The Tobin Tax: painless step towards justice

by **AnnaLivia** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:05 pm

I was tempted to title this thread “Watch this or I’ll kill you”…because (humor sometimes works and) everyone needs to see this. Well, everyone but Yale grads, Marxists, and Communists, who I understand find common ground in rejecting/condemning the use of this extremely good-sense tool. The rest of you will “get it”. <a href="http://www.waronwant.org/?lid=3546">www.waronwant.org/?lid=3546</a> it says it’s longer, but really only a bit over 12 minutes. Exxxxcellent video on the updated version of the Tobin tax. (Scroll down to “download Tobin video”) (the advice to right click didn’t work for me, but a left click brought it right up.) Almost 2 trillion dollars turns over each day in the world’s foreign exchange markets. More money in a week in financial transactions, than the value of all goods and services the world trades in a year. A tax on those financial transactions of a fraction of one percent (which will both generate revenue to funnel to the most underpaid and simultaneously stabilize markets…helping, rather than hurting them), is one of the tools suggested to be used by the global happiness plan that I so rigorously support and promote…in the quest to achieve safety, peace, and happiness through economic justice.

by **Gouda** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:22 pm

not that this is important or anything, but I bump you back, up, for the hell of it... as person from the center-anarchist wing of the Left-Right coalition, I would tend to a) question the morality and necessity of a market that spins trillions per day in the troposphere high above the billions per day languishing in poverty, in the mud b) question whether a tax on such an atrocious market wouldn't sort of legitimise it c) doubt that anything "painless" is a real step toward justice d) wonder if i need to read and think more about it. those were my gut feelings after glancing through the material admittedly too quickly.

by **DrDebugDU** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:30 pm

.. printing debt free money kinda what is written in the US Constitution. So get rid off the Federal Reserve and all the other 'central' banks and just print money instead of borrowing the money from the banks and then paying interest for something which the government could have made for free... Sadly the presidents who have tried this tended to end up dead... The reintroduction of either a full fiat currency or a silver backed currency will help as well. Gold backed will put you back in the grubby hands of the banks, so that won't work either... Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=drdebugdu>DrDebugDU</A> at: 9/18/05 10:32 am

by **AnnaLivia** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:57 pm

Thanks, Gouda. I see it this way: Reality sets the terms: that market exists whether legitimate or only legal. It ain’t going away tomorrow. I think we can “Tobin” tax the market right now in order to start the momentum in the right direction. (people…workers…are starving everyday!!) restraining/re-adjusting/re-prioritizing/re-imagining the good old democracy and capitalism that working joe knows and loves, is much more do-able than schooling and persuading him in -isms and -ologies. I am sick of good intentions that never move beyond that. (did I mention that people are starving as I write?) Tobin is certainly not the only tool we need to use. The Dr. has highlighted another great tool available to us. Restricting inheritance DEFINITELY goes in the mix. Henry George’s land-value tax is brilliant justice. Maximum wage policy. Simultaneous adoption campaigns. Those are some tools I am aware of. There are undoubtedly more. Why…since I am such a vocal proponent of the goodness and worth and dignity of the wage-earner (but do not excuse him from personal responsibility as I think that is to be condescending to him and insult him)…and a ceaseless proponent of economic justice as the mother of all answers…do I still stick to democracy and capitalism? Because for the life of me I don’t get the thinking behind pure socialism or communism. Those parties are composed of people with the same goal as me…justice and good quality of life for every breather on this planet. But their solution is to take everything from private hands and give it over to the state??? This is important: The question is NOT “what is the state”………the question is “WHO is the state?!!” That seems inescapable to me. As for anarchy, I know it does not mean “no control”, but rather, “us under our own control”. I really don’t see how anarchy is not just another name for true democracy. As I understand it, anarchists believe that everyone who is affected by decisions taken (which is everyone) should have input in the decisions. An elected rep cannot vote his own “understanding” of his “constituents” wishes, but instead is only a messenger to carry the wishes of smaller groups forward. So when consensus is not reached at larger bodies, it’s back to the local groups for more decision making. How far off track am I here, Gouda? But mention the word anarchy and just watch the reaction you get from working joe, right? I certainly hope we DO return to more local control, myself…however we get there. My basic belief is this: there must be struck a balance between the extremes in the schools of thought about…well, now that I think of it…most everything. Big Brother is madness. So is drowning government in the bathtub. Government HAS legitimate functions (my gripe with libertarians; they just don’t GET this). I firmly believe that anything that can be done at the personal level, should be. Why should the city have to come remove the old tires from your yard so that mosquitos don’t hatch there? Get with it, buster. But we can’t each build and maintain our own railroad track or streetlights. Anything that can be done on the local level, should be. But each city alone will find it hard to build a highway or traintrack across the region. Anything that can be done at the state level, should be. But can you say New Orleans in a hurricane? Woops. Time for a federal level effort. (obviously not the kind of effort we have just witnessed, but you already know that even the prom committee could have coordinated that thing better since the prom committe doesn't give a shit about who gets to say "i'm in control and won't cooperate until you say uncle".) And then there’s the international level. The problem here is again about balance. Should countries retreat into isolationism and nationalism in the fear of one-world government. Oh fuck no. I wish someone could show me how it’s just so impossible for SOVEREIGN NATIONS to keep their sovereignty, and yet cooperate on an international level for the good of all. These are only systems that people come up with. We can create any system we are united in wanting. We are six billion. They (billionaires and trillionaires) are a few hundred families. Geez those look like good odds to me. so the secret is in everyone learning. Which is why I go on and on this way, har har guffaw. So for me, the obvious answer is something resembling what I guess most would call a social-democratic vision for government and a well-regulated capitalism based on economics that stops simply ignoring the things ours chooses to ignore. I often say the healthiest attitude Americans (and others) can adopt towards government is the line “Democracy is the worst form of government…except for all the others”. The attitude should be that government, and capitalism, too, are necessary evils, good workhorses if worked right, but coming with a need to harness them securely. Some people are currently thinking so crookedly that they think democracy is about majority rule…when in reality, democracy is about checks and balances that prevent a tyranny of the majority. And, I think humankind needs to nourish its own soul. To stroke its inherent noble element. To believe in itself. Or they may never discover what could have been. I accuse centuries of priestcrafting (of all stripes) of divorcing our selves from sane self-interest and replacing it with altruism (which fails much too frequently). We’ve been beaten up with “being sinners” who require forgiveness (doled out by intermediary priestcrafters), and taught not to love ourselves. Told to love others more. We easily look someone else in the eye and mean it when we say “I love you”, but go stare in those eyes in the mirror and sincerely and genuinely tell that person how much you love, respect, admire, love, accept, love, adore them. I’m betting you’ll get a real weird feeling, feel silly, feel somehow embarrassed to say these things to yourself in all genuineness. Mission accomplished? We mustn’t love ourselves as much or as easily as we love others? Is this why we don’t seem to prioritize our safety, survival, happiness? We go to bed each night on a planet wired to blow at a keyturn…and knowing full well that a nuclear accident is statistically inevitable. We aren’t to take best care of ourselves, but we aren’t taking care of others very well, now, are we? Maybe the tobin tax will help people fall in love with the idea of not allowing wealthpower giants, if they could see the benefit of just even beginning to level the troughs and crests we are getting so seasick from? I called the tax painless because it doesn’t threaten market collapses (it really can stabilize currencies and prevent speculators from instantly plucking everyone’s pocket, whilst also redistributing billions to the most underpaid and deprived), so it really buys time, without murdering jobs, while already beginning the move toward economic justice. It sure looks like a win-win to me. do-able, and do-able now. The “thirld world” currently has a 9/11 (in numbers of deaths) every four hours of every day. Will we do something about that now? I predict cellphones will dance before anyone sells the world…especially the denizens of the world’s “superpower”…on socialism, communism, or anarchy. Of course, it’s just my opinion. But that clock ticks louder everyday, and we still don’t seem to realize that. the Tobin tax idea is a tool available right now. it's already in place in some places, afterall. thanx for listening to the ramble. Anna

by **grateful** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:07 pm

im all for the tobin tax - both the fraction of 1% permanent tax and the, like, 50% tax to prevent speculators crashing a nation's currency to 'make a killing' - [real people dying] but...some comments about the tobin tax video can our friends commit propaganda against us, unbeknownst to us and them? yes, they can - of all the people working on a video, few of them are atuned to the realities behind the tobin tax, and fewer are atuned to all the realities humans are hiding from and that are hidden from them by 'special interests' in the video, the poor are shown milling about, drinking bottled beer, dressed in nonrags - the truth is that the poor are working their asses off, from before dawn to after midnight - wouldnt you, if you were starving? - the video producers were probably influenced by lifetime and lifestyle habits of politically being forced to present nice pictures for their comfortable audiences - and by the fact that it was easier to get shots of poor people standing around than working - why was a shot included of someone drinking beer? - to say to oneself, well, the camera never lies, it happened, is silly thinking - the impression given was false - the viewer does not read the image as 'something that happened' - heshe reads the image as typical of poverty the truth is, the poor are superunderpowered, and therefore shoved around willynilly by those even slightly better off, certainly shoved around by those bandits who steal the govt from the genuine caring leaders we are told that one in five people are on 'less than 50p a day' - translate: one billion people are on between 5p an hour and 0.005p an hour we are not reminded that superpoverty equals superdesperation equals superviolence, superhatred, super-crime, superdesperate acts - ie, that it is in our interests not to be sitting on a super-volcano of poverty - the general mind believes vaguely that poverty is some inert grey sort of entity that has no motion, no activity - ie, presents no danger - why are there palestinian terrorists and no, say, new zealand terrorists? why are we not reminded that the world super-violence is caused by the world super-inequity, the overpaid causing violence by forcing to be done what most people dont want, the underpaid causing violence by trying to get a fair share, a fraction of a fair share, or enough to survive on? we know that there is a connection between inequity and violence, from how we would feel if we were on .005p an hour - or do we think the poor are different, different from people? even the term 'the poor' is spreading an untruth - as tho they were a species, so that one expects them to be poor - oh yes, the poor, i know them, the ones who have little money - as tho they werent people, in a situation of being robbed of just about everything - people with as many brains, as much willpower, as much hardworkingness, as rich people; who have been robbed by a system that people are, so far, too dimwitted to want to control being told that a war on poverty would reap tangible dividends to the people in 'comfortable' societies would activate those many who are not moved by compassion - this would be good for the tobin tax - this opportunity was fluffed if our friends do not have full awareness, they will communicate this unawareness - commit yourself to attaining full awareness - to fighting denial within yourself - to growing up and taking responsibility to know the realities - happiness grows only in the soil of reality - therefore pursue a real picture of the situation as hard as you pursue happiness the video was as wallpaper as tv wallpaper gets wakey-wakey

by **wintler** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:39 pm

As far as i know or can tell the Tobin tax is a great, even an essential idea, for all the reasons already covered here. Heart warming to know so many see it so also. Think grateful has a point, just as G.Lakoff's 'Don't think of an elephant' has a point. We (speaking to other mid.class anglo males) are usually raised blind to the stories of 'others' (women, racial minorities, 'the poor'), but its their very perspectives that are needed to dissolve the spell of apathy and hopelessness that binds us. Perpetuating cheap and easy conceptions of others perpetuates our enslavement, as seeing 'them' as unreachable/un-ally-able/hostile makes us huddle closer to our weakly reassuring tv's, s.u.v's and quacking suits. "The oppressor never knows the language of the oppressed" wrote Ben Okri in 'A way of being free'. Others of course have said similar before, but i love Okri's phrasing: its inversion provides easy instruction on how to protect against being an oppressor - learn the language of those you might oppress. /sermon

by **AnnaLivia** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:27 pm

Grateful, you know where I agree with you, but I do not thank you for the statement about tv wallpaper. I hope it has not discouraged others from watching the video. I didn’t put up this video because it nailed down every aspect of what is incorrect in our society and our thinking. I put it up to quickly inform people about what the Tobin tax is (instead of making them read the volumes I have), and how it works. Does the video leave out part of the big picture? Yes. How long would it have to be to explain the whole enchilada about economic injustice? And who would watch it then? I see far more benefit than harm from this video. People need to know about the tobin tax idea. The tobin tax buys us time to re-educate ourselves by beginning to reduce the inequity. Rome wasn’t built in a day. I agree it’s a case of two steps forward and one step back. But that step forward is a step in the right direction. Real people who otherwise wouldn’t, will eat because of that step.

by **grateful** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:50 pm

- im afraid it didnt occur to me - dumb of me? - i was imagining them watching it with protection against its limitations - and as an example of how our friends can fail us, so we are on the lookout for that - maybe i went too far saying it was wallpaper - wallpaperish - lots of shots of stockmarket numbers, stockmarket dealers, yawn - i guess i was disappointed that the 10 minutes was not used to tell more - that so desperately needs to be said the tobin tax will not be enough to stop extinction - we will have to wake up a lot more than going only as far as the tobin tax - the tobin tax isnt going to slow the tyrants down from destroying the planet by fomenting wars, and doing things the people dont want - it will pour water on the fires of desperation and terrorism not too much point in more people eating when extinction is still coming soon

by **Gouda** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:31 pm

AL, didn’t mind your ramble one bit. I also did not intend my somewhat facetious “center-anarchist wing of the Left-Right coalition” labeling to actually orient me vis-à-vis the T.Tax issue – I just kind of threw that out as I am always having fun trying to pin myself down, while at the same time playing off your giving Marxists/Socialists (not to be found in the company of Center-Anarchists) “the business”. I think you are correct in your understanding of anarchists in general, though they are as complex and bickering a lot as any of us. There are even those anarchists who embrace the free market and private property. This discussion forum is a form of anarchism. Anyway, I take your points on striking a realistic balance and doing something immediately, as a 1st step, while working simultaneously on other, multiple fronts. However I still do not trust these Band-aid / Live 8 type solutions which if anything, give the ultra-wealthy and their engineers an excuse to congratulate themselves and relieve themselves of real responsibility as they ostensibly ‘help’ the poor. While the wheels of the system keep on rollin’ on. What has the trend been since the 80’s Live Aid relief and the resultant increased global awareness of African poverty? Things have got worse. They co-opted radicals and progressives. Will the revenues from such a tax really help the poor? Who will administer the proceeds and how? When I see the same old hollow neoliberal buzzwords bandied about (“development”, “growth”, and “stability”) alarms go off and I fear for the poor at the brunt end of these kind misnomers. "Development" means laying the ground for multinational corporations to feed on apartheid. (Economic) “growth” is impossible to sustain, and nihilistic on a finite planet. Neoliberal capitalism is racist and failed. Anything sustaining that is not really a step in the right direction. The UN Millennium goals are worthy, if weak – they need to be strengthened. More radical solutions are in order, but the conundrum is always how to get the mainstream to accept radical solutions. Well, I’d have to ask in turn: when have our radical elite wardens ever cared about what the majority of us want? They’ve imposed their radical solutions on us, and we even think that we like it. They have crafted a “mainstream” consensus against the mainstream’s own interests. That goes for communist and socialist regimes as well. Perhaps another kind of radical few with integrity, genius and heart can reach a critical mass and turn the tables. The mainstream does not yet know they will need to adopt counter-radical, radical solutions. There are a lot of things for 6 million of us to do. Divestment, boycotts, peaceful direct action, hunger strikes, theatre, art, dance, deconsumption, alternative currencies, authentic journalism, education, education, and education are all but another start. We also each of us must live by example. Corporations and the militaristic shills in their pockets hate all that stuff. I like what they hate. Pinpricking these obscene marketeers does not strike me as effective in these desperate times, under crunch. They will pretend to cry foul at such a tax, and then manuever to take advantage. Once again. Of course, I am aware of the potential for mutual annihilation between two radical minorities vying for persuasion. Maybe that can’t end up well. Thus there is always a role for artful diplomacy, incremental progress and crafty middle ground. The Tobin Tax is an idea - but I would put it in proper context and certainly not rely on it.

by **AnnaLivia** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:09 pm

Quote Gouda: “What has the trend been since the 80’s Live Aid relief and the resultant increased global awareness of African poverty? Things have got worse.” Darlin’, you have just got to read this (if you haven’t): Food for African Thought by Loretta Napoleoni <a href="http://www.progress.org/2005/napo06.htm">www.progress.org/2005/napo06.htm</a> More of that “unlearning what isn’t true”. Pass that one around, ok? And, yes…HOW proceeds from a tobin tax get distributed is everything. The frickin’ prom committee has plenty of “spending experience” and knows that the more you put directly into the hands of those at the bottom, the more refreshed is a whole economy. My suggestion, briefly, would be give cash (what an outrageous idea!) to the most super-underpaid as a stop-gap measure to stem the worst ills (starvation), and invest the other part to build infrastructure they need and give fairwage jobs. Give ‘em a fish AND teach ‘em to fish! how much money is a few hundred bucks if you're living on a dollar a day...or less?! And I think you’ve mentioned a real mother of problems to solve eventually, the “eternal growth” thang. I hope you’ll forgive me if I don’t go there just now. Don’t have the time yet/now, is really why. Got some big stuff coming up on my personal journey (good stuff, no sympathy needed, just time-consuming, and I gotta get to some chores real soon). But yeah, it doesn’t escape me that ever-larger growth in a closed system is impossible. Will re-iterate my position that agrees with yours and basically everbody's...that tobin tax alone would be foolish hope, but no solution is a one-step undertaking. I really thank you for this discussion, G. cheers!

by **Gouda** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:12 pm

Napoleoni is mostly right, especially about the money bubble occluding the eyes of Bono and other misguided rockers. Take off the shades, man. But I don't agree with her bourgeois middle class revolution idea. I also don't like that she singles out radical muslim charities while ignoring the equally troubling profusion of evangelical orgs proliferating throughout poverty-stricken parts of the world. She singles out al Qaeda, but ignores the intimate, mutually-beneficial relationship between Al Qaeda and US interests which depend on the good counsel of "good governance" people such as the Brookings Institute which she cites. She writes: "The problem of Africa is not economic but political. Good governance not money will solve it." It is political, but not in the way she understands it. "Good governance," is another buzzword concept designed and directed by the World Bank, IMF, Think Tanks, and their NGO minions. It is governance modeled in their own image, dominated by neoliberal ideology and now backed by neoconservative brute force. Talk about one big bed. We know who created these bad boys and we know whose bed they butter (yes, let's keep the word, "bed".) She writes, "What turns a developing country into a developed country is not how much foreign aid it attracts, but how money is spent, in other words how the political elite utilize foreign aid." Ah, the political elite of a 3rd World country. Don't they all too often take their cues (and their dues) from the international elite? Billions in hard cash went to financing devastating civil wars, true, but Napoleoni overlooks the fact that these wars were encouraged (through training, armament, clandestine provocation) and/or strategically ignored by outside actors: the geopolitical-financial partners (certain "western" nations come to mind) of the institutional bodies which seek to define and regulate good governance, as well as mentor the local elites. She does not seem to take these linkages, these circle jerks into account. A real political solution would start at home. Let’s work to rid ourselves of the political and financial actors in our home countries who have insinuated their control at all levels in the game: at the International Agency level, at the Regulating level, and at the level of Local Governance (in africa, south america etc) where they have installed their own co-opted servants, the local political elites. There's a big buffer of badness between the money and the people. So how do we use the proceeds of a Tobin tax with these realities in mind? More difficult when we realize that the currency market it would tax also funds these civil wars via the aforementioned jerks. Isn't this like whack-a-mole, or akin to shooting yourself in the foot?

by **AnnaLivia** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:36 pm

Gouda, I owe you an apology. I am sorry I made you list the caveats, instead of doing it myself. It’s just now come to me that since I know what I know, I automatically and rather mindlessly ignore (not really ignore but just skip past) the flaws in a piece like this, and without even realizing it, assume others will do the same. That’s dumb. You saw right through the things she did get wrong or left out, but outside this place, I gotta remember who I’m talking to. It would have been better just to pull out the things that help debunk the idea that Bono’s way is doing the good that people think it does, when it doesn’t. I’ll be more careful, and thanks for the lesson. I’m always trying to nail down the best “juicy bits”…the bits that will shake people who aren’t aware that they aren’t aware, out of their slumber. (like bush-nazi connection, pearl harbor truth, etc. the indisputable stuff.) But going about it wrong, yup, is to risk that hole in the foot. I owe ya one. I won’t share it again without pointing out what you just did. I love this place. Two good lessons in one thread. I won’t share the tobin tax again without pointing out what grateful did, either.

by **Gouda** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:46 pm

It the kind of "collaborative positive feedback" loop that does not accelerate global warming. Cheers!

by **mingy** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:23 pm

the answer to the conundrum is education - wordofmouth, friendtofriend education on the realities that are fudged by the economists as well as the politicos and the journalists the only nonviolent way of change is changing people's understanding - in this case, everyone already agrees - people just need clarification , so they are clear about what they already know is necessary and good only the people have been able to subdue the plutocracies - and they have never failed - or we would still be under 1000 past tyrannies the tyrants are positive, the people are unsure - make the people sure, and the plutocrats are gone get the people on track with limitation of fortunes, the jeffersonian american dream not only do we not need superpowerful to govern, we cannot govern with the superpowerful - see katrina there is a limit to the amount an individual can contribute to the social pool of wealth, and therefore there is a limit to correct reward the individual can do no more than 250,000 hours' work per lifetime, and cannot work more than 10% harder than the average per unit of time the amount of wealth created in a hour's work is US$10 [1999, doubling every twelve years at 6% global inflation per year] - ie, about US$14 at present time maximum righteous reward is therefore $14 x 250,000, or around $4 million - therefore the max fortune is $4 million minus a lifetime's spending when there is little overpay, there is little underpay, hence little violence, little danger of extinction when those who can think have thought it out, the sheeple will follow - even herds have bellwethers the govt and bigbusiness are in thrall to the superpowerful, the superpowerful are in thrall to mad mindless greed - the people need to be taught what they already agree with, somewhere inside them - then there is a general will to limit fortunes - as the way for all to be rich - in money, and in safety and happiness - in everything good if no one has more than $3 million, no one has less than $1 million everyone, without exception, benefits - bigtime - from limitation of fortunes proofs, backup data, details galore at www.globalhappiness.org [not an org] - read a little in it everyday till you know - then teach it everyone who learns it teaching it to just one person per month, will mean everyone in the world knowing it in 33 months it can be called democratic capitalism - it can be called a sanity revolution it is a solid road to walk it is organisationless, leaderless - it cannot be attacked by the plutocracy we seriously underestimate the insanity of the plutocracy

The Tobin Tax: painless step towards justice

The Tobin Tax: painless step towards justice

Re: The Tobin Tax: painless step towards justice

It's one way, but the one of the better ways ...

this rambles, but whatever

tobin tax versus tobin tax video

yay, true.

Re: yay, true.

i would hate my comments to put people off the video

Re: this rambles, but whatever

Re: especially africa

Re: especially africa

i heart teachers

Re: i heart teachers

reply gouda - conundrum...the mainstream...radical solutions

Who is online