Peak Oil

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Peak Oil

Yes, it's real.
43
57%
No, it's a scam.
33
43%
 
Total votes : 76

Peak Oil

Postby ninakat » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:12 pm

I'm starting this thread so as to continue the discussion from the thread about Alex Jones' new movie, where the peak oil subject came up (since Jones believes it's a scam). I know this has been debated on and off for a long time here at RI, but I'd really like to see more evidence from those who believe peak oil is a scam.... and to get a sense of where our present day thinking is.
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Postby anothershamus » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:14 pm

I just have to remember the scam of the early 70's to see that it's deja-vu all over again!
)'(
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Postby MASONIC PLOT » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:18 pm

I am personally not sold on it, yet.


BTW, Nina, I was banned at GIM lol, they said my presence had become larger than the forum itself. I guess going after all those racists and homophobes pissed off a few too many members. :lol:

But, yea, Id love to learn more about peak oil, I have done quite a bit of research about it and I am still not convinced of it.
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Postby operator kos » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:40 pm

How can you not believe that oil is a finite resource? It's not a question of if but when. There is another recent thread about a Guardian article saying that global oil production peaked in 2006. Other experts have given us until 2012 or 2020, some as late as 2050. I tend to believe it will be earlier rather than later, but I hope I'm wrong since our society is clearly not prepared for it.

I had become quite disillusioned with AJ before watching his latest movie, and that just locked it in for me. The guy's an ignorant blowhard on environmental issues, which makes me really question the validity of anything else he says.
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Hal Lindsey

Postby vigilant » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:00 pm

Hal Lindsey, a former preacher on the Alaskan pipeline claims to have sat in on the meetings with the biggest oil barons in the world. I don't have the links at the moment but he has videos on the web in which he gives lectures on Peak Oil. He claims it is a scam. The man is pretty damn convincing too. You can find the videos pretty easily if you look.
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a skeptic

Postby vigilant » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:01 pm

Oh, and count me as a skeptic on the Peak Oil poll. I do know it is a finite resource, but I believe there is far more oil than we are being told.
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Postby JoseFreitas » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:33 pm

Peak Oil is not only about oil being a finite resource, rather, it is a particular case of the more general "law" of diminishing returns. It simply says that oil will become more and more difficult to find, and more and more difficult to extract. It simply states that the easiest to find oil was found first, and the easiest to extract was extracted first. And as such it has been verified time and again over the last decades. The curve in new finds has been descending since the 60's and if it hadn't, oil corporations wouldn't be looking in all the godforsaken, under the sea, behind unscalable mountains, places. And individual countries oil fields have peaked regularly, and extraction rates have been going down, with predictable results. And since the entire planet's oil reserves are the sum of individual countries oil reserves, and since these are the sum of individual fields reserves .... well, you get the picture.

It simply says that oil will be become more and more expensive and difficult to get. Period. There's lots of oil, and even Peak Oil theorists don't think it will ever run out. And the theory is also a lot about demand, not just supply. Demand is climbing faster than supply can provide, and according to the theory, faster than it will ever be able to supply, thus price will go up and will never come down. The theory has lots of paralells in other resources which have been shown to behave in the same way (see Ugo Bardi, How General is the Hubbert Curve, http://www.cge.uevora.pt/aspo2005/absco ... _Bardi.pdf), and to date the facts seem to fit this theory better than they fit other theories.

The facts from other theories seem to be based on lots of "insider" information and seem to run counter to most actual events, including the interests of the major oil companies. Thus, I assign a much higher probability to the Peak Oil theory than to others. Maybe I don't think it's the be-all, end-all, but still...
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Postby theeKultleeder » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:46 pm

Hal Lindsey is an end-times profiteer, a Christian conspiracy theorist. He has been making money off of the paranoid believer set for decades.

Lindsey hosted International Intelligence Briefing on the Trinity Broadcasting Network and serves on the executive board of Christian Voice (USA). Lindsey also promotes theories regarding either the USSR or the European Union being the home of the Antichrist and describes liberals as an "enemy that hides in the shadows, doesn't play by any of the rules, and is determined to use any means to bring about our literal annihilation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Lindsey


OKAY! :twisted:
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Postby Jeff » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:55 pm

Just wondering what the correlation might be between those who believe Peak Oil is a scam and Libertarians/Ron Paul supporters.
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Postby John E. Nemo » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:25 pm

The answer to the koan is "Mu."

It is irrelevant whether or not the oil will physically run out.

Women used to dye their hair black by combing it with lead combs.
They stopped because they finally realized how unhealthy it was.
This will happen with oil, as it has with lead piping, and cooking with aluminam foil and/or Teflon.

In the meantime, no matter what happens to the production of oil, Elites will control it, oil will continue to pollute the air and the sale of it will continue to fund corrupt oil billionaires and oppressive regimes that discriminate against women, torture prisoners, conduct public executions, amputate limbs as a punishment, and ban freedom of expression, assembly and religion.

IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT, BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO..

Image


P.S. We could be making plastic and oil from hemp on a mass scale, but we don't... because you, the consumer, have not demanded it and/or because you're also too lazy to try and change things.
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"We could be making plastic and oil from hemp"

Postby slow_dazzle » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:11 pm

Can you tell me what the EROEI (energy return on energy invested) is for hemp by-products John?

I'm not being provocative nor am I being snarky. I studied physics for several years at school and my job requires a good knowledge of energy issues. If the EROEI is less than 1:1 then hemp is a net energy drain.
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oil

Postby vigilant » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:27 pm

I can agree that there are many benefits of not being a petroleum based society. But...once a society is constructed around a certain paradigm, such as a petroleum culture, changing the paradigm, without wrecking the economy completely, would take decades. I just don't see any quick transfer to another energy source as viable or possible, however unfortunate that may be. As for bicycles the same applies. This society has been constructed around the premise of workers being able to transport themselves long distances quickly. It would be impossible for the majority of people to suddenly transfer their mode of travel to a bicycle.
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Postby StarmanSkye » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:19 pm

If Peak Oil were a scam, it's hard to understand why the Bush Admin. and oil companies have been so keen to discredit the weight of scientific evidence pointing to Global Warming. The Bush Admin. has exerted enormous pressure on Federal Agency scientists and experts to censor all information about research and studies that affirm Global Warming is a very serious, real issue -- while oil companies have funded scientists, publications and school programs that repudiate Global Warming or otherwise confound the theory, making it appear far more controversial and subject to 'debate' than it really is. The simplest way to explain this is the Bush Admin. and oil industry have a vested interest in preventing widespread conservation measures and development/use of alternative energy sources, so as to discourage large infrastructure investments in alternatives and to keep oil-use high, and increasing.

Admittedly, this is very circumstantial evidence of special interest disguising the validity of Global Warming with implication for Peak Oil, but that's in addition to the evidence that there are very real limits for recoverable oil supplies that have serious implications for our industrialized world where oil-use trends are increasing. As another example of obstacles to increased efficiency being put in-place to discourage conservation, the following article shows how rules and laws severely inhibit American consumer choices from buying high-efficiency low-pollution cars in some 42 states. This reveals the influence of the oil lobby in limiting our access to relatively efficient, non-polluting cars.

So the technology is available, not just with cars but with solar and wind energy systems that could have a large impact on divesting our heavy dependency on oil supplies. Why is there so much pressure being applied to keep Americans addicted to oil, in light of available options?

And too, the US's heavy foreign policy/military investment in the Middle East also argues strongly that oil is a crucially limited resource.
*****
Dirty Secret: Green Cars Automakers Won't Sell You 2007-09-01,
msn.com http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.asp ... id=4024974


On a recent run from Boston to Cape Cod, I test drove the 2008 Honda
Accord, the latest version of this family favorite. The new Accord
boasts an environmental first: a six-cylinder gasoline engine that's
cleaner than many hybrid systems. There's only one catch: You can't
actually buy this ultra-green Accord, or the four-cylinder version
that also produces near-zero pollution. That is, unless you live
in California, New York or six other northeast states that follow
California's tougher pollution rules. Only there can you buy this
Accord, or the roughly two dozen other models that meet so-called
Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle standards, PZEV for short. Not only
can't you buy one, but the government says it's currently illegal
for automakers to sell these green cars outside of the special
states. Under terms of the Clean Air Act - in the kind of delicious
irony only our government can pull off - anyone (dealer, consumer,
automaker) involved in an out-of-bounds PZEV sale could
be subject to civil fines of up to $27,500. Volvo sent its dealers
a memo alerting them to this fact, noting that its greenest S40 and
V50 models were only for the special states. So, just how green is
a PZEV machine? Well, if you just cut your lawn with a gas mower,
congratulations, you just put out more pollution in one hour than
these cars do in 2,000 miles of driving. Grill a single juicy burger,
and you've cooked up the same hydrocarbon emissions as a three-hour
drive in a Ford Focus PZEV. As the California Air Resources Board
has noted, the tailpipe emissions of these cars can be cleaner than
the outside air in smoggy cities. PZEV models are already available
from Toyota, Ford, Honda, GM, Subaru, Volvo and VW. But chances
are, you've never heard of them.


Note: For many exciting articles about new, efficient and clean
energy inventions, click here.
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scams

Postby vigilant » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:36 pm

StarmanSkye wrote:

If Peak Oil were a scam, it's hard to understand why the Bush Admin. and oil companies have been so keen to discredit the weight of scientific evidence pointing to Global Warming. The Bush Admin. has exerted enormous pressure on Federal Agency scientists and experts to censor all information about research and studies that affirm Global Warming is a very serious, real issue --


Just as Peak Oil scammers can make money of Peak Oil, so too can Global Warming scammers make money from bogus "green taxes".

One of the premier think tanks in the world "The Club of Rome", in their book "The First Global Revolution" written years ago, named Global Warming by name as a way to socially engineer our society. The Club of Rome stated...


"In a report titled "The First Global Revolution" (1991) published by the Club of Rome, a globalist think tank, we find the following statement: "In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill.... All these dangers are caused by human intervention... The real enemy, then, is humanity itself."

This scam was thought up years ago as a reason to push for Globalization and a one world government. Doing good homework makes that apparent.

Here is another quote by the globalists...


[/quote]"Richard Haass, the current president of the Council on Foreign Relations, stated in his article "State sovereignty must be altered in globalized era," that a system of world government must be created and sovereignty eliminated in order to fight global warming, as well as terrorism. "Moreover, states must be prepared to cede some sovereignty to world bodies if the international system is to function," says Haass. "Globalization thus implies that sovereignty is not only becoming weaker in reality, but that it needs to become weaker. States would be wise to weaken sovereignty in order to protect themselves..."
[/quote]


Again a fight for global government using Global warming as the excuse. This is transparent as glass for those with eyes to see...

"States would be wise to weaken their sovereignty in order to protect themselves"....
How cryptic is that? I read that as....go along with us, or we kick your ass, plain and simple.
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Postby theeKultleeder » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:14 pm

There was an awareness of environmental issues in the 90's. Remember CFC's and the hole in the ozone layer?

I wonder though, do you believe it is all a scam and the environment is just dandy? Or do you believe that deadly-real environmental issues are being hijacked by vested interests?

Aside from Bible prophecy and notions of the anti-Christ and all that, what are the primary dangers of international governing bodies? The UN is often targeted by rightist Christians, but the fact is if international treaties had been upheld as law by the US guv'mint, we would not be in Iraq now. It seems to me Biblical beliefs based on shaky prophetic interpretations are extremely useful for the powers-that-be, the elites, or whatever, in manufacturing agreement with state-corporate goals.

I have the feeling that some form of international governance is inevitable. It could even be a good thing. International solidarity among disparate social justice movements might be a step in the direction of individual sovereignty and democratic self-rule in a "one world" world. It is after all, one world, and communications and travel technology is making neighbors out of us all.
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