Qutb, don't duck this one (London Bombing)

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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby antiaristo » Thu May 18, 2006 5:02 pm

Sepka,<br><br>The enemy???<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="font-size:small;">Police chiefs urged secrecy over shoot-to-kill anti-terror tactics</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <br><br>By Sophie Goodchild, Chief Reporter <br>Published: 12 February 2006 <br><br>Chief police officers kept a controversial shoot-to-kill policy against suicide bombers secret from the public because they feared it would be "watered down". <br><br>Barbara Wilding, one of the architects of the strategy known as Operation Kratos, has revealed that members of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) advised against a national debate when the new guidelines were drawn up three years ago, because people did not understand how serious the threat was from suicide bombers.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article344957.ece">news.independent.co.uk/uk...344957.ece</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Like I said, a fait accomplit.<br><br>And by the way, whatever you call an enemy, I don't call an honest man on his way to work an "enemy".<br><br>Your entire attitude to this matter seems to be one of projection, in which anything is justified because we are at war. Look where that has got America. Even Conservatives now believe the country is "on the wrong track".<br><br>Second, my point about Poirot was in reference to Peter Power, and Peter Power alone. Something funny going on when you lecture me about those little clocks you Americans wear on your wrists.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm sure the majority of people travelling on the trains buy returns.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Oh, really?<br>Your knowledge base for this certainty?<br>Do you know anything about the economics of single versus return tickets on British trains? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby antiaristo » Thu May 18, 2006 5:10 pm

Qutb,<br>Are you ducking me again?<br><br>On a side issue you seem to have trouble reading.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It hinges on the words of Peter Powers, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>but according to the theory Powers is one of the bad guys involved in the attacks...</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> who wilfully incriminates himself and whom we have to believe in order to believe the theory.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>DE: But he says it was a coincidence. And why would he have announced this "coincidence" if he had been part of a criminal plot.<br><br>FD: Mais non, mon ami, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>I did not say Mr. Power was to blame</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. I said he could tell you who was the planner of this crime most diabolique! Ask Mr. Power who employed his company to carry out this so-called drill, and you will be well on your way to solving this case!<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby Qutb » Thu May 18, 2006 5:14 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"How do you KNOW the four men were not part of that exercise?"</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>How do you KNOW the moon isn't made of cheese? I haven't claimed to KNOW everything. But I see absolutely no reason to believe this excercise was anything other than a tabletop drill held by a private company. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby antiaristo » Thu May 18, 2006 5:20 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But nobody did. They have a way of clamping down in the UK. It's called a D(ecree)-Notice.<br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>So we don't know.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> But it does not take a genius to identify any number of "advantages" to such a "training exercise". How do you KNOW the four men were not part of that exercise?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Now I'm still waiting for you to tell us the official story. Selective, out of context quotes will not suffice, I'm afraid. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby Qutb » Thu May 18, 2006 5:21 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Ask Mr. Power who employed his company to carry out this so-called drill, and you will be well on your way to solving this case!"</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Well, I think M Poirot is wrong in this instance... if Mr Powers is a decent chap who's not into any of this mihop business, I very much doubt the bad guys would hire his company to "mihop", as it were... <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby FourthBase » Thu May 18, 2006 5:23 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It hinges on the words of Peter Powers, but according to the theory Powers is one of the bad guys involved in the attacks...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>Again, more intellectual dishonesty.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But I see absolutely no reason to believe this excercise was anything other than a tabletop drill held by a private company.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>I see absolutely no reason to believe you're being sincere. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby Qutb » Thu May 18, 2006 5:24 pm

It may not take a genius, but I'm at loss to see those advantages accrued from a tabletop drill - which, may I repeat myself, by all apparences was all it was. Imaginary D-notices notwithstanding.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby Qutb » Thu May 18, 2006 5:31 pm

"<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Again, more intellectual dishonesty</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->."<br><br>"<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>I see absolutely no reason to believe you're being sincere</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->."<br><br>Well, fuck you too. Is this a veiled "disinfo agent" accusation again? Or what other reason would I have to be dishonest? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby Sepka » Thu May 18, 2006 5:55 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And by the way, whatever you call an enemy, I don't call an honest man on his way to work an "enemy".<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Nor do I. Nor did the framers of Kratos. That's because De Menezes wasn't deliberately targetted. He was killed because he was mistaken for a suicide bomber - he was mistaken for an enemy.<br><br>And I can't help but note, though, that he wasn't an 'honest man' anyway. He was in the country illegally. While not a suicide bomber, he <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>was</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> a criminal, with reason to avoid the authorities, which may have contributed to suspicious behaviour on his part.<br><br>[quote[Do you know anything about the economics of single versus return tickets on British trains?[/quote]<br>Educate me, then. What percentage of travellers buy single tickets vs. returns on the London tube?<br><br>-Sepka the Space Weasel <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby antiaristo » Thu May 18, 2006 6:06 pm

Sepka,<br>You betray your ignorance of what happened on 7/7 as you betrayed your ignorance of what happened on 7/22.<br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Educate me, then. What percentage of travellers buy single tickets vs. returns on the London tube?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>They were not Tube tickets. They were British Rail (surface) tickets into London.<br><br>I use the word ignorance because you offer such harsh opinions and motivations of ordinary people, yet seem to absolve the authorities of any responsibility for how they use such absolute powers.<br><br>How can you possibly say what you said about de Menezes?<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby friend catcher » Thu May 18, 2006 6:43 pm

A return ticket on the train in Britain is often cheaper than a single,it is uncommon to ask for a single. It's a curious anomaly that is often commented on for it's absurdity.A tube ticket operates on a more normal procedure. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Beams and Motes

Postby antiaristo » Thu May 18, 2006 6:51 pm

friendcatcher,<br>As you know it's some time since I lived in Britain, but I'd be very surprised if what you say is true. These were rush hour commuter trains into London.<br><br>All the time I was in Britain that was always the most expensive time to travel, and there were no special deals. Later on in the day, maybe. But not at the rush hour. And everything I've read about the train system tells me that the private companies are more stingy than the old BR.<br><br>So I doubt what you say is true.<br>Can you provide some evidence, please? <p></p><i></i>
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The tickets are immaterial

Postby Bismillah » Thu May 18, 2006 6:58 pm

I really wish people would stop rabbiting on about those bloody return tickets, which prove precisely nothing whatsoever. Anyone who WAS planning to carry out a suicide bombing would have had no reason whatsoever to save a few quid by buying a single ticket, and very good reason indeed to avoid even the tiniest possibility of attracting suspicion. <br><br>Which is not to say that I have the slightest faith in the grotesque, threadbare, racist and deeply implausible "narrative" dished up by No-Inquiry Blair and his Boys in Blue. After all, these were the very same people who gave us the Dodgy Dossier and the Menezes Yarn. Anyone who believes a serial liar is a fool, especially when there is no possibility of verifying the serial liar's narrative, and most especially when that serial liar is an ally of George W. Bush in the oxymoronic War on Terror. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The tickets are immaterial

Postby friend catcher » Thu May 18, 2006 7:26 pm

Wimbledon to waterloo, in 2002, cost £4.80 return at 8 in the morning and a single cost £4.60 so even if a single was all that was needed a return was bought just in case.Many people would hand over the return portion of a ticket to people buying tickets at the automated ticket booths in a spirit of defiance. Long distance journeys such as Manchester to London are nearly always the same price and often a single is more expensive. This has been the case for many years and is often commented on for it's stupidity. I think anyone who has spent a bit of time here would know this, even tourists comment on it. Despite privatisation this is a scam that has remained.Try looking at <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.thetrainline.com/">www.thetrainline.com/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> to see for yourself <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=friendcatcher>friend catcher</A> at: 5/18/06 5:43 pm<br></i>
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Re: The tickets are immaterial

Postby Byrne » Thu May 18, 2006 7:54 pm

When I said "deflect attention away from the events of 7/7 & 21/7", I meant deflect attention away from the <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>investigation</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> of events on 7/7 & 21/7".<br><br>The Visor terror drills probably accounted for the large number of reported delays on a lot of the London Underground network well BEFORE the bomb detonation times of 8.50am. If they didn't WAHT DID??!!<br><br>I <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>KNOW</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> of people who experienced a catologue of strange delays on the morning of 7/7. I'm talking of witnesses to large numbers of Police/Special Ops on duty at a number of stations on the lines affected, well before 8.50am. So , whatever anyone says, the teror drill was <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">NOT</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> just a <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>DESKTOP</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> exercise. The Narrative makes no mention of earlier delays on the underground network caused by numerous cancelled trains & delays at stations well before any of the ‘explosions’ occurred, nor any mention of any terror drills which, if it were to be a genuine enquiry, would surely reference such facts - even if ony to dismiss them by some reason or another.<br><br>Below are some of the comments posted on forums on days following the events of 7/7:<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>****************<br>My friend got the Piccadilly line Tube to Leicester Square yesterday and as he got off he was told they're shutting down the line because of a fire near King's Cross. Yeah, I know what happened yesterday, but this was at 8.17 (he checked because he sent his girlfriend a text at this<br>time saying don't get the Tube) and the first attack wasn't till 10 to 9. Can you shed some light on this?<br>Row, United Kingdom<br><br>****************<br>"Luckily I got the train this morning at 07:00. A train journey which normally takes 35mins took 1 hour and 30 mins. First there was a security alert at Bank station, then all tubes were being stopped at Stockwell station due to a some kind of disruption at Balham tube station (apparently a fire on a train?) I went from North London to South on the tube directly through the affected area and got off 15 minutes before the explosion."        <br>****************<br><br>I catch the Piccadilly line at 7.15am each morning from Southgate to reach my work in Kensington by 8.00. Normally, all seats are taken by Finsbury Park and carriages are packed by Kings Cross. However, yesterday my tube journey was eerily quiet. For the first time ever there were spare seats in my carriage all the way through zone 1. It was noticeable enough for me to wonder what on earth was going on. This was at 7.45 - over an hour before attacks began.<br>I've also heard people saying that the Northern Line was being shut down at the same time.<br><br>**********<br><br>I was due to pick a work collegue up from balham at 7:15am, but when i got there i was greeted with Tube emergency vans, police and and hoards of people being turned away from a closed station.<br>All very strange they must have known something was going to happan, the surely had a tip off. As i drove along the road, (which also follows the tubes) they were all shut and hundreds of people were queing for buses.<br><br>when i reached Oval, which was open there were two armed policemen in a road next to the station, which for a quiet area like that is extremly rare.<br><br>the northen line was shut from morden to stockwell. They blatently knew something was going down, they just got it wrong and are hopeing no one mentions anything.<br>******<br><br>No dog units but there were two unmarked police cars with blue lights stuck to the top, speeding that way, just seems very strange to have 9 stations shut at peak times, then announce that there was an electrical surge, then over an hour later we hear off the first bomb.<br>**********<br><br>Got to Arnos Grove, 8.30 AM Thursday. Unable to enter station, sign reads "due to fire, Piccadilly Line suspended between Arnos Grove and Kings Cross". NB this is well before first bomb at Liverpool St/Aldgate at 8.51AM. FOAF saw<br>fire engine outside Caledonian Road station at 8.25AM. Was this a suspected fire, totally separate from the bombings later on? Or was there some vague intelligence re. an attack on the Tube that morning? Note that other lines (Eg. Northern Line) were also experiencing problems, but is that par for the<br>course on any given day on London's Tube network? Or am I just being overly suspicious about how events were reported, given the 'power surge' headlines? Discuss.<br>*****<br><br>What i can't understand is why nothing has been reported about the events at 7am yesterday morning on the Northen line from Stockwell to Morden<br><br>I was due to pick up a work collegue from there, but turned up to see the staion closed and an entourage of tube emergency vans, police and the like. As i followed the line down, all the other stations were shut.<br>------------------------<br><br>On Thursday i set off to work as usual and arrived at Elstree station where i was faced with crowds as lots of trains had been cancelled due to overhead power cables being damaged (apparently). Finally a train pulled up and i managed to get on and even find a seat! We were told half way through our<br>journey that we would be terminated at Kentish Town because of a fire alert at Moorgate station. We all sighed as everybody was late already........then the driver announced that we would infact be terminating at Kings Cross instead! A relief - or so we thought!<br>---------------<br><br>A woman I know was informed by her sister, who is a police officer, not to use public transport last thursday, at 7 AM.<br>-----------------<br><br>The person who says that "any police or ambulances would have been sent as standard" appears to be pooh-poohing what other people saw, IMO, because he or she finds it hard to believe. It appears that something big was going on at various parts of the tube network before the bombs went off. It also appears that very large numbers of people experienced this, and I hope that most of them don't get conned into thinking that their experiences didn't happen or were 'normal', because – especially when you add it all together - it stinks to high heaven.<br><br>Also there is a tube depot at Morden. Is someone really going to tell me that a broken down train at Balham at 6.30 am would normally lead to the PROLONGED CLOSURE of all stations between Morden and Stockwell? Rubbish!<br><br>I just wonder whether this person really does work on the Northern Line, because he seems to forget that Stockwell is on the Victoria Line as well the Northern Line. Closing the whole station because of a broken down train FOUR STATIONS AWAY on the NORTHERN Line would be doubly ridiculous - it would NEVER happen in the normal course of things. There must have been something other than a broken-down train.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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