Shooting at Stockwell

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Shooting at Stockwell

Postby Peachtree Pam » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:30 am

Eyewitness:<br><br>"Man ran into his train 5 yards away, followed by three plainclothes policemen, the man stumbled or was pushed to the floor..one of the policemen held a black handgun (looked like an automatic, not a revolver) in left hand and fired five shots into the man..He is dead, seriously...<br><br>Man had on a heavy coat, which was unusual in warm humid weather in London, may have been something concealed in it, looked to be an Asian, a Pakistani...when entering train looked like a frightened rabbit....<br><br>I cleared out of there in crouched position, saw at least 15 uniformed policemen piling in...I was afraid of bullets flying around..."<br><br>Mark Whitby, eyewitness<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Shooting at Stockwell

Postby hmm » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:34 am

i just saw/heard this and posted it to the london calling thread.<br>This is unheard of in the UK,public executions by men in plainclothes.The BBC people had a hard time explaining it away.<br>They have it on the bbc news site now:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4706787.stm">news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4706787.stm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"Mr Whitby, told BBC News: "I was sitting on the train reading my paper.<br><br>"I heard a load of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down'!<br><br>"I saw an Asian guy run onto the train hotly pursued by three plain-clothes police officers.<br><br>"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him.<br><br>"I saw the gun being fired five times into the guy - he's dead." " <p></p><i></i>
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Stockwell shooting

Postby Peachtree Pam » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:41 am

Hmm,<br><br>I'm wondering if we will ever hear from this witness again?<br><br>Pam <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Stockwell shooting

Postby hmm » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:51 am

sure he is safe <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>his words are already out across a variety of media,people have heard his words,his name is known.<br>For him to die now would draw extra attention to his words,would increase the power of his words.<br>People will forget and forgive the shooting of a brown-skinned-person? <p></p><i></i>
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Logistics

Postby antiaristo » Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:12 am

Logistically this is quite plausible.<br>Stockwell is one stop from the Oval.<br>If you want to change lines (The Oval is on only the Northern Line) the quickest way to do it is to travel South one stop to Stockwell, where there is a very fast transfer to the Victoria Line.<br><br>People will NOT forget and forgive the shooting of a brwn-skinned person. IF they know about it.<br><br>Let's see how the authorities handle this. <p></p><i></i>
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developing story

Postby Sokolova » Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:41 am

I heard one eye witness on BBC News 24 describe something very curious.<br><br>She said the train had been delayed at Stockwell station for some time and she 'knew something could be wrong'. She also said she 'couldn't get off' the train. <br><br>Then the doors opened, the victim ran on and was instantly followed by plain clothes guys with guns. The man was then shot.<br><br>Okay - <br><br> why was this train delayed in the station?<br><br> if she couldn't get off, how did the victim get on?<br><br>Another eye witness claimes he saw plain clothes guys with guns running into Stockwell tube station, but no sign of anyone they were chasing - implying the victim was already inside.<br><br>I am just finding it hard to marry all this testimony into a plausible scenario in which they would be forced to kill this guy on the train. It makes no sense right now, and it looks dangerous and ugly.<br><br>The BBC are desperately trying to make it look as if this was exactly what we should expect, but even they seem rattled.<br><br>It all plays wrong somehow. It feels fake.<br>Ellie<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Stockwell

Postby antiaristo » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:25 am

Sokolova,<br>Welcome to Rigorous Intuition.<br><br>Do you know about the Canary Wharf reports? Maybe it is not a question of "being forced", but the new policy. Remember Gibraltar, Death on the Rock? That was dangerous and ugly too. And reporting on it cost Richard Dunn and Thames Television their broadcast license.<br><br>Suppose the guy got on a train at the Oval going south. They would send agents on the surface to Clapham North and Stockwell. The guy may have been hiding at Stockwell waiting to get on the Victoria Line train. They opened the doors to flush him out, perhaps? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: gibraltar - BBC news: "shoot to kill policy..

Postby hmm » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:56 am

"shoot to kill policy for SUSPECTED terrorists" was just broadcast on bbc tv news as new guidelines for police <p></p><i></i>
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Re: gibraltar - BBC news: "shoot to kill policy..

Postby Sokolova » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:22 am

<br>Yes, I saw it too. It's official - we presently have a shoot to kill policy operating in London, enforced by non-uniformed persons, who are empowered to kill anyone pereceived to be 'refusing to co-operate'.<br><br>Okay, does anyone still not think we are being glided into a plice state here by all this mind-bending crap?<br><br>what do we know so far on thr latest, according to eyewitness testimony?<br><br>1. 'they' - the 'plain clothes guys' seem to have known where the guy was, though the uniformed police, according to one witness, seemed completely bemused.<br><br>2. the plain clothes guys (PCGs) entered the station at a run, but not, apparently actually chasing anyone.<br><br>3. the train had been waiting in the station for some time - at least four minutes and passengers had realised there was some form of delay.<br><br>4. apparently the passengers were being prevented from leaving the train<br><br>5. the victim leaped on to the train, followed by the PCGs, who then wrestled him to the ground and shot him dead.<br><br>Hmmm....<br><br>Why not just send the train out of the station? Much safer that way?<br><br>Why does it seem to have been parked there (unmoving for long enough to cause comment), as if waiting for the little drama to be enacted on it?<br><br><br>Early days I know, but let's not forget these testimonies as they might well vanish over the next few days as the story hardens into something less anomalous and puzzling...<br><br>(and thanks for the welcome guys!)<br><br>Ellie <p></p><i></i>
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Re: gibraltar - BBC news: "shoot to kill policy..

Postby FourthBase » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:02 am

"Shoot to kill" <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>suspected</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> terrorists.<br>That sounds unconstitutional, oh wait...<br><br>Here's another BBC article, with conflicting accounts:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A passenger has told how he saw armed police officers shoot a man dead on a Tube train at Stockwell. <br>Mark Whitby said: "I was sitting on the train... I heard a load of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down'. <br><br>"I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun. <br><br>"He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>five shots</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> into him," he told BBC News 24. <br><br>"As [the suspect] got onto the train I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox. <br><br>"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, [they] couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand. <br><br>"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him. <br><br>Heavy coat <br><br>"<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>He [the suspect] had a baseball cap on and quite a sort of thickish coat - it was a coat you'd wear in winter, sort of like a padded jacket</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. <br><br> I was distraught, totally distraught. It was no less than five yards away from where I was sitting <br><br>Mark Whitby<br>Eyewitness<br><br><br>Send us your accounts <br><br>"<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>He might have had something concealed under there, I don't know</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. But it looked sort of out of place with the sort of weather we've been having, the sort of hot humid weather. <br><br>"He was largely built, he was quite a chubby sort of guy. <br><br>"I didn't see any guns or anything like that - I didn't see him carrying anything. I didn't even see a bag to be quite honest. <br><br>"I got into the ticket hall. I was approached by a policeman and London Underground staff asking me if I needed counselling. <br><br>"I was just basically saying I've just seen a man shot dead. I've seen a man shot dead. I was distraught, totally distraught. It was no less than five yards away from where I was sitting. I actually saw it with my own eyes." <br><br>'Popping sounds' <br><br>Another passenger on the train, Georgia Law, told BBC Radio 5 Live she heard the shots. <br><br> There was a real wave of panic on my train, people were banging on the doors <br><br>Jason Dines<br>Tube passenger <br>"I heard all these popping sounds, it sounded like gunshots, but quite quiet ones. <br><br>"I could hear shouting, 'get down' and people going 'run, run'. I thought there was just someone shooting randomly. <br><br>"So I lay on the floor of the carriage and then I decided to get up and have a look out. <br><br>"<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em> could see someone lying on the floor and police all standing around. <br><br>"But it was all quite panicky so I then ran up the platform and out of the Tube." <br><br>Commuter Anthony Larkin, who was also on the train at Stockwell station, told 5 Live he saw police chasing a man. <br><br>"I saw these police officers in uniform and out of uniform shouting 'get down, get down', and <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>I saw this guy who appeared to have a bomb belt and wires coming out</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> and people were panicking and I heard <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>two shots</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> being fired." <br><br>'People were crying' <br><br>Jason Dines was a passenger on a Victoria line tube train which arrived at Stockwell station as the shooting was taking place. <br><br>"When we pulled into Stockwell there was just a lot of panic on the platform," he told News 24. <br><br>"Everyone who was on the platform was just running from one end of the platform down to the exit as quickly as possible. <br><br>"There was a real wave of panic on my train, people were banging on the doors saying, you know, 'come on, open the doors, let us get off, we want to get off the train'. <br><br>"Because of that panic, you couldn't actually hear what the driver's announcements were, what he was telling us to do which was a bit of a problem. <br><br>"The doors opened, we got onto the platform, then you could hear the PA address system on the platform - the drivers were basically saying get back on the train. <br><br>"There were people very, very shaken, a couple of people crying. It was quite an unsettling experien</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4706913.stm">news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4706913.stm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>So one guy 15 feet away hears five shots, sees a big coat but nothing else - while another guy only hears two shots and sees a bomb belt with wires sticking out. Let's play a game called "Spot the Plant".<br><br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :x --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/sick.gif ALT=":x"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>
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WHERE was he shot

Postby Dreams End » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:18 am

Five shots. If he was suspected of having a bomb on him, well, I'll let the BBC explain it:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If he had been challenged by police and failed to stop they "have not got a lot of alternative", Mr O'Connor told BBC News.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Mr. O'Connor is not a policeman but a witness, a "former flying squad officer." I don't know what that means. Is that just low level in the airforce or is that a position of some authority?<br><br>Anyway, 5 shots to the head, I think, would have been noted by the passengers. I mean, you would think they would add that detail as it would be even more horrifying. 5 shots to the body would have gone right into a potential bomb vest (unless the police somehow knew EXACTLY where on his body the vest was?)<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: WHERE was he shot

Postby FourthBase » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:28 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>5 shots to the body would have gone right into a potential bomb vest<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>EXCELLENT POINT</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <p></p><i></i>
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"...like a cornered rabbit'

Postby rain » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:32 am

since when do cops, five of them, having tackled their quarry to the ground, then proceed to pump five shots into him. what happened to evidencary support, trial by jury...?<br>so mark whitby may be the only witness, or at least the only one with any integrity. today, I think, his life changed forever. but then maybe it did for all of us.<br>I hope you're right antiaristo, that there is a sense of reality bubbling under the surface, and I hope it finds a voice very soon.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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wrong quote

Postby Dreams End » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:39 am

Never post before morning coffee! The quote I meant to pull was this, from the same man:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Officers would be trained to aim for the head as shots to the torso could trigger a hidden explosive device, he added.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This was in a BBC report and was allowed to stand uncorrected, so I assumed it was reflective of actual policy...but maybe just sloppy reporting. However, the logic of it is sound. The ONLY justification for this would be that the man was wearing a bomb vest and was clearly about to detonate. None of the other bombers, of course, were wearing their bombs so this would be new. Anyway, personally I would not, while sitting on top of someone fire into their bomb vest! But I'm pretty sure these five shots were not to the head or we would have known. It's a public execution...and according to Sokolova, the train was delayed...so does this suggest they WANTED an audience?<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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The Sweeney

Postby antiaristo » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:43 am

Dreams End,<br>What you said about Mr O'Connor makes me highly suspicious.<br>The Flying Squad was the 70's name for the rapid reaction police - the heavies that would be called in if an armed robbery were underway, for example. There was a famous TV series called The Sweeney (Sweeney Todd - Flying Squad) which ultimately ended because it was so violent.<br>The chances of having a "citizen witness" on hand with that sort of background is infinitessimally small (ie small). <p></p><i></i>
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