Qutb, don't duck this one (London Bombing)

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Re: And the Ghoul ?

Postby StarmanSkye » Thu May 18, 2006 7:56 pm

"But after a while, it struck me: the suspicion, and the questions, and the pointing out discrepancies, is all good. It's something muckrackers used to do, in a time when media ownership was less centralized (and some, bless them, still do). However, what the purveyors of "alternative analysis" provided was something else than a rational and honest weighing of the evidence (or "evidence", such as it is available through the newsmedia). It struck me that none of them at no point, even on the very day itself, even considered the possibility that the official story, by and large, might be true. Despite the fact that the official story - a suicide attack that was not "made or let happen on purpose" -was by far the simplest and most obvious explanation." <br>****<br><br>In reading this, it suddenly struck me that the biggest flaw in the whole 'official' 7/7 suicide bombing theory, is that there was absolutely NO PURPOSE for the bombers to die. NObody mounts a suicide attack when their death doesn't add one iota to the success of the bombing's intention, ie. to cause great damage and violence on a targeted source, to increase public attention about the linked-consequence of a political policy. The bombers could have simply and unobtrusively left their packages and escaped, to explode several minutes or more later.<br><br>Given the many disclosures of duped, unwitting bomb-carriers in Iraq, the case for a similiar false-flag set-up can't, and shouldn't, by summarily dismissed. The bombings were entirely different than suicide protest-deaths committed by Buddhists in Vietnam who immolated themselves with gasoline fires while being photographed -- whose sacrifice made a profound, lasting impression on most who saw it. The bombers had every reason to survive and live to stage further attacks rather than unnecessarily die for a cause they believed in. This suggests they may not even have suspected what they were really carrying were bombs instead of contraband they supposedly were well-paid courriers for -- OR enlisted to test the tube's security.<br><br>A lotta things just don't add up.<br><br>But Qutb, how can you say Menezes was a 'criminal' because his visa had expired? That's not the active commision of a crime, but an administrative infraction. The term 'criminal' here is entirely unwarranted and inappropriate, even IF his visa was invalid; It's a little more serious if he had a fake stamp, BUT that can't be readily established by anything the Home Office has said, and is contradicted by the fact he recently returned from a visit to Brazil. Funny how everyone overlooks such inconvenient details, eh?<br><br>From a 2005 report:<br>"Anger was fuelled yesterday by the reports that Mr De Menezes was in Britain on an out-of-date student visa. The claims are understood to have originated from government sources. But his family insisted he was legitimately in Britain on a five-year visa; one theory is that, like many Brazilians, he may have be travelling on a Portuguese passport. <br><br>Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, said last night he did not have details of the dead man's immigration status, but he added: 'My understanding is that he was here lawfully.' <br><br>The Home Office refused to comment on his case, but Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said: 'We are disgusted at suggestions that a man's immigration status has any relevance at all to the value of his life.' <br>--unquote--<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050726/ai_n14799148/pg_1">www.findarticles.com/p/ar...99148/pg_1</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>***<br>I simply can't belive the atrocious nonsense the GD press blithely repeated about the circumstances of his death -- including speculation to outright assertion that he 'ran' and vaulted the turnstiles when challenged by police because his visa was expired, and that he was wearing a bulky jacket. Almost as stupid as his being followed, allowed to board a busy bus, then the tube station, finally immobilized while offering no resistance and only THEN shot, repeatedly. This was CLEARLY a totally unwarranted use of force if not outright murder -- illegal use of deadly force. Yet Qutb calls him a 'criminal' while overlooking the criminality that resulted in his death. His visa status, even IF it was actually expired (and there's abundant reason not to trust the official sources who have lied repeatedly already), had NOTHING to do with his being killed. It was racial profiling and police incompetance if not a public execution. Top police officials repeatedly called for appropriate communications systems that would work underground. Investigation revealed negligence in the CT planning in not preparing for or considering an investigation that went 'live' -- this was gross oversight for which no-one that I know of has been held accountable. <br><br>--quote--<br>Now, a cousin of Menezes has come forward to dispute police claims that Menezes wore a bulky jacket and vaulted a subway turnstile. Guardian: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1537613,00.html?gusrc=rss">www.guardian.co.uk/attack...?gusrc=rss</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian shot dead in the head, was not wearing a heavy jacket that might have concealed a bomb, and did not jump the ticket barrier when challenged by armed plainclothes police, his cousin said yesterday. <br>Speaking at a press conference after a meeting with the Metropolitan police, Vivien Figueiredo, 22, said that the first reports of how her 27-year-old cousin had come to be killed in mistake for a suicide bomber on Friday at Stockwell tube station were wrong.<br><br>"He used a travel card [and thus wouldn't have needed to jump the ticket barrier]," she said. "He had no bulky jacket, he was wearing a jeans jacket. But even if he was wearing a bulky jacket that wouldn't be an excuse to kill him." [...]<br><br>"My cousin was an honest and hard working person," said Ms Figueiredo who shared a flat with him in Tulse Hill, south London. "Although we are living in circumstances similar to a war, we should not be exterminating people unjustly."<br><br>Another cousin, Patricia da Silva Armani, 21, said he was in Britain legally to work and study, giving him no reason to fear the police. "An innocent man has been killed as though he was a terrorist," she said. "An incredibly grave error was committed by the British police."<br><br>Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at 10am last Friday after being followed from Tulse Hill. Scotland Yard initially claimed he wore a bulky jacket and jumped the barrier when police identified themselves and ordered him to stop. The same day the Met commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, said the shooting was "directly linked" to the unprecedented anti-terror operation on London's streets.<br><br>The following day Sir Ian apologised when detectives established that the Brazilian electrician, on his way to a job in north-west London, was not connected to attempts to blow up three underground trains and a bus in the capital. [My emphasis]<br><br>Many questions would be easily answered if British authorities would simply release the closed-circuit video of the incident, as Menezes' family has demanded:<br><br>Speaking from a hotel in Kingston, where Jean Charles's relatives are staying, his cousin Alex Pereira, said: "We want to see the CCTV. That may show it clearly. <br>"They have to show it, not just to me, but to show everyone else what they did." [...]<br><br>"They have to answer why they let a guy they suspected of terrorism take a bus, and why they waited for a busy place, a crowded place, before they shot him. They shouldn't hide anything.<br><br>"They have to show everyone, not only me but everyone, what they did."<br><br>He denied speculation that Mr Menezes had fled from police because his visa had expired.<br><br>"He showed me about three months ago the visa and the Home Office letter. He had a five year visa. I think he still had five years more to go.<br><br>"Why would they think he ran because of that if he had five years on his visa."<br><br><br>*****<br>I'm curious why Qutb insists on casting Menezes here as the bad-guy?<br><br>This is the kind of inanity the 'official' press was bandying about after the killing:<br>"The authorities later found out that the Brazilian Wanted to Earn Money to Go Home (AP) had no connections to the attacks and apologized for his death while maintaining their actions were proper."<br><br>Get that -- their actions, for which they apologized for, were 'proper', as in, no need to change or fault.<br><br>What a crock. Killing an innoccent man in cold blood is not 'proper' -- I don't care HOW fouled-up one's law-enforcement and judicial system is.<br><br>THIS bit of trivia strongly suggests all the press reports of Home Office claims that Menezes visa had expired were further bullshit to confound the issue, providing justification for the apparently false-claim Menezes had jumped the ticket turnstile and ran from police:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/9347/79/">www.brazzil.com/content/view/9347/79/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>--quote--<br>Media reports suggesting that Jean had run from the police because he was working in Britain in violation of immigration law have been discounted by both the British and Brazilian governments. <br><br>Relatives in Brazil pointed out that he came home earlier this year for vacation and then returned to Britain in April, which would have been impossible if he lacked a necessary visa.<br>--unquote--<br><br>Which suggests there's another awful crime of obstruction of justice and cover-up and outright officially-sanctioned lies going on here.<br><br>The following comments printed in the same Brazilian paper cited above are MOST to the point and poignant, highlighting the REAL reason Menezes was murdered:<br><br>--quote--<br>"Before launching a war, the leaders of the globalized world should face the fact that everything is globalized, including the terror that they impose on other peoples."<br><br>A reader from Curitiba wrote the paper, "The murder of a Brazilian in London only proves that brutality and stupidity is on the rise the world over. <br><br>"If in London a person is assassinated on his back, one can imagine what the British soldiers are doing in Iraq. Or what they did in the epoch of colonialism. Who are the barbarians? Who really is a terrorist?"<br><br>And from Rio, a reader commented, "The murder of the Brazilian in London is a consequence of the policy of war. In militarizing the world, the US and its British allies have turned it into an unsafe place for everyone. But this doesn't matter to Bush and Blair, who want not peace but power."<br>--unquote--<br><br>Man, I couldn't say it better. What you sow, so shall Ye reap.<br>Starman<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The tickets are immaterial

Postby antiaristo » Thu May 18, 2006 7:57 pm

Thanks, I'll bookmark that.<br>The first one was a Sony music site.<br><br>And on reflection, Bismillah is correct.<br><br>This is much more interesting<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.financialoutrage.org.uk/thameslink_database.htm">www.financialoutrage.org....tabase.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Added on edit<br><br>Starman, it was Sepka, not Qutb <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antiaristo>antiaristo</A> at: 5/18/06 6:07 pm<br></i>
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Re: The tickets are immaterial

Postby StarmanSkye » Thu May 18, 2006 8:14 pm

Byrne: WoW, I'd forgotton all about those reports of delays, shut-stations and high-alert by emergency and police that morning of 7/7 -- But I hadn't even seen many of the reports you posted. Isn't it bizarre (to say the least) that this hasn't been officially acknowledged and addressed?<br><br>There sure IS reason to doubt the 'just a desktop exercise' dismissil of security test that day.<br><br>Thanks for the reminder that things aren't always what they seem not to be.<br>Starman <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The tickets are immaterial

Postby friend catcher » Thu May 18, 2006 8:17 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Also there is a tube depot at Morden. Is someone really going to tell me that a broken down train at Balham at 6.30 am would normally lead to the PROLONGED CLOSURE of all stations between Morden and Stockwell? Rubbish!</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Yes, I lived in Morden until 2002 and can tell you with much feeling that a broken train at Balham will do exactly that. Stockwell is four stops beyond Balham so every train northbound between Morden and Stockwell will stop. This has been my experience since 1989 when I first lived in South London and the Northern Line is notorious for it. I avoided the Northen Line when possible for that reason and preferred the overland route from Wimbledon.<br> Whilst I hate to piss on your fire this way any public transport user in S. London would agree with me. Look at a tube map and I think it will be clear how this would happen.<br><br>With regards to the general nature of the July bombings many of us at Gleneagles that day believed it to be convenient to a point of farce and everything since then has made it seem more of an semi official operation than ever. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The tickets are immaterial

Postby Byrne » Thu May 18, 2006 8:54 pm

Starman,<br><br>A London friend told me on the night of 7/7 that he had expierienced strange delays/empy carriages/loads of police/emergency/special ops boys etc. I researched the web that night & saved such testimonies. <br><br>Friend catcher,<br><br>OK, I don't know the London Tube system well enough & you are probably correct, but what about the large number of police/Special Ops present. That doesn't happen every day & it signifies that <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>SOMETHING</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> out of the ordinary was going on that morning. A terror drill/exercise could be an explanation for such delays but there is no explanation of any of these delays apart from 3 mentions of the word <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>delay</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> in all of the 3 official docs (referenced below) referring to the Northern Line only:<br><br>In the narrative doc :<br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>2. 7 July began unsettled, with heavy showers in places. The early morning rush in London started as normal. There were some delays that morning on the Underground, including – significantly – on the Northern Line.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>The significance that they refer to is because the delay on the Northern Line is used to explain (09:47 in the narrative document) why Mohammed Siddique Khan possibly left the Underground Network to explode his device on a bus (thereby providing the world with the gruesome bus sans roof picture).<br><br><br>The 7/7 day timing <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>was</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> significant, as everyone in the UK who noticed the effect that the events had would testify..........but Oh No, the Official report has this to say:<br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"#35 There is no apparent significance in the choice of 7 July as the date for the attacks and no indication that the G8 conference which was taking place at Gleneagles at the time was a factor."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>For those that may wish to study the official documents, they are available from the following links:<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_05_06_isc_london_attacks_report.pdf" target="top">Intelligence and Security Committee Report into the London Terrorist Attacks on 7 July 2005 [656 KB] </a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_05_06_isc_london_attacks_report_govt.pdf" target="top">Government response [238 KB] </a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_05_06_narrative.pdf" target="top">Official 'Narrative'</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby Sepka » Thu May 18, 2006 11:00 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>How can you possibly say what you said about de Menezes?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Because it's the truth. Am I wrong? Was he in the country legally, all immigration documents in order, permission to hold a job, and no reason to avoid the authorities?<br><br>-Sepka the Space Weasel <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby Dreams End » Fri May 19, 2006 3:36 am

Mr. Poirot will not condescend to step into this argument. I think he is angered that Qutb would challenge him publicly, but he only said he had "more important matters to attend to."<br><br>However, I'd like to suggest that distraction is not a likely motive. Strategy of tension, a la Italy, would be the precedent. The rightwing sponsored many acts of violence in hopes of leading to a crisis of faith in democratic government, an attempt to quell rising leftist sentiment and an excuse for repression. Wonder if it went beyond Italy's borders?<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In March 2001 , General Maletti , commander of the counter-intelligence section of Italy's military intelligence , claimed , at a trial of various Fascists for one of the 1969 bombings , that "The C.I.A., following the directives of it's government, wanted to create an Italian nationalism capable of halting what it saw as a slide to the left and , for this purpose , it may have made use of rightwing terrorism. I believe this is what happened in other countries as well" (Quoted in the Guardian of March 26th 2001)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This quote comes from a summary of the strategy of tension and its relation to a similar bombing. Might as well print the whole thing, since I can't get Poirot to come on and defend himself. Nothing in this, however, not commonly known by most on this board:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>Fascism and the Establishment<br><br> Italy: The stratergy of tension <br><br> "some Fascists in the group of terrorists in question worked for the Carbinieri (a police unit) , that others had contact with the army or the police and that they received valuable and timely information in the progress of investigation into their activities"(1)<br> -From the report of an Italian parliamentary committee of inquiry.<br><br> "The workers struggles of 1968-69, Italy's Hot Autumn, deeply engraved the economic structure of the country and modified the balance of forces. After these struggles, the Left was stronger and power weaker. . . .objectively. The damage provoked by the workers insubordination was very serious indeed"<br><br> "Even before '69 many militant and autonomous struggles developed, in particular PIRELLI in Milan, neither controlled by the Unions at the level of organization nor dominated by them at the level of the content of the demands. Tangible wage increases, plus less work were the two main themes of that period. The behaviour of the proletariat can be summed up in the slogan of the period: BETTER WAGES, SHORTER HOURS.<br><br> Violent strikes broke out in Alfa Romeo and in Fiat. Rioting took place in many towns, the most serious in Reggio Calabria where tens of thousands of people fought against the troops" (2)<br><br>" right-wing political violence most strongly manifestated itself in the late 1960s and early 1970s . This was a period of student and youth agitation , new social movements including women's and gay liberation , widespread social unrest and trade union militancy in Italy . This was accompanied by a massive increase in electoral support for the Communists - peaking at over a third of the vote in the 1976 elections . The neo-Fascist terrorists groups of this period were a backlash against all this left wing activity and also against the emergence of left wing terrorist groups such as the Red Brigades .terrorists of the right .... often planted bombs in public places which killed dozens of innocent bystanders and passers-by . All this was part of a so-called 'strategy of tension' , a campaign designed to lead to a breakdown of law and order and consequent collapse of public confidence in democratically elected government , precipitating a takeover by the army. Indeed in the 1960s and 1970s there were several coup attempts." (3)<br><br>On December the 12th 1969 the bombing began, with one bomb in Milan and three in Rome. The bombs in Rome left eighteen wounded, the bomb in Milan killed seventeen and injured eighty-eight. Police acting on information from S.I.D. ( intelligence agency) arrested two anarchists for the Milan bomb, later murdering one of them , Giuseppe Pinelli , with a fake suicide. Despite mounting evidence that this was a Fascist bomb, the official party line for years afterward was blame the Anarchists. Later the Establishment view changed and the idea that this was a joint operation between Anarchists and Fascists is propounded! Eventually a number of Fascists are tried, convicted and imprisoned but are acquitted, as is the surviving Anarchist. One of the bombers acquitted for "lack of evidence" was Guido Giannette a S.I.D. agent.. When Giannette became a suspect, the secret state sent him out of Italy and continued to pay his wages after the arrest warrant had been issued.<br><br>In twelve years from 1969 to 1980 4,298 terrorist incidents take place of these Fascists were responsible for 68% and most of the deaths, the basic pattern repeated again and again is as described above, the left is blamed, there is a high degree of collusion and those responsible usually get off scot free and with a hell of a lot less international political and media attention than the famous Red Brigades.<br><br>In September 1974 the head of S.I.D.(secret service) Vito Micelli was implicated in an attempted Fascist coup d'etat in 1970 - after a secret report from his own agency reached the Prime Minister's desk. He then nailed his colours to the mast and stood and won as a M.S.I. (Fascist) parliamentary candidate.<br><br>By 1977 S.I.D. was so embroiled in scandal that it was replaced by a 'new' secret service - S.I.S.M.I. . Then came what was at the time the worst single terrorist atrocity in European history. On the 2nd of August 1980 a bomb exploded in the second class waiting room of Bologna railway station. Eighty-five people were killed and over two hundred wounded, Bologna was a Communist Party electoral stronghold and had been targeted previously. Ten years later a number of S.I.S.M.I. officers were on trial for this atrocity, they included a General Secretary, a General and a Colonel. Their convictions were later quashed. As we have seen these were by no means the only incidents of far-right terror and state collusion with it in Italy at that time, for example repeatedly the secret services created false trails of evidence leading away from the perpetrators of rightist violence. One might wonder what motivated it and indeed what motivated the virtually indiscriminate terror itself, the whole story would have remained in the realms of conjecture and could be dismissed as speculation but for chance. During investigations into a banking scandal police searched the home of Licio Gelli. Gelli had fought for Mussolini's reborn Roman Empire in Spain, Yugoslavia and Albania and when Italian Fascism crumbled he joined the Nazi S.S. . After the war Gelli worked on the 'Ratlines' - the Vatican and C.I.A. sponsored escape routes for Nazi fugitives. Later he dealt arms in Latin America and reputedly became the linkman between the C.I.A. and Juan Peron the Argentine dictator. Searching his home, the police came across a list of over six hundred names and evidence linking them to a Freemason group called Propaganda-2 or P-2. Now freemasonry or any other oath-bound secret society is illegal in Catholic Italy, but of course totally unremarkable as this would be but for the membership of P-2. P-2 recruited from the "elite" of Italian society. It included within it's ranks one hundred and ninety five military officers, two serving Ministers, three ex-Ministers, one Party Secretary, sixteen Magistrates, four hundred and twenty two State officials, thirty six M.P.'s as well as Secret Service heads and various bankers and capitalists (see footnote 1). Magistrates investigating the Bologna bombing found that P-2 directed much of the Fascist violence and associated cover-ups and distortion. Gelli was P-2's 'venerable master' (that's leader to us mere mortals) and in 1986 he stood trial for his part in the 1980 Bologna bombing and was acquitted but found guilty of perjury. On the fourth of August 1974 a train bombing near Bologna killed twelve and injured forty-eight. A 1983 trial judgement on this atrocity found :<br><br> "In the opinion of the parties claiming damages, the accused members of 'Ordine Nuovo' (New Order) were inspired, armed and financed to carry out the attack by the Masonic movement, which took advantage of right-wing subversives and terrorists, within the context of the so-called 'strategy of tension' in an attempt to halt the country's gradual drift to the left and set up the basis for a future coup d'etat" (4)<br><br>This was the P-2's plan, by means of terror in the style of agent provocateur promote a law and order agenda and provide a pretext for a clampdown on dissent and worker's struggle, if necessary a coup d'etat would be part of this. However given that P- 2 constituted a 'State within the State', a coup would be the option of last resort and would happen if for instance the Communist party entered a coalition government. Another organisation in the murky shadows of Italy's secret state shared the same ends and means as P-2. It however was official, if covert, it was called 'Gladio' (sword). Gladio was set up in 1958 by S.I.F.O.R. (Italian secret service, later replaced because it was suspected of involvement in a 1964 coup plot) and the C.I.A. . It's 15,000 members were recruited from W.W. 2 veterans groups and had access to 151 secret arms dumps. The purpose of Gladio was, (it was apparently disbanded in 1990, but then it didn't officially exist until then) we are told, to act as a resistance group in the event of a 'Warsaw pact invasion', a 'Soviet takeover'. Why any Russians would want to take over the radiation desert Italy would have become after a nuclear war, which would have been the result of any Warsaw pact invasion of Italy or any other N.A.T.O. sate is beyond me. In fact by the time it would have taken for 'Soviet' tanks to have reached Italy there would have been no more Pentagon or Kremlin to give orders. Secret Gladio documents made public in 1990 tell a different story, they tell of the danger of 'internal subversion' i.e. the working class. According to General Gerardo Serravalle, commander of Gladio during the 1970's, it was concerned with:<br><br> "Internal control, that is our level of readiness to counter street demonstrations, handling nationwide strikes and any internal uprising"<br><br>and Gladio's role was to:<br><br> "Fill the streets, creating a situation of such tension as to require military intervention"(5)<br><br>In other words P-2's 'Strategy of Tension' create chaos as a pretext, a justification for repression.<br><br>Unsurprisingly this was all made public as the result of a lone magistrate's inquiries into the slaying of three police officers by a car bomb in 1972. Dusty, dated secret service records show that the bombers were members of Gladio. They had even used Gladio explosives. One of the bombers, Vincenzo Vinciguerra, has claimed that the group thought responsible 'Ordine Nuovo' was a secret service invention. Gladio was part of a Europe wide network of secret armies of the night established under N.A.T.O. auspices and in Greece, Turkey and Belgium they are believed to have been involved in terrorism and coup d'etat. The German section was comprised of Waffen S.S. veterans who drew up plans to assassinate Social Democrat politicians in the event of a 'Warsaw pact invasion'.<br><br>According to Mike Peters writing in Lobster no.32:<br><br> "Few citizens of N.A.T.O. countries are aware of the whole apparatus which to membership commits them e.g. Plans 10-G and 100-1 under which in 'emergency situations' special U.S. units would be activated to suppress any movement 'threatening to U.S. strategic interests'"(6)<br><br>It must be remembered that these events took place against a backdrop of unprecedented American intervention in Italy's political life, including $100 million in covert funding of political parties and a fine example of gunboat democracy during the first post-Mussolini election when the U.S. Mediterranean Fleet was poised off the coast near Rome ready to send in the Marines should the electorate make the wrong decision. Although the 'venerable master' Gelli was a regular visitor to the U.S. Embassy and has had rumours of C.I.A. links surface around him it is not clear, what, if any role was played by the C.I.A. in these events, in the least benevolent neutrality was more than likely their attitude. Whatever the case may be, the ghosts of the Greek military coup of 1967 hang over the murky shadows where Italy's secret state and fascist underground meet. This coup and subsequent military regime enjoyed full U.S. backing and was headed by one Colonel Papadopoulos a C.I.A. agent. Shortly before this during a dispute with the Greek Ambassador over American proposals to partition Cyprus, U.S. President Lyndon Johnson delivered the following tirade:<br><br> "Fuck your parliament and your constitution. America is an elephant, Cyprus is a flea, Greece is a flea. If these two fellows continue itching the elephant, they may just get whacked by the elephants trunk, whacked good . . . . If your Prime Minister gives me more talk about democracy, parliament and constitution, he, his, parliament and his constitution may not last very long" (7)<br><br> <br>(1) Quoted in 'The Darkside of Europe' by Geoffrey Harris page 113.<br>(2) 'The Ripening of Time no.12: Italy Documents of Struggle' page 11.<br>(3) 'The Fascist Experience in Italy' by John Pollard page 132/<br>(4) as (1)<br>(5) Quoted in 'The Beast Reawakens' by Martin Lee page 206.<br>(6) Lobster 32 page 3 (footnote)<br>(7) Quoted in 'Turning the Tide' by Noam Chomsky.<br> <br><br>Postscript: In March 2001 , General Maletti , commander of the counter-intelligence section of Italy's military intelligence , claimed , at a trial of various Fascists for one of the 1969 bombings , that "The C.I.A., following the directives of it's government, wanted to create an Italian nationalism capable of halting what it saw as a slide to the left and , for this purpose , it may have made use of rightwing terrorism. I believe this is what happened in other countries as well" (Quoted in the Guardian of March 26th 2001)<br><br>Footnote 1: including Silvio Berlusconi , later to be Italian Prime Minister . Berlusconi was head of Group 17 &endash; P2's media section tasked with influencing public opinion and with P-2's help moved into the television business , his companies now dominate the Italian media and have been instrumental in his election success in a coalition with the 'National Alliance' a split from the old Fascist part . The Media in Italy continues to link the modern radical left with the 'days of lead', with i.e. the terrorism of the 70ies. No comment necessary. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This article is printed, without attribution, on an anarchist site. I know nothing of them, but I've seen this info in many places. Let me know if there are major errors and maybe I can look for a more reliable source.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/freeearth/fe3_italy.html">flag.blackened.net/revolt...italy.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>I'd say that as far as motive, Strategy of Tension sure fits the bill. This is what Poirot was getting at with ID cards, but he likes to stay out of politics. As well as ad hominem debates. <br><br>Having a motive is no proof of conspiracy...but with 9/11 followed by the bizarre anthrax attacks, followed by the bombing...and with it quite clear that the anthrax attacks originated from homegrown and technically sophisticated anthrax...I don't think we should put 7/7 conspiracy theories on board the Titanic, so to speak. Or on the moon. Or even in a holographic plane.<br><br>The tension is clearly there. Is it deliberate strategy? We ALL agree, I'm sure, that Bush and Blair Inc. hopped on those events to get what they wanted. I realize that often the arguments given around here, especially these days (this board does go through odd phases) are often weak, circular and asking us to take a lot on faith...but I think there's some fire in all this smoke. <br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Illegal immigrants in London

Postby friend catcher » Fri May 19, 2006 4:51 am

The number of illegal immigrants in London is enormous and partially condoned/blind eyed by the authorities for the simple reason that they do many of the crappy jobs that no one else will. Also there is a skills shortage of many trades, like plumbers and sparks, which is filled to an extent by illegal immigrants. To suggest that being an illegal immigrant translates into paranoid behaviour is simply not true. Stockwell is one of the areas of London where it is hard to find an indigenous Brit and has a large YMCA that is the first stopping point for many new entrants to UK and acts as an informal information hub.<br><br>One of the things noticed by many of us at Gleneagles was the sheer overkill of policing in numerical terms, at least two police for each of us dissidents. Many of them were london Met coppers distinguished by their lack of manners and general arrogance, and when things got going, their complete lack of local knowledge. Having so many of Londons finest in Scotland was certainly an opportunity for someone but it effectively ended G8 opposition for many.I daresay that many coppers had a fleeting suspiscion as to the timely nature of the bombings and the London dibbles were desperate to either go back to London or get violent in Scotland.<br><br>My own view on the bombings is that a 'renegade' faction within the security services set the thing up, which would be an easy for them to do.Having so many of the london police focused on the G8 would increase the immediate confusion of response. <br>How would it work, possibly like this<br>Approach a known Islamic radical who falls well short of advocating terrorist attacks and ask him for his paid cooperation in an upcoming exercise for the security services and point out what a good thing it would be to show muslims helping the state to prevent terrorism. Instruct him and his compadres' to play the role of terrorist so the security boys can get some practise at tracking and identifying. Send them on a dummy run to check out their reliability. Pay them. Tell them how useful they have been make them feel valued. Sort out a reprise to be arranged at short notice and fill there bags with the real stuff and hey presto! I remember eye witness accounts of the bomber who took out the bus stating that the guy was panicking and trying to open his bag, maybe to check what was in it. Didn't he also try phoning his now dead mates on their mobiles, maybe thinking they'd done their anti terror exercise and were waiting at surface level. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Who is "Renegade"?

Postby antiaristo » Fri May 19, 2006 7:07 am

Byrne,<br>Thanks for posting the "official" links.<br>That should help Qutb with his project <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The 7/7 day timing was significant, as everyone in the UK who noticed the effect that the events had would testify..........but Oh No, the Official report has this to say:<br>"#35 There is no apparent significance in the choice of 7 July as the date for the attacks and no indication that the G8 conference which was taking place at Gleneagles at the time was a factor."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Interesting they talk about Gleneagles.<br>But has everybody forgotten what happened the previous day?<br>Something EXTREMELY important to the NWO?<br><br>And something that would without doubt have turned out differently following (rather than preceding) the bombs.<br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My own view on the bombings is that a 'renegade' faction within the security services set the thing up, which would be an easy for them to do<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Absolutely agree with that, friendcatcher. Where we differ is in the official "protection" given to the renegades. Read the official reports. Apparently the explosive was mixed at home in the bathtub, then carried down south in backpacks.<br><br>Everybody that saw the wreckage concluded "military explosive". Sarkozy pointed to the Balkans. We heard descriptions of tangled wreckages and bent metal.<br><br>Oh how the IRA would have loved to employ Khan in its ranks in the good old days!<br><br>So it's indicative that they will employ baldfaced lies, confident that none of the experts will contradict them. That's protection. That's protection from the very top.<br><br>What about the tape that began this thread? The MI5 tape of khan. The one withheld from the ISC?<br><br>The story has been killed. It has hardly been mentioned outside the original Times story. Parliamentarians have nothing to say about it. IT NEVER HAPPENED.*<br><br>Those are but two examples.<br><br>So you must ask yourself, who has such power?<br>Could it be the same as the power which protected those "renegade" security services during the destabilisation of Harold Wilson?<br><br>My answer is yes, there is a common thread between them. Others will say there is nothing there, that these things just happen. That is the "official" position.<br><br>And I'm sure FDR would agree with me. He knew that "when it comes to politics, nothing happens by chance". Wilson (Woodrow) would agree with me. He spoke about "a power so subtle, so all-pervading". Queen Elizabeth, were she honest, would agree as well. She said "There are powers at work in this country about which we have no knowledge". Same with George HW Bush, who was overheard to say "If the people were to ever find out what we have done, we would be chased down the streets and lynched." <br><br>But the people never find out because they are forever fighting each other.<br><br>The hallmark of the British Empire.<br><br>Speaking of the British Empire, and knowing your own location, do you have any comments on this?<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The Walker Cup is a golf trophy contested biennially in odd numbered years between teams comprising the leading amateur golfers of the United States and Great Britain and Ireland (in political terms the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland). The event, officially called the Walker Cup Match (not "Matches"<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> , is <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>co-organised by the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews and the United States Golf Association, and is named in honor of George Herbert Walker (grandfather and namesake of the former President of the United States George H. W. Bush and great-grandfather of the current President), who was president of the USGA in 1920 when the series was initiated.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> There was an unofficial event in 1921 and annual events to 1924. From that time on it became a biennial event, and it later switched to odd numbered years. It is played alternately on either side of the Atlantic.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Cup">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Cup</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Added on edit<br><br>*There are other examples where true stories have been "disappeared". Go to the fourth post in this thread<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm9.showMessage?topicID=93.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...D=93.topic</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antiaristo>antiaristo</A> at: 5/19/06 5:24 am<br></i>
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Re: Illegal immigrants in London

Postby Byrne » Fri May 19, 2006 7:12 am

friend catcher,<br><br>Your 'scenario' seems plausible, but there would have been a network of people involved in both the 7/7 & 21/7 events. Most of these associated with the July 21st events, we are told), have been now detained & many of them won't be in court until 2007!!. Look at the facts below:<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">July 7th 2005</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>4 No. bombs exploded<br>56 dead<br>0 Arrests<br>No trial/convictions<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">July 21st 2005</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>0 No. bombs exploded<br>0 dead<br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>43</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> people detained ><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>17</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> charged > (see <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4732361.stm" target="top">here</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> for info & below)<br><br>From the BBC news link:<br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Hussain Osman</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 27, charged with conspiracy to murder London Transport passengers, possessing an explosive substance and attempting to murder passengers. An Old Bailey judge set a provisional trial date of September 2006.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Ibrahim Muktar Said</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 27, of Stoke Newington, London, charged with conspiracy to murder London Transport passengers, possessing an explosive substance and attempting to murder passengers. Due to face trial in September 2006.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Ramzi Mohamed</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 24, of North Kensington, London, charged with conspiracy to murder London Transport passengers, possessing an explosive substance and attempting to murder passengers. Due to face trial in September 2006. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Yassin Hassan Omar</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 24, of New Southgate, London, charged with conspiracy to murder London Transport passengers, possessing an explosive substance and attempting to murder passengers. Due to face trial in September 2006. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Manfo Kwaku Asiedu</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 32, of Finsbury Park, London, charged with conspiracy to murder and conspiracy to cause explosions likely to endanger life or cause serious injury. Due to face trial in September 2006. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Adel Yahya</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 23, of Tottenham, north London, charged with conspiracy to cause explosions. He was arrested on 20 December at Gatwick Airport after he arrived back from Ethiopia. He is due to appear at the Old Bailey on 6 January. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Siraj Yassin Abdullah Ali</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 30, of New Southgate, London, charged with failing to disclose information that may help police investigating an act of terrorism. Also charged with assisting a suspect evade arrest. An Old Bailey judge said a trial was not expected before January 2007. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Wharbi Mohammed</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 23, of Notting Hill, London, charged with failing to disclose information that may help police investigating an act of terrorism. Also charged with assisting a suspect in evading arrest. Trial not expected until 2007. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Asias Girma</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 20, of Stockwell, London, charged with assisting a person or persons in evading arrest. Also charged with failing to disclose information that may help police investigating an act of terrorism. Trial not expected until 2007. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Ismael Abdurahman</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 23, of Kennington, London, charged with failing to disclose information that may help police investigating an act of terrorism. Also charged with helping suspects to evade arrest. Trial not expected until 2007. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Shadi Sami Abdel Gadir</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 23, of Brighton, charged with failing to disclose information that may help police investigating an act of terrorism. Also charged with helping a suspect to evade arrest. Trial not expected until 2007. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Omar Nagmeloin Almagboul</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 20, of Brighton, charged with failing to disclose information that may help police investigating an act of terrorism. Further charged with helping a suspect evade arrest. Trial not expected until 2007. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Abdul Sharif</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 28, of Stockwell, London, charged with failing to disclose information that may help police investigating an act of terrorism. Also charged with helping a suspect evade arrest. Trial not expected until 2007. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Mohamed Kabashi</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 23, of no fixed abode, charged with failing to disclose information that may help police investigating an act of terrorism. Also charged with helping a suspect evade arrest. Trial not expected until 2007.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Yeshiemebet Girma</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 29, of Stockwell, London - wife of bomb suspect Hussain Osman - charged with failing to disclose information that may help police investigating an act of terrorism. Also charged with helping a suspect to evade arrest. Trial not expected until 2007.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Mulumebet Girma</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 21, of Stockwell, London - sister of Yeshiemebet Girma - charged with failing to disclose information that may help police investigating an act of terrorism. Also charged with helping a suspect to evade arrest. Trial not expected until 2007.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Muhedin Ali</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, 27, from west London, charged with having information which could have led to the prosecution of Hussain Osman. Also charged with knowing or believing that Hussain Osman had committed attempted murder, conspiracy to murder and other offences. <br><br>So, nearly 2 years in prison (for some) for failing <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>to disclose information/ helping a suspect evade arrest</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->?? That seems a bit much?1 But this is WAR ON TERROR territory <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :eek --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>Also see <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.spy.org.uk/spyblog/2005/10/why_is_parveen_sharif_on_trial.html" target="top">here</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> for an article describing an example of <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>this bizarre and Kafkaesque "grasping at straws" approach to "terrorist" prosecutions of people who are not actually terrorists - the trial of Parveen Sharif, the sister of the allegedly failed British suicide bomber Omar Khan Sharif</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> Also note the comments below the article (& that the Reuters link is dead). <br><br>I believe that these people, together with those <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4835666.stm" target="top">recently in the Old Bailey</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> in March under the 'evidence of US Supergrass Mohammed Junaid Babar are conveniently 'out of the way', for now at least. Notice how young some of the suspects are. <br><br>Now if the JCDeMenezes incident hadn't happened, there would be MUCH more public interest in these cases. The DeMenezes incident deflected attention away fro these cases AND cranked up the terror quotient for the UK public. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Illegal immigrants in London

Postby antiaristo » Fri May 19, 2006 7:48 am

Byrne,<br>I partially agree with what you say.<br><br>I would propose that the 21/7 events were put in train to divert attention away from the 7/7 events, but that the de Menezes killing was slightly different.<br><br>Certainly what happened on 21/7 is exactly what we have been told happened on 7/7. Home brew explosives.<br><br>It is part of the NWO modus operandi to bring in a second, very similar event, to overlay the first.<br><br>Two that come immediately to mind.<br><br>Queen Elizabeth II. When she ascended the Throne everybody gradually forgot there was another Queen Elizabeth. She started to be called something else. She was called the Queen Mother. It worked very well: I've had people on this board ask me if the Queen Mother was a queen in her own right!<br><br>John Paul II. Everybody forgot about the first John Paul, and the way in which his life ended. Hardly anybody mentions him today.<br><br>The de Menezes incident was meant to be part of the 21/7 narrative. They thought it was Hussain Osman, a black Englishman. Had they been correct there would have been none of this prolonged inquiry nonsense. It would have been "He got what he had coming to him".<br><br>And shoot-to-kill would have become established, and far less controversial, policy. Yet all the insiders in the security services would have learned it was a ritual assassination. The lesson to be drawn would be that they can kill anybody, even in as public a place as the Tube, and get away with it. Insiders would be even less inclined to speak out.<br><br>If they can carry out such an exercise, with "witnesses" on hand to describe the wires coming out of his belt, they can do anything. So what chance Robin Cook on an isolated mountainside? <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antiaristo>antiaristo</A> at: 5/19/06 5:52 am<br></i>
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Re: The tickets are immaterial

Postby Qutb » Fri May 19, 2006 7:49 am

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Which is not to say that I have the slightest faith in the grotesque, threadbare, racist and deeply implausible "narrative" dished up by No-Inquiry Blair and his Boys in Blue. After all, these were the very same people who gave us the Dodgy Dossier and the Menezes Yarn. Anyone who believes a serial liar is a fool, especially when there is no possibility of verifying the serial liar's narrative, and most especially when that serial liar is an ally of George W. Bush in the oxymoronic War on Terror."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>It has nothing whatsoever to do with believing Blair & Co (if anything, you'd have to believe Scotland Yard, MI5 etc - Blair isn't in charge of the investigation). I know it's a shocking insight to some, but sometimes the simple and obvious is what actually happened. What I see in these alternative 7/7 theories that propose some kind of govt/intel operation is contrived, almost desperate attempts to deny the fact that young European Muslims, indoctrinated in the radical Islamist ideology, are willing to blow themselves up to kill others in politically motivated attacks. Acknowledging this isn't "racist", by the way. Denying the reality of radical Islamism and its appeal to certain segments of the young European Muslim populace borders on wilfull ignorance in my view. This wasn't invented by Blair and Bush and won't disappear when they're gone. It has, however, been fueled by their policies.<br><br>Those theories are notably lacking in an analysis of motive, as well. The attack hurt Blair in every way. Any political analyst would have been able to predict that. It exposed the lie of "fighting them over there...". Most Brits seemed to blame the Iraq adventure for what happened, and rightly so. I just don't see why British authorities would have wanted that to happen, at that point in time.<br><br>Maybe I'm crazy, but the "deeply implausibe" here, to me, is the various conspiracy narratives.<br><br>Byrne - <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"When I said "deflect attention away from the events of 7/7 & 21/7", I meant deflect attention away from the investigation of events on 7/7 & 21/7".</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>By killing an innocent man and then lying about the circumstances, lies that were, predictably, subsequently exposed by the media? Doesn't seem like a very good idea.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"The Visor terror drills probably accounted for the large number of reported delays on a lot of the London Underground network well BEFORE the bomb detonation times of 8.50am. If they didn't WAHT DID??!!"</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Let me reiterate that the sole source on the existance of this drill is Peter Powers. And he says it was a desktop drill. That's what these security consultant companies do, anyway. They don't usually run large live drills where they halt traffic and so on. Those are run by official authorities to test and drill first responders, police etc. There is absolutely no indication that such a drill was going on that day. <br><br>As friend catcher points out, tube delays can have plenty of reasons. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: And the Ghoul ?

Postby Qutb » Fri May 19, 2006 7:56 am

Starman - <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"But Qutb, how can you say Menezes was a 'criminal' because his visa had expired? That's not the active commision of a crime, but an administrative infraction."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em><br>"I'm curious why Qutb insists on casting Menezes here as the bad-guy?"</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Whoah! That was Sepka the Space Weasel, not me. I would never call Menezes a criminal. The criminals are the guys who shot him.<br><br>However, that doesn't mean they were ordered to by the Queen to deflect attention away from the 7/7 MI5 op or as a Freemasonic sacrifice to the dogs of Sirius. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"And from Rio, a reader commented, "The murder of the Brazilian in London is a consequence of the policy of war. In militarizing the world, the US and its British allies have turned it into an unsafe place for everyone. But this doesn't matter to Bush and Blair, who want not peace but power."<br>--unquote--<br><br>Man, I couldn't say it better. What you sow, so shall Ye reap."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Yes, I agree, that was well put.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The tickets are immaterial

Postby antiaristo » Fri May 19, 2006 7:57 am

Qutb,<br>Until you tell us what DID happen you are nothing more than a wrecker picking holes in everybody else. Or as another put it, a psychological vampire.<br><br>Do something CONSTRUCTIVE, for once.<br><br><br>Added on edit<br><br>Actually that's not quite true.<br>You don't pick holes in everybody.<br>You don't pick holes in me, do you?<br>Your approach is different.<br>You change what I say, then ridicule your own construction.<br>You've not been able to pick any factual holes in me, have you?<br>That's why you duck me, or fabricate.<br><br>You are an intellectual coward. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antiaristo>antiaristo</A> at: 5/19/06 6:13 am<br></i>
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Re: The tickets are immaterial

Postby Qutb » Fri May 19, 2006 8:27 am

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Until you tell us what DID happen you are nothing more than a wrecker picking holes in everybody else. Or as another put it, a psychological vampire.<br><br>Do something CONSTRUCTIVE, for once."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Anti, unlike certain others, I don't pretend to know exactly what happened. I've stated my position: I find the conspiracist narratives less plausible than the non-conspiracist ones. Beyond that, how would I be in a position to know the precise details of how things transpired?<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Actually that's not quite true.<br>You don't pick holes in everybody.<br>You don't pick holes in me, do you?<br>Your approach is different.<br>You change what I say, then ridicule your own construction.<br>You've not been able to pick any factual holes in me, have you?<br>That's why you duck me, or fabricate.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>You are an intellectual coward."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Perhaps. But it's difficult to pick holes in your theoretical construct when I don't even understand it fully. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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