders evidence included
"numerous photos of children, some nude, at least one of which was a photo of
a child 'on display' and appearing to accent the child's genitals ... a series
of photos of adults and children dressed in white sheets participating in a
"blood ritual." The ritual centered around the execution, disembowelment,
skinning and dismemberment of the goats at the hands of the children, this
included the removal of the testes of a male goat, the discovery of a female
goat's 'womb' and the 'baby goats' inside the womb and the presentation of a
goat's head to one of the children."

Despite this, charges against the men in Tallahassee were dropped, the
children were sent home to their parents unharmed (although the court attached
conditions to the return of two of them), and prosecutions were not pursued in
DC. Police authorities both in DC and Florida complained that the case was
mishandled because the Finders work for the CIA. When Martinez went to meet
with Detective Bradley to review the case, he was directed to a third party
who advised that all the passport data from the seized Finders material check
out as legal According to Martinez, "the individual further advised me of
circumstances which indicated that the investigation into the activity of the
Finders had become a CIA internal matter. The MPD (DC metropolitan police)
report has been classified secret and was not available for review. I was
advised that the FBI had withdrawn from the investigation several weeks prior
and that FBI Foreign Counter Intelligence Division had directed MPD not to
advise the FBI Washington Field office of anything that had transpired."

The Justice Department released Martinez's report and other documents about
the Finders when it opened a new investigation into the group's activities in
1993, in part to determine if the CIA had put the kibosh on the 1987
investigation. One memo claimed that the "CIA made one contact and admitted to
owning the Finders organization as a front for a domestic computer training
operation, but that it had gone bad." The operation, called Future
Enterprises, had hired a Finder, but dismissed him when his connection to the
group was exposed. North Carolina's Democratic representative Charlie Rose and
Florida's Republican representative Tom Lewis supported and publicized that
investigation, as did a former CIA operative named Skip Clemens (reported upon
by Chris Roth in Steamshovel Press #111 see also pp. 295-296 of Popular

The Finders have more-or-less rational explanations for even the most bizarre
behavior attributed to them, especially in the context of a group that exists
to challenge social paradigms. Even the goat sacrifices, known as "Goatgate"
to the group, have been attributed to the Finders just play-acting at being
witches and warlocks, another "game" to dumbfound lookers-on. Many of the
Finders' games serve as parody or put-on. The store windows of its offices
include strange scarecrow artifacts and bumper sticker slogans like "Call
Police" with the letter "C" missing. The words "Promise Keepers" adorn the
marquis of an old theater owned by the Finders, although their meaning-perhaps
something to do with the manic Mtn of the infamous Christian movement Promise
Keepers--is lost to strangers. Not all the weirdest at Finders HQ is Finders
generated, however. Travelers arrive at Finders headquarter in Culpeper,
Virginia, an hour and a half northwest of Washington, DC, via state route 666

The Tallahassee incident and subsequent interest placed the Finders'
reputation at the center of DC's conspiracy culture. That's no small feat in a
town where Operation Monarch sex-slave operations and powerful pedophilic
politicians rule the rumor roost. Steamshovel editor Kenn Thomas and author
Len Bracken (whose 1990 novel Freeplay included fictionalized reference to the
Finders) dropped in unannounced at the Finders facilities. At the time, eight
former members had filed a chancery action against the group to recover money
they had pooled into they currently considered a defunct partnership. More
evidence that Goatgate did cost the Finders money and members. Marion Pettie
was still holding court in Culpeper, however, and granted the -following
impromptu interview. It is presented here as a rare look at the controversies
surrounding the group, verbatim from the perspective of the main personality
at its core.

Q: How far back can you trace the origins of the Finders?

A- I had two apartments back in the 30s and 40s in Washington and just kept
open house. It was supported by the gift economy and I would throw something
in, Some people would say I threw in my good taste. So anyway, it goes bark
that far. Four people here with me now have been with me for over twenty-five
years- In fact, I kept another thing called the Free State back in the hippy
period, back in the mountains here.

Q: The Free State?

A- Yeah, it was called the Free State and it
was known all over the world.

Q: This was where?

A; About twenty miles from here. About a hundred people would usually be there
at any one time. A few other people have done that. A man named Gottlieb, have
you ever heard of him, a musician? He kept open house like that and the
government came out and closed him down. But the local authorities let me keep
it going up there.

Q: This was the 40s?

A: No, we've moved up to the 60s here. Before that, just to give you an idea
of the time period, the sheriff came out and put a gun on me one day and said,
"show me some ID." I showed it to him and he says, "Oh, I know you. You're the
guy what keeps beatniks." So I kept open house to beatniks. We're talking
about the 50s now. Going back to World War 11, 1 kept open house mainly to
intelligence and counterintelligence people in Washington. OSS people passing
through, things like that. So the open house at that time was more or less at
that level. The main ones were beatniks, though, like Dick Dabney. Ever heard
his name?

Q: What's the name?

A; Dick Dabney, He was the number two king of the beatniks in Washington and a

Q: But the group is basically different from the Kerouac/Ginsberg/Burroughs
type crowd?

A; I just keep open house. That's about all I do. It changes as people show
up. Basically, we have about 600 acres up there and a few houses and people
who are here more or less permanently now-They spend part of the time in this
town [Culpepper] and part of the time in DC and part of the time up in the
mountains, and another part traveling all over the world.

Q: But it's still basically the same drift in, drift out kind of thing.

A: Nobody signs anything.

Q: It's an interesting philosophical difference with the culture at large.

A, Personally, I'd say the only thing that has been different is --I'm closest
to being Taoist.

Q: I noticed you have a Lao Tzu quote framed on the wall there.

A; Two ministers were going to come over here and pray for me. I thought you
two might have been them.

Q: [laughter]

A, They said they had a problem with me being a skeptic and me being in this

Q: There's a church next door. That's got to be difficult.

A: How so?

0: I was thinking in terms of having a bohemian crowd around. Also, that's a
real thing to infiltrate in terms of the intelligence agencies.

A; Some investigators back in the 60s tailed me for four years. At first they
said they thought I was a dope dealer big time because, I didn't use it
myself. Then they decided that I was a front for the CIA. They asked I was a
front for the CIA. Of course I wouldn't have told them anyway, but I asked
those people, they said they ran the name through the computer and they said,
"No, we don't own that guy." So then the investigator says, "I've been working
on you for four years and I can't figure out what you're doing. What the hell
are you doing?" So the point is that actually I'm not doing anything, just
enjoying life and working on good ideas all of the time. I considered when I
was 12 years old that my mission in life was to know everything and do

Q: I wonder if in the 1950s you ever encountered the name Wilhelm Reich or any
of the Reichian people?

A: Oh yeah.

Q: Do you have any specific memories about that?

A: At that particular time I also kept open house mainly to the humanist
psychology movement. They would come up to the country and have all these
various gatherings and movements and some of them were Reichians. But I
wouldn't say that I'm an expert on Reich. I think I've read most of his books.
I would say that I had an interest but I don't really have any inside
connection to that personally.

Q: Reich's last years were in Jail, as you know, and he was considered
paranoid, and they burned his books and all that. He was considered paranoid
because he said he was a victim of a Rockefeller conspiracy. But Rockefeller
was the money behind the New Republic which ran an anti-Reich smear campaign
and whose editor, Michael Straight, later confessed to being a Soviet spy.

A: He was a little bit paranoid, they said ... when a plane would go over, hed
say it was one of Rockefeller's planes...

Q: Eisenhower's...

A- It might have been a mixture of both of those.

Q: What do you make then of these stories that connect the Finders up to a
pedophilia ring in the CIA?

A- The pedophiles and all that stuff..

Q: That's all smear?

A; I just kept open house to a lot of the counter-intelligence and
intelligence people over the years. I have been reported to their security
officers probably plenty of times for trying to find out what's going on in
the world. I've tried all of my life to get behind the scenes in the CIA. I
sent my wife in as a spy, to spy on the CIA for me. She was very happy about
it, happy to tell me everything she found out. She was in a key place, you
know with the records, and she could find out things for me. And my son worked
for Air America which was a proprietary of the
CIA. There are some connections, but not to me personally.

Q: But do you have any suspicions ... the Finders sounds like a real open
group that attracts a lot different elements ... disinformation stories could
be planted by certain elements to try to connect it to pedophilia...

A: The reason the CIA wouldn't hire me is that they wouldn't have the control
factor over me. That's one of the things. They may have used me at some time
without me knowing it. They have categories of unwitting agents. Maybe you two
were sent here by them. But I'm pretty open about this kind of stuff, though.
They wouldn't hire me as a contract employee because 1 wouldn't sign the
papers. Anybody that's a contract employee must sign an agreement and then
they pay you out the money. Well, I don't

need the money, but I am trying to find out all about them. Basically, the one
sentence about the CIA is that I have been studying them since before they
were burn, I was studying them back in the 30s. It was ONI

Back then [Office of Naval Intelligence], and then the Coordinator of
Information comes on, and after that it turns. into the OSS and OSS turns into
the CIAU and the CIAU_ turns into the CIA. So I've been studying that all of
my life. But I wasn't personally working for them.

Q: The renown case, of course, took place in Florida.

A! Would you like to hear about it?

Q: I'd like to hear everything you have to say about it, actually.

A; It's very simple, We had the kids and the general idea was that they would
go up to the country up there, twenty miles from here, and they would go to
school, a self-governing school. Adults would be available to them,
intelligent, well-balanced people. And they would never be alone with it kid
so that no one could accuse them of any pedophiles stuff. At least two would
have to be there. As far as I know, they did all that. Then they were just
taking them on a camping trip to Florida. There were four intellectuals with
them and they just happen to drive into a park and somebody was suspicious
because the two men were well

dressed They had four people with them on the trip and they were all well-
educated, well-balanced people. So I don't think them

was any funny stuff going on.

Q: There were just police suspicions?

A: Well, somebody called up and said, "there's two well-dressed men with some
kids in a van over there," So the police come and then they take them down and
by their standards these well-dressed men weren't answering the questions
properly- So then they called Washington and somebody in the Washington police
says, "Yeah, we know those people. They're Finders and we're just about to
find out what they're up to up here and we'll use this as an excuse to go in
there and rig them."

Q: So you were still under surveillance by them.

A: Surveillance? I have been personally, I know, for forty years because in
other countries and so forth, counter-intelligence, come out and want to know
what !'in doing ... if you go around acting mysterious and just find out
what's going on, naturally, people come to find out what it is.

Q: So then it snowballs. First there are unfounded suspicions by these people
and the police. The local police connect to here in Washington and they say,
"oh yeah, we know about the Finders" :and that plays into their paranoia.

A, Then it goes back down to here.- Like 1 said, in the 60s I was under
surveillance for four years, from '64 to '68, and they get all their files out
and everybody starts comparing them. Basically, they come up with idea that
"we don't know what with the, idea they're doing. We don't know who they're
connected with," What were those people called in Holland?

Q- The Provos?

A: Yeah. We are more or less like Provos or Situationists or something like.
Actually, we're not connected with anybody, other than trying to know what's
going on the world and improve the world a little bit.

Q: So you haven't heard anything more about that? A guy named Skip Clemons
took all this and turned it into, "this is a Satanic cult." Apparently his
daughter actually successfully prosecuted somebody for satanic ritual abuse at
a Montessori school. Have you heard of this?

A; Oh yeah. Maybe this is something big.

Q: There's also a computer trainingcenter that was actually training CIA guys
how to operate, right?

A. There's some partial truth to it. We go out and do emergency services and
get employment for a lot of people. So one of them was in there working, where
you're talking about, but we didn't have any connection other than one man
going down there. And the man didn't know it but he was so-called "hiring a
Finder". Tile company was actually doing training for the CIA- We had no
particular connection to that man other than what anybody else would call a
temp worker. But it looks like on the surface that it all ties together- A lot
of these things do happen, but we're not connected anymore than any of the
individuals in the Provo of the Situationists were. Maybe there are some
people who have been around here have been doing some intelligence work. I
don't know about it. Mainly, there's no connection and it's just like I'm
telling you- Individuals, I don't know. People show up. They may be sent here
by the CIA, the FBI, the state police or anybody.

Q: Having it such a loose association furthers that. It's not like you join
the Finders and get a membership card.

A; That's right.

Q: It's a scene. Drop in, drop out.

A: There's no such thing as the Finders. It's just a group term for people who
like to hang around me. That could be anybodyThere's nothing in writing.
There's not even a group,

Q: I notice you're reading Arthur Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe. Is that a
particular interest of yours? Did you know Koestler?

A- I didn't know him, but I really like his books, his style of writing.

Q: Did you know Tim Leary?

A, Yeah.

Q: Was he in and out of the Finders scene?

A; At one time, when he was up in New York, he would send people down here and
sombody[sic] got tired of something down here, they would go up there. It was
a pretty close connection. He gave me LSD but I never took it. I kept it in
the ice box in case I wanted to take it. I figured it must be pretty good if
it came from him.

Q: Did he ever ask you about it afterward?

A: No. Actually, one of the people connected with Leary accidentally burned
the house down. He was; putting in a sauna and he was so efficient he burned
the house down and burned the LSD up- I never did take it, But I had a
particularly close connection to him at that time, were talking about the 60s
again, by me running a place down here and him running one up there and people
going back and forth all of the time.



Readers will rind the most interesting material that circulates

about the Finders below. It comes from an memo entitled "Investigative Leads"
with the attribution that It was "produced sometime during the
1980s/authorship unknown."

Pettie met Joseph Chiang, a chinese agent operating under Journalistic cover,
in 1939 and remained in close contact with him throughout the war. Around this
time Pettie also made Connections with the OSS, through George Varga, Earl D.
Brodie and Nick Von Neuman (John Von Neumann's brother) -- all lowlevel OSS
offciers. Sometime near the end of the war, Chiang introduced Pettie to
Charles E. marsh, at the National Press Club. Marsh, who ran the best private
intelligence network of his era and was an intimate of FDR, Henry Wallace and
later Lyndon Johnson, became, Pettie's mentor and role model, shapiong[sic]
his career. (Marsh's mentor and role model was Colonel Edward M. House, who
was a personal advisor to President Wilson, circa 1919, often mentioned in
connection to the Council on Foreign relations). Marsh died in December 1964.
His last known address was Austin, Texas.

In the 1950s and 60s Marsh provided funds for Pettie to purchase hundreds of
acres of farmland in Madison and Rappahannock Counties, near his estate in
Culpeper County. Later Petty arranged for William Yandell Elliott (1896- ) of
Harvard University to purchase a property adjacent to him, in" Madison County.
Elliott was a government professor at Harvard University who was on the
National Security Council's planning board and a trustee of Radio Liberty
(sponsored by the CIA). As of 1984 Elliott was a board member of Accuracy in
media. Wrote numerous books.

In 1946 Pettie, acting as chauffeur to General Ira Eaker, Marsh arranged for
him to be trained in counterintelligence in Baltimore, Maryland. Around this
time Pettie established close ties to two guards of atom bomb secrets, Captain
Michael Altier (?) and Major Harry Wolanin, both retired. In 1954 Pettie
recruited Eric Heiberg who lost his NSA clearance at about this time. Heiberg
was redeployed as a private investigator and subsequently as a talent spotter
at Georgetown University (now retired). Pettie received intelligence training
at Georgetown University in 1956 and was sent to USAF intelligence training
school in Frankfurt, Germany in 1956-1957. Through Marsh, Pettie got his wife
a job with the CIA from 1957 to early 1961, working in Washington as secretary
and in Germany for the Chief of Station, Frankfurt- Colonel Leonard Weigner,
USAF (deceased 1990) trained Pettie and advised Pettie retire from active
military service and surround himself with kooks, recruiting agents from youth
hostels and universities. Major George Varga became Pettie's case officer,
relaying Weigner's instructions until Varga died in the 1970s,

Under Varga's instructions, Pettie recruited a network of agents in Europe,
including Dr. Keith Arnold (recruited in Paris in 1958) who he accompanied to
Moscow in 1959 or 1960. Arnold, currently based in Hong Kong with the Roche
Foundation, has made over 40 trips to mainland China and has stayed in contact
with Pettie. In the 1960s Pettie established connections with the 'beat'
movement. Norman Mailer and Dick Dabney (died in November 1981) frequented his
Virginia farm. Dabney's widow Dana has extensive files on Pettie. Peter
Gillingham (intermediate Technology. Palo Alto, CA) and Christopher Sonne
(currently Goldman saches, NY) met Pettie in Moscow in 1961. In the early 60s
Pettie allowed Ralph Borsodi and Mildred Loomis to use his Virginia property
for the School of Living, a 'decentralist' one-world government front
organization. Around 1964 Pettie recruited Bosco Nedelcovic and deployed him
to penetrate the Institute for Policy Studies (he is currently an interpreter
at the war College in Washington). In 1967 or 1968 Pettie established a
'futurist, network, assisting Edward S. Cornish in founding the World Future
Society and working through Roy Mason and John Naisbitt. At this time Pettie
also penetrated the hippy drug culture through retired naval intelligence
officers Wait Schneider (Timothy Leary and Billy Hitchcock's private pilot)
and Willard Poulsen (cut out bewtween[sic] Pettie activities and those of
Leary at millbrook), In 1971 Pettie infiltrated the 'human potential'
movement, setting up Ken Kesey (Living Love) as a prominent guru and working
through Dr. Stephen Beltz (related to Judith Beltz, a behavior modification
specialist more recently deployed to the Institute of Cultural Affairs and the
Meta Network cult.

Christopher Bird, former CIA officer who served in Japan and a psych warfare
specialist in the Army, and author of New Age and occult books has also been
associated with Pettie. Bird wrote The Secret Life of Plants with Peter
Tompkins, New York: Avon, 1974, Tompkins wrote on new age subjects like the
pyramids, and once served in the OSS (now anti-CIA).

Pettie's activities took a different turn in 1979 when he recruited John J.
Cox. founder of general Scientific (a computer firm specializing in classified
defense, contracts). Cox trained several of Pettie's Finders in computer
programming and communications technologies and took two or more Of them to
Costa Rica and Panama in 1980-81. Cox worked through Miguel Barzuna, a
prominent Costa Rican money launderer, the Vienna, Virginia-based Institute
for International Development and Cuban exile Emilio Rivera in Costa Rica and
Panama. Through Cox, Pettie and the Finders linked up with several Washington
area computer-oriented groups, including Community Computers, a front
organziation[sic] for The Community, a cult run by Michael Rios (aka Michael
Versacc). (Pettie's son, David Pettie, is a member of the Community, Pettie's
other son, George, may be the one who was in Air America) Cox also recruited
Theordore[sic] G. reiss (wife; Ann), 4 reston-based computer programmer and
highly active member of Werner Erhard Seminars (EST). Cox also recruited Susan
Gabriel and Judith Beltz as couriers. Pettie and Cox have simulated a failing
out and pretend to be enemies...

Pps 2-10

from:STEAMSHOVEL PRESS, POB 23715, St. Louis, MO 63121 ... 00344.html
Last edited by elfismiles on Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Posts: 8256
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:46 pm
Blog: View Blog (4)

Postby Jeff » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:28 pm

[Margins fixed]
User avatar
Site Admin
Posts: 11133
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 8:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Finders

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:25 pm

Got a "Sources" thread going on The Finders over in the Data Dump forum -- I have to admit, re-researching the case from scratch has yielded a wealth of new details and connections.
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
Posts: 10177
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)


Return to The Franklin Scandal

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests