Naomi Wolf: What Is Probably in the Missing Tapes

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Naomi Wolf: What Is Probably in the Missing Tapes

Postby professorpan » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:56 pm

Published on Friday, December 14, 2007 by The Huffington Post

What Is Probably in the Missing Tapes

by Naomi Wolf

To judge from firsthand documents obtained by the ACLU through a FOIA lawsuit, we can guess what is probably on the missing CIA interrogation tapes — as well as understand why those implicated are spinning so hard to pretend the tapes do not document a series of evident crimes. According to the little-noticed but extraordinarily important book Administration of Torture: A Documentary Record from Washington to Abu Ghraib and Beyond (Jameel Jaffer and Amrit Singh, Columbia University Press, New York 2007), which presents dozens of original formerly secret documents - FBI emails and memos, letters and interrogator “wish lists,” raw proof of the systemic illegal torture of detainees in various US-held prisons — the typical “harsh interrogation” of a suspect in US custody reads like an account of abuses in archives at Yad Vashem.

More is still being hidden as of this writing — as those in Congress now considering whether a special prosecutor is needed in this case should be urgently aware: “Through the FOIA lawsuit,” write the authors, “we learned of the existence of multiple records relating to prisoner abuse that still have not been released by the administration; credible media reports identify others. As this book goes to print, the Bush administration is still withholding, among many other records, a September 2001 presidential directive authorizing the CIA to set up secret detention centers overseas; an August 2002 Justice Department memorandum advising the CIA about the lawfulness of waterboarding [Italics mine; nota bene, Mr. Mukasey] and other aggressive interrogation methods; documents describing interrogation methods used by special operations forces in Iraq and Afghanistan; investigative files concerning the deaths of prisoners in U.S. custody; and numerous photographs depicting the abuse of prisoners at detention facilities other than Abu Ghraib.’

What we are likely to see if the tapes documenting the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah and Abd Al-Rahim Al-Nashiri are ever recovered is that the “confessions” of the prisoners upon which the White House has built its entire case for subverting the Constitution and suspending civil liberties in this country was obtained through methods such as electrocution, beating to the point of organ failure, hanging prisoners from the wrists from a ceiling, suffocation, and threats against family members (”I am going to find your mother and I am going to **** her” is one direct quote from a US interrogator). On the missing tapes, we would likely see responses from the prisoners that would be obvious to us as confessions to anything at all in order to end the violence. In other words, if we could witness the drama of manufacturing by torture the many violently coerced “confessions” upon which the whole house of cards of this White House and its hyped “war on terror” rests, it would likely cause us to reopen every investigation, including the most serious ones (remember, even the 9/11 committee did not receive copies of the tapes); shut down the corrupt, Stalinesque Military Commissions System; turn over prisoners, the guilty and the innocent, into a working, accountable justice system operating in accordance with American values; and direct our legal scrutiny to the torturers themselves — right up to the office of the Vice President and the President if that is where the investigations would lead.

By the way: “The prohibition against torture [in the law] is considered to be a jus cogens norm, meaning that no derogation is permitted from it under any circumstances.”

This is what the FOIA documents report, belying White House soundbites that “we don’t torture” and explaining the intent pursuit on the part of the CIA and the White House of the current apparent obstruction of justice:

Late 2002 — the FBI objects to the illegality of abuses being put into place by the Defense Department in its “special interrogation plan” to use isolation, sleep deprivation and menacing with dogs against prisoners.

Dec 2, 2002 — Defense Secretary Rumsfeld personally issues a directive authorizing the use of stress positions, hooding, removal of clothing, and the terrorizing of inmates at Guantanamo with dogs.

Dec 3, 2002 — at Baghram, interrogators kill an Afghan prisoner “by shackling him by his wrists to the wire ceiling above his cell and repeatedly beating his legs. A postmortem report finds abrasions and contusions on the prisoner’s face, head, neck, arms and legs and determines that the death was a “homicide” caused by “blunt force injuries.”

April 16, 2003 — Rumsfeld approves yet another directive for abusive interrogation.

This directive for Afghanistan restores to the interrogators’ arsenal many forms of torture that had been resisted by the FBI. [Notably, the FBI had resisted complying with the direct commission of torture since as early as 2002 because, as its Behavioral Analysis Unit complained to the Defense Department at that time in an internal email, “not only are these tactics at odds with legally permissible interviewing techniques [italics mine: in other words, all concerned know these are apparent war crimes]…but they are being employed by personnel in GTMO who have little, if any, experience eliciting information for judicial purposes.” In other words, as any trained interrogator knows, the abuses are both doubtless illegal and certainly ineffective for getting real intelligence. [Jaffer and Singh, Timeline of Key Events, pp. 45-65,op. cit.]

Oct 22 2003 — Final autopsy report relating to death of “52 y/o Iraqi Male, Civilian Detainee” held by U.S. forces in Nasiriyah, Iraq. Prisoner was found to have “died as a result of asphyxia…due to strangulation.”

November 14, 2003 — a sworn statement of a soldier stationed at Camp Red, Baghdad, states that “I saw what I think were war crimes” and that “the chain of command….allowed them to happen.”

May 13, 2004 — a sworn statement of the 302nd Military Intelligence Battalion recounts an incident in which “interrogators abused 17-year-old son of prisoner in order to ‘break’ the prisoner.”

May 18, 2004 — a Privacy Act statement of an Abu Ghraib sergeant notes that prisoners had been forced to stand “naked with a bag over their head, standing on MRE boxes and their hand[s] spread out…holding a bottle in each hand.”

May 24, 2004 — Sworn statement of interrogator who arrived at Abu Ghraib in October 2003, discussing use of military dogs against juvenile prisoners.

June 16, 2004 — Marine Corps document describing abuse cases between September 2001 and June 2004, including “substantiated” incidents in which marines electrocuted a prisoner and set another’s hands on fire.

Undated: Sworn statement of screener who arrived at Abu Ghraib in September 2003, indicating that prisoners at Asamiya Palace in Baghdad had been beaten, burned and subjected to electric shocks.

Subsequent internal documents record prisoners being stripped, made to walk into walls blindfolded, punched, kicked, dragged about the room, observed to have bruises and burn marks on their backs, and having their jaws deliberately broken. Still other reports document further incidents classified by the military itself as probable murders committed by US interrogators.

The book also reveals an extraordinary original transcript of a Dept. of the Army Inspector General interview with Lieutenant General Randall Marc Schmidt. Lt. Gen. Schmidt had interfaced with MG Geoffrey Miller on the one hand — the most brutal overseer of such abuses, the one who was sent to “Gitmo-ize” other prisons — and the honorable JAG military lawyers on the other hand, over the abuses under investigation at that time. [Lt. Gen. Schmidt advised MG Miller of his rights under Article 31 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice at that time — in other words, those involved know something serious is at stake, p. a-16].

The transcript of this internal document reveals Lt. Gen. Schmidt’s own words that it was his understanding that the directives to commit these acts, many of which are apparently war crimes, came right from the top.

The interview was not primarily intended to be a public document:

“An Inspector General” notes the document, “is an impartial fact-finder for the Directing Authority Testimony taken by an IG and reports based on that testimony may be used for official purposes. Access is normally restricted to persons who clearly need the information to perform their official duties. [italics mine]. In some cases, disclosure to other persons may be required by law or regulation or may be directed by proper authority.” As in the case, clearly, here — though the immense implications of this privately taken testimony have not reverberated fully yet in a public forum: “I thought the Secretary of Defense in good faith was approving techniques,” testified Lt. Gen. Schmidt. “In good faith after talking to him twice. I know that — and these weren’t interrogations or interviews of him. This was our hour and forty-five minutes and then another hour and fifteen kind of thing were [sic] we sat in there and had these discussions with him.” [Testimony of Lt. Gen. Randall M Schmidt, Taken 24 August 2005 at Davis Mountain Air Force Base, Arizona, Dept. of the Army Inspector General, Investigations Division, pp. a-30 to a-53, Jaffer and Singh, op. cit].

So what should Congress know as it decides what is to be done?

We torture, illegally, by directive; the directives come from the top; those who torture know it is probably criminal; when we torture prisoners, the guilty and the innocent, they will tell us anything they think we want to hear — including implicate themselves falsely, as many reports from Human Rights Watch and other rights organizations testify to — to make the torture stop; and the White House routinely uses that faked or coerced unverifiable “intelligence” to buttress its wholesale assault on our liberties.

As the CIA tries to spin its apparent crimes and claim that its waterboarding and other forms of criminal torture “saved lives” — while conveniently offering no evidence to back that up, and while the administration withholds evidence to the contrary from the lawyers of the detainees — we should bear in mind that the decades of research on torture summarized in the magisterial survey “The Question of Torture” show beyond the shadow of a doubt that prisoners being tortured will indeed “say anything.” When American prisoners were tortured by the North Vietnamese, their confessions were phrased in Communist cliches.

We should note too — as the White House tries to muddy the waters by pretending that there has ever been a “debate” about such acts as these — that the US in the past prosecuted waterboarding itself: when the Japanese had waterboarded US prisoners they were convicted with sentences of fifteen years of hard labor.

We should also bear in mind that the Bush White House has deliberately crafted its memos and laws — such as the Bybee/Gonzales “torture memo” and the Military Commissions Act of 2006 — with a keen eye to seeking indemnification of its own guilt regarding having committed evident crimes, because those involved know quite well that acts committed could be criminal acts. (An historical note worth mentioning, when we consider how hyperalert the Bush White House has been to the issue of seeking retroactively to protect itself and its subordinates from prosecution for war and other crimes, is that the Nuremberg Trials eventually swept up influential Nazi industrialists such as Fritz Thyssen of IG Farben — who relied on Auschwitz slave labor — and with whom Prescott Bush had collaborated in amassing the Bush family millions; some of the sentences given to those industrialists found guilty in the postwar trials were severe.) For a moment postwar, the legal spotlight was also about to search out and hold accountable the several prominent US investors who had partnered with Nazi industrialists (see the exhaustively documented study of US/Nazi corporate collaboration, IBM and the Holocaust.)

Prosecution for war crimes and other criminal acts, which the administration so clearly recognizes that it may well have committed — which its legislation so clearly shows it realized it may well commit in advance of the commission — is the only consequence the Bush team seems to be really afraid of as it attempts its multiple subversions of the rule of law. This is why the nation’s grassroots call for a truly independent investigation into possible criminality is so very urgent and so necessary to restore the rule of law in our nation.

Mr. Mukasey could look up his own department’s files and understand that waterboarding is a war crime; not only that, the US Military prosecuted waterboarding as a war crime itself in 1902 — it had been used against prisoners in the Phillipines — and those Americans who had committed it received convictions from the military. It is hopeless to rely on the Justice Department.

An independent special prosecutor must be appointed. The people who are found guilty, in America, must face justice.

Let the investigations begin.

Naomi Wolf is an author whose books include The Beauty Myth

Copyright © 2007 HuffingtonPost.com, Inc.
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Postby IanEye » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:08 pm

We should also bear in mind that the Bush White House has deliberately crafted its memos and laws — such as the Bybee/Gonzales “torture memo” and the Military Commissions Act of 2006 — with a keen eye to seeking indemnification of its own guilt regarding having committed evident crimes, because those involved know quite well that acts committed could be criminal acts. (An historical note worth mentioning, when we consider how hyperalert the Bush White House has been to the issue of seeking retroactively to protect itself and its subordinates from prosecution for war and other crimes, is that the Nuremberg Trials eventually swept up influential Nazi industrialists such as Fritz Thyssen of IG Farben — who relied on Auschwitz slave labor — and with whom Prescott Bush had collaborated in amassing the Bush family millions; some of the sentences given to those industrialists found guilty in the postwar trials were severe.) For a moment postwar, the legal spotlight was also about to search out and hold accountable the several prominent US investors who had partnered with Nazi industrialists (see the exhaustively documented study of US/Nazi corporate collaboration, IBM and the Holocaust.)


rock on, Naomi.
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Postby brownzeroed » Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:21 pm

Why don't posts like this ever break 100 hits :?
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Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:30 pm

Bush is saying the inquiry doesn't matter anyways because Abu Zubaydah wasn't at Guantanamo at the time of the order..

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/15/ ... index.html
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Postby HMKGrey » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:52 am

Wow, that's two scathingly brilliant pieces from Naomi in a month. She must be really pissed. Love it.

Indicative of the mainstream finally waking up?

I doubt it, but it would be nice!
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Postby blanc » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:24 am

(I'm not a lawyer so this is my best stab at this)
The UK now has an unequal extradition treaty with the US, which basically allows the US to extradite UK nationals without presenting the evidence to support the request to a UK magistrate. The reverse situation does not apply.
How co-incidental this is, when the actors in the US govt are breaking international law.
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Postby StarmanSkye » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:59 am

Rock-oN Naomi inDEED!!!

Damn, but this nation needs to wake up and be ROYALLY PISSED at the top-rung bloodsuckers like Bush, Cheney and Rummy who are clearly implicated in authorizing these horrific abuses -- breaking of jaws, burning hands and backs, dog attacks, assaulting children and women to coerce a father's/husband's/son's 'confession', waterboarding and beatings to death. In fact, because there have been so many deaths from blunt-force trauma, it can be argued that EVERY blunt-force beating is at the very least felonious assault.

And I'm glad to see these reports are beginning to address the issue of at least another dozen prizons in Iraq where abuses and torture were as routine and terrible as at Abu Ghraib. But the Pentagon, White House and complicit Press have avoided every reference to these other sites of America's war crimes. There were also credible reports of women prisoners subjected to terrible abuses that have vanished from the public eye, but that SHOULD be investigated. Also, the hidden role of CIA personnel, including foreigners working on Temp. Duty as well as contractors.

I have a question, maybe somebody can offer some thoughts.

Since the Pentagon and CIA clearly know coerced confessions have little to NO intelligence value, is there another motive to authorizing extreme torture beyond constructing an elaborate 'terrorist-foiling' charade for PR consumption" -- Such as, demonstrating America's official approval for these practices in order to induce its Arab allies in the 'War on Terror' to collude with their own brutal interrogations of prisoners the US places in their hands -- such as Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Kaziristan -- reports of which will undoubtedly antagonize large segments of their citizens who are suspicious about the US's branding of 'terror suspects' or sympathetic to them, turning public anger against their political, military/police and intelligence officials for being a US puppet or doing the US's dirty-work. Thus, the US may exploit increasing public tensions in these nations, as perhaps offering to reward and secure the status-quo (as it has with the Wahabbi Saudi royalty). Or perhaps these nations are simply showing the US their 'loyalty' and trustworthiness, to deflect America's criticism -- IOW, being coerced to join the US in committing war crimes against 'bad' Arabs as a show of solidarity.

There's just GOTTA be more to this formalizing a policy of torture -- Perhaps the answer's as simple as intended to provoke even greater Arab outrage and resistance which the US can manipulate to create the region-wide permanent war the neocon murderous thugs have a hard-on for?

I'm really interested in hearing other's thoughts.
Thanks!
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Postby AlicetheKurious » Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:51 am

StarmanSkye said:

demonstrating America's official approval for these practices in order to induce its Arab allies in the 'War on Terror' to collude with their own brutal interrogations of prisoners the US places in their hands...reports of which will undoubtedly antagonize large segments of their citizens who are suspicious about the US's branding of 'terror suspects' or sympathetic to them;

turning public anger against their political, military/police and intelligence officials for being a US puppet or doing the US's dirty-work;

exploit increasing public tensions in these nations, [the US] perhaps offering to reward and secure the status-quo (as it has with the Wahabbi Saudi royalty);

these nations are simply showing the US their 'loyalty' and trustworthiness, to deflect America's criticism -- IOW, being coerced to join the US in committing war crimes against 'bad' Arabs as a show of solidarity;

Perhaps the answer's as simple as intended to provoke even greater Arab outrage and resistance which the US can manipulate to create the region-wide permanent war the neocon murderous thugs have a hard-on for?


IMO, all of the above, and more: free guinea-pigs for mind-control experiments; de-sensitization of Americans to torture and the dissolution of constitutional guarantees; vindication of the Israeli model of how to deal with untermenschen; on-the-job training for an American version of the SS; terrorizing Americans by holding up these "terrorist suspects" as an example of what can happen to those who don't go along to get along.

I'm sure there are even more benefits for Amerika's eager torturers. Torture ("security") is big business.
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Postby sunny » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:33 am

AlicetheKurious said:

free guinea-pigs for mind-control experiments; de-sensitization of Americans to torture and the dissolution of constitutional guarantees; vindication of the Israeli model of how to deal with untermenschen; on-the-job training for an American version of the SS; terrorizing Americans by holding up these "terrorist suspects" as an example of what can happen to those who don't go along to get along.


Of course. Otherwise, why not just make up the "intelligence" they want out of whole cloth? It is not as if they were above such things. But there is one other reason and that is the further breakdown of the moral standards of the populace. We are all complicit now due to our failure to do everything in our power to stop it. If we will put up with torturing others what won't we put up with? Eventually the most blatant horrors will take place in front of our eyes to people we know, people we love-and what could we do, what could we say that would have any moral authority, to ourselves, our tormenters, or to a Higher Power?

The same goes for any further attacks against innocent countries, including one using nukes. Collectively, we have been deliberately pulled into criminal complicity with our government. For the same reason, the entire German populace was blamed for the actions of Hitler even tho there were many individuals who resisted in various ways, and others who lived lives of quiet desperation hating what was going on.

And therein lies the value of propaganda, which makes large swaths of the population believe they are alone in feeling disgusted with official actions. Without propaganda, perhaps a large enough segment of the military would have refused to carry out the orders of the Fuhrer/Bush to throw a big wrench into the works. Without propaganda, perhaps people would have overwhelmed the Gestapo when they came to get one of their neighbors. Without propaganda, large scale general strikes and demonstrations could have put a stop to the whole horrible experiment before it had even begun.

We are being psy-opped and propagandized to death, literally and spiritually.
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Postby theeKultleeder » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:00 am

Starman, I think the torture is a sexual thing. It's like the Id of the military-industrial complex.
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Postby sunny » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:56 am

Supporters of Evil

For numerous reasons that I have explained in detail, the practice of torture is unalloyed evil: see, "Lies in the Service of Evil." Supporting torture or allowing its practice to continue -- allowing it to continue in any manner at all -- is also evil. Some of you may recoil from the term "evil." If you recall what torture is, you should not:
Torture is the deliberate infliction of unbearable agony on a human being -- a human being who is intentionally kept alive precisely so that he will suffer still more and for a longer period of time -- for no justifiable reason. This is the embrace of sadism and cruelty for their own sake, and for no other end whatsoever.
This does not represent "specialized" knowledge available only to purported experts. These are simple and obvious truths, that can be known by any decent human being who devotes an hour or two to consideration of this subject. One would think that would not be too much to require of national leaders and lawmakers.

With regard to the following "news" -- which is not news to anyone who has paid attention for the last six years -- no one has any reason whatsoever to evince the most minimal degree of surprise:
In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

Congressional leaders from both parties would later seize on waterboarding as a symbol of the worst excesses of the Bush administration's counterterrorism effort. The CIA last week admitted that videotape of an interrogation of one of the waterboarded detainees was destroyed in 2005 against the advice of Justice Department and White House officials, provoking allegations that its actions were illegal and the destruction was a coverup.

Yet long before "waterboarding" entered the public discourse, the CIA gave key legislative overseers about 30 private briefings, some of which included descriptions of that technique and other harsh interrogation methods, according to interviews with multiple U.S. officials with firsthand knowledge.

With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).

Individual lawmakers' recollections of the early briefings varied dramatically, but officials present during the meetings described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support. "Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing," said Goss, who chaired the House intelligence committee from 1997 to 2004 and then served as CIA director from 2004 to 2006. "And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement."

People consider such disclosures at this late date to be "news" or to be at all surprising only if they have refused to acknowledge and understand the necessary meaning and implications of the United States' actions in recent years. With regard to torture, the timeline is significantly longer: the U.S. has regularly employed torture for many decades. Most liberals and progressives, together with Democratic apologists generally, prefer to view the Bush administration as "unique" in American history, as representing a profound shift in national policy. None of this is true: these are lies cravenly dishonest apologists tell themselves to justify their otherwise indefensible political allegiances.

I reminded readers recently that I wrote the following last summer, explaining why the Democratic Congress would never impeach any of the major criminals in the Bush administration:

But for the reasons set forth above (and a full case would fill many volumes), the Democrats are not going to impeach any of these criminals, barring events entirely unforeseeable at present. And they will not for one overwhelmingly significant and determinative reason: always with regard to the underlying principles, and frequently with regard to the specifics, the Democrats are implicated in every single crime with which they would charge the members of the administration. The Republicans' crimes are their crimes.

This latest story is but another in an endless series of similar examples that support my judgment.

The leading Democratic presidential contenders have said they reject torture as an official instrument of government policy. In the context of the actions of the Democratic Congress, such claims are contemptibly meaningless:

And no one speaks of repealing the Military Commissions Act. If anyone in Congress actually gave a damn about liberty and civilization on the most basic level, that is what they would discuss, and they would discuss it all the time. For the Military Commissions Act did not simply destroy habeas corpus; it also established the state's use of torture as an acknowledged, acceptable, standardized means of governance. All the Democratic presidential candidates have recently condemned torture as an element of official government policy -- although I am not aware that anyone has asked Hillary Clinton why she has apparently altered her previously expressed approval of a supposedly narrow "exception" to the prohibition against torture, and if she now rejects her own earlier view. But as long as the Military Commissions Act remains the law, all such condemnations are meaningless, and they deserve to be disbelieved. If any of these politicians were seriously opposed to torture, repeal of the Military Commissions Act would be among their very highest priorities.
The Democrats will not repeal the Military Commissions Act.
All of the selective attention and outrage focused on waterboarding is yet another sleight of hand, by means of which the Democrats seek to portray themselves as opposed to the "unique" evil of the Bush administration, while they simultaneously allow, and often encourage, the systematic implementation of evil as national policy to continue unimpeded.

As I have observed, there is no "lesser" evil now, when one understands what the two major parties in fact represent. As for those who still insist that the Democrats represent the only hope for "saving" the U.S. government from "within the system" -- a belief which can be maintained only by denying facts on a massive scale and by blinding oneself to the lessons history teaches repeatedly -- I refer you to this statement from one German, noted in Milton Mayer's, They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-1945, and excerpted in my essay, "Thus the World Was Lost":

"Yes," said my colleague, shaking his head, "the 'excesses' and the 'radicals.' We all opposed them, very quietly. So your two 'little men' thought they must join, as good men, good Germans, even as good Christians, and when enough of them did they would be able to change the party. They would 'bore from within.' 'Big men' told themselves that, too, in the usual sincerity that required them only to abandon one little principle after another, to throw away, little by little, all that was good. I was one of those men.

"You know," he went on, "when men who understand what is happening--the motion, that is, of history, not the reports of single events or developments--when such men do not object or protest, men who do not understand cannot be expected to. How many men would you say understand--in this sense--in America? And when, as the motion of history accelerates and those who don't understand are crazed by fear, as our people were, and made into a great 'patriotic' mob, will they understand then, when they did not before?

"We learned here--I say this freely--to give up trying to make them understand after, oh, the end of 1938, after the night of the synagogue burning and the things that followed it. Even before the war began, men who were teachers, men whose faith in teaching was their whole faith, gave up, seeing that there was no comprehension, no capacity left for comprehension, and the thing must go its course, taking first its victims, then its architects, and then the rest of us to destruction...."

I do not want to be misunderstood on this point, so let me state it as plainly as I can. The time is long since past for every minimally decent American to take a stand: either you are on the side of civilization and humanity, and the irreplaceable, supreme value of an individual human life -- or you are on the side of evil, brutality, torture, sadism, genocidal war, and endless death. The Democrats and the Republicans both stand for Empire, and for the endless horrors already inflicted -- and the endless horrors that still lie in our future. If the Democrats do not repeal the Military Commissions Act or at least try to do so, and if you still support them in the 2008 elections, then you are on the side of all these horrors as well.

If the Democrats do not repeal the Military Commissions Act -- and they will not -- and you support them in 2008, you are supporting evil. To that extent, you are evil yourself.

At this terrible moment in history, we must call things by their proper names. Let the world know where you stand: for life, and the possibility of joy and happiness -- or for death, and cruelty, barbarism and the repetition of horrors that the monsters among us insist on reviving when given the opportunity.

If you choose to support evil and to embody evil yourself, I suggest you follow the vile example of the current administration: do so without apology, and brazenly revel in the evil you choose to inflict on the world. It is far more contemptible -- and, to speak personally, it is sickening beyond my capacity to describe accurately, in significant part because of the complex psychological dishonesties that are required -- to enable evil, while claiming you represent the "moral" and "practical" choice. These are the justifications used by those who made possible the cruelest and most unspeakably horrifying regimes in history, as Mayer's witness and many others attest.

Withdraw your support entirely from those who perpetrate and make excuses for evil. If the refusal to support such people were widespread enough, we still might have a chance. I regard it as the very slightest of chances, one that will almost certainly be destroyed by another significant terrorist attack in the United States -- but it is the only one we have.posted by Arthur Silber at 10:04 AM
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there's another interesting perspective

Postby dqueue » Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:12 pm

At DKos, leveymg has a recent series of diaries suggesting a different hypothesis regarding torture. He argues that torture is not to glean information, but to erase minds (i.e., to obstruct justice and obscure facts...)

The diaries:
TORTURE VIDEO: What the CIA Doesn't Want You to Know
Torture Tapes Weren't The Only Thing Erased by The White House
CIA Detainee Torture, Memory Loss, and the Bush Administration's Falsification of History

They're worth consideration in trying to unravel the threads of torture.
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Re: there's another interesting perspective

Postby theeKultleeder » Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:22 pm

dqueue wrote:At DKos, leveymg has a recent series of diaries suggesting a different hypothesis regarding torture. He argues that torture is not to glean information, but to erase minds (i.e., to obstruct justice and obscure facts...)



Sounds reasonable. Sounds correct!


We need to shut these animals down...
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Postby 8bitagent » Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:57 pm

Well even tho Naomi shills for the Clintons...she has totally come out in support of 9/11 truth...not just a toe, but a whole leg in the water. So that's good.

In other words, if we could witness the drama of manufacturing by torture the many violently coerced “confessions” upon which the whole house of cards of this White House and its hyped “war on terror” rests, it would likely cause us to reopen every investigation, including the most serious ones

I like that

But I believe this may be a second limited hangout under the "well we dont want our image to be worse if we reveal how we torture" limited hangout

I think one of the reasons these tapes were destroyed isnt HOW they got the info(the torture focus), but...WHAT it revealed.

Even a snarky new time article toys with the notion that the terrorists
revealed who they were working for
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 18,00.html
"Do you know who I am? I am the arm, and I sound like this..."-man from another place, twin peaks fire walk with me
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Postby 8bitagent » Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:58 pm

For anyone who doubts Abu Gharib/Gitmo/black sites are part of a mind control mk ultra 2.0 artichoke program, check out the BBC documentary "Crazy Rulers of the World" as well as Sy Hersh's article "Copper Green"
"Do you know who I am? I am the arm, and I sound like this..."-man from another place, twin peaks fire walk with me
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