DMT - what?

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Re: DMT - what?

Postby WakeUpAndLive » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:51 pm

wordspeak2 wrote:And btw, regarding MDMA- a lovely compliment to the real powerful substances like DMT and mushrooms- I would disagree with the assertion that there's not a lot of clean stuff out there. There's actually tons of MDMA out there, though even more misinformation about it. The pre-cursors for it are easy to obtain, in Europe, especially. Of course, there's a lot of dirty stuff, too. The little pills are notorious for being dirty. The powder is more often clean- at least, in the white hippy scene. If you're poor in the city it's harder to get clean stuff for sure. But there's tons of real MDMA out there, believe me- we usually call it "molly," for "the molecule." And a Harvard study just revealed a month ago that MDMA has no neurotoxicity- the first study of its kind. http://www.maps.org/media/view/new_stud ... asy_users/ But I could have told you that- no neurotoxicity for me in hundreds of rolls. Now do a genuine neurotoxicity study on alcohol and caffeine....


I should have been clear, most of the stuff we see out on the west coast is in pill form, very few can get the powder, you gotta know someone. Otherwise you'll be stuck with some blue ferrari's or pink elephants, which most makers stamp their product with so you can go back if you like it. Going to a rave will make this quite clear...it is damn rare unless you are in the scene and KNOW people. I'm surprised about the neurotoxicity, especially since that has been a common theme for quite a while. Does the article say anything about spinal fluid and spinal disk damage??


Also this got me thinking randomly, does anyone know if there have been tests done which show chemicals released in the brain by a Meditating Monk? I wonder if DMT is involved.
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby wordspeak2 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:53 pm

And re near-death experiences,
"I find the DMT/NDE theory problematic for one major reason: NDEs are almost always described as very lucid, realer-than-real, and the imagery reported is generally very realistic,"
ProfessorPan, I disagree with you, because I had one of these NDE's myself on DMT, and it was by far the most intense experience of my entire life. I regret it- I smoked too much DMT in too short of a period of time- but when I came down I was fine. But I really, really, really thought I was dead for a few minutes. Realer-than-real it was. For a few minutes... we won't make that mistake again... `this isn't shit to fool around with. There's a major life and death theme with it. Perhaps DMT is a bridge between life and after-life. Perhaps it's a bridge between all such dimensions. I sure don't know exactly. All I know is if the world of DMT consciousness exploration is Mt. Everest humankind has collectively hiked maybe the first hundred yards. What have we got to lose in exploring this vast frontier at this point in history? Nothing. What have we got to lose in ignoring it? Everything.

Btw, there is a good chat board with people sharing their DMT experiences, called the DMT Nexus.
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby wordspeak2 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:04 pm

WakeupandLive- Yeah, I hear you on the ecstasy pills. I should have a broader perspective... I happen to be in a really positive scene. There *is* plenty of clean MDMA out there, and you can get it easily festivals, but otherwise you do have to know people. The majority of those pills are dirty. Some are dirty with stuff that's not so bad (like caffeine), but others are bad. Some have no MDMA at all. There are test kits out there you can buy pretty cheaply. Also, the web site www.ecstasydata.org documents different pills and what's actually in them, but I'm not sure how often the site's updated.

Regarding the lack of neurotoxicity I'm not at all joking that I can tell it's perfectly clean stuff from having taking it a lot. It helped me open up my third eye, fix my health and restore a love for life that had been damaged. There was a lot of media attention to ecstasy supposedly causing brain damage, but this was literally on the credibility level of "weed makes you pick up an axe and kill your mother." The prime study referenced was one in which it was later determined that the substance studied wasn't actually MDMA at all, but- meth! Whoops! I couldn't make this shit up. Check out the Peter Jennings segment called "Ecstasy Rising." There were some other studies, but none isolated MDMA *by itself.* In other words, if you're getting dirty-ass pills and drink alcohol with it you might get some damage. So what the hell does that tell us. So hence the need for this new study, which the most thorough, and showed very conclusively no toxicity. Yeah, no shit. Now legalize it for therapy. It would be a whole new world out there....
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby WakeUpAndLive » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:21 pm

wordspeak2 wrote:Regarding the lack of neurotoxicity I'm not at all joking that I can tell it's perfectly clean stuff from having taking it a lot. It helped me open up my third eye, fix my health and restore a love for life that had been damaged. There was a lot of media attention to ecstasy supposedly causing brain damage, but this was literally on the credibility level of "weed makes you pick up an axe and kill your mother." The prime study referenced was one in which it was later determined that the substance studied wasn't actually MDMA at all, but- meth! Whoops! I couldn't make this shit up. Check out the Peter Jennings segment called "Ecstasy Rising." There were some other studies, but none isolated MDMA *by itself.* In other words, if you're getting dirty-ass pills and drink alcohol with it you might get some damage. So what the hell does that tell us. So hence the need for this new study, which the most thorough, and showed very conclusively no toxicity. Yeah, no shit. Now legalize it for therapy. It would be a whole new world out there....


Very interesting...reminds me of the weed experiment where they literally suffocated rats with smoke and then said weed kills brain cells, when in actuality it was lack of oxygen. So, leave it to the people testing to "accidentally" use a meth substance...I don't do either drug, but meth is really nasty stuff compared to E. The fact that even to me, who has a background in the scene, find it difficult to get pure makes it hard to believe any testing or anecdotal results now that I've become aware of this first one. I'm almost glad they made weed out to be so horrible, because when people realize it isn't they have a sort of awakening.
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby nathan28 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:50 pm

professorpan wrote:DMT is rarely seen except among the entheogentsia, i.e. the psychedelic underground community. Real MDMA is not rare in the community,


See, I don't get this though I won't deny it. DMT is a simple acid-base extraction from any plant substance. MDMA has to be synthesized, and if I understand correctly it's a methamphetamine so you're probably going to end up on a gov't watch list.

professorpan wrote:I find the DMT/NDE theory problematic for one major reason: NDEs are almost always described as very lucid, realer-than-real, and the imagery reported is generally very realistic (tunnel, angelic beings, departed loved one, bright light, life review) while DMT produces absolutely bizarre and brain-bendingly weird imagery. Dying people don't see the McKenna-esque self-dribbling jeweled basketball elves blowing bubbles of concretized language. They see Jesus and Uncle Timmy and Granny.


I didn't mean to conflate the near-death thing with DMT. I mean that the after-the-fact description people give is that they "thought they were dead", as a metaphor that overlays the experience, which isn't the same as white light and seeing religious figures or your old pets or a dog or your entire life flashing before your eyes. The other thing I hear/know of people (more than one or two) saying is that DMT and to a lesser extent mescaline make you feel like you're "traveling", but not in the sense of going somewhere, but again, a sort of metaphor.

I agree w/ WU&L on Salvia. It's like you opened a damn portal into another dimension and it colonized every damn thing in the blink of an eye. Also I always heard "songs" in my head. It's kind of like unbuckling everything from everything.
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby WakeUpAndLive » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:57 pm

nathan28 wrote:
professorpan wrote:DMT is rarely seen except among the entheogentsia, i.e. the psychedelic underground community. Real MDMA is not rare in the community,


See, I don't get this though I won't deny it. DMT is a simple acid-base extraction from any plant substance. MDMA has to be synthesized, and if I understand correctly it's a methamphetamine so you're probably going to end up on a gov't watch list.


Being a part of a website as such, wouldn't you say its a little late for that?
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby Gnomad » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:42 pm

norton ash wrote:Thanks for that, Nathan. ^^

Back in the 80's salvia was known and generally dismissed as a wild little trip. But the lay-stoner perception was that it must be bad for your brain because of the head rush feeling followed by the shambling, stuporous after-effect-- which led people to think that there might be a toxic-asphyxia thing going on like huffing glue or solvents, or smoke inhalation.

That was the word on Salvia back then. The totally unscientific consensus among the dilettante Canadian university stoners I knew was that it wasn't that much fun, and might give you brain or organ damage.


I am not aware of any such scientific reports of any damage from salvia use, to brains or organs. On the other hand, chewed leaves and salvia tea seem to increase urination, and have traditionally been used for some internal ailments.

Also, when you use the plant unextracted, ie. the natural leaves chewed or vaporized/smoked, you really can't take too much the same way as with extracts. I have never walked around the way you describe, and don't know others who tend to do that. I do know it is one some people report online, but usually with large doses and such.

I tend to lie down eyes closed or sit in a good position (like on your legs, spine straight).

Chewing on fresh leaves is the best, though, and gives you far more time than inhalation.
Even better, first chew, then vaporize some simple dried leaves. Works and is more gentle.

Grow your own plants. It is not a very hard plant to care for, just a little demanding. But in fair climates, it will flourish outside and needs little light inside, ie. fluorescent lights will do just fine. Cuttings are sold, and of course one can always meet a person who can give you one.

It is definitely not recreational, but my wager is on "it can be good for you", very much like ayahuasca. Salvia makes it very easy to let go of language-bound thinking, and let you go places when you have stopped talking to yourself to tell you how the world is. There is that moment, instant of transformation, and there it is. A crack in the world and slip through.
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby wordspeak2 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:56 am

Interesting on salvia. I haven't done it much. There's something that turns me off from it, including all the negative reports you hear, and I know that the real exploration is in the tryptamines, namely mushrooms and DMT, but I would like to try salvia again.

Re: "MDMA has to be synthesized, and if I understand correctly it's a methamphetamine so you're probably going to end up on a gov't watch list."
Well, as I understand it it's chemically similar to a methamphetamine (hence the name), but it's quite different, and thus a whole new drug category- "empathogen"- was made up to describe it. Certainly, its effect is *completely* different from a traditional methamphetamine.
And regarding production of it- I have a friend familiar with such things (though she doesn't produce it herself!)... first of all, MDMA doesn't have to be synthesized; it can be extracted from sassafrass root, though that's rare. And there are a lot of precursors which can lead a chemist to producing MDMA. Since they're quite numerous and have various other uses than MDMA production they're not watched with really high scrutiny, apparently especially in Europe. That's definitely where a lot of the ecstasy comes from. There are even various cutting-edge techniques for making the stuff; people discuss these subjects on rogue online chat boards. There were a couple famous books on MDMA production that a guy wrote from prison; I'm blanking out on the names, though. Basically, though, the cat is out of the bag on it, and the DEA and its international allies have trouble keeping up. Which is very different from LSD production, which is highly centralized, i.e. rare because the pre-cursors are virtually impossible to get, and if you go anywhere near such compounds you'll get a knock on your door within ten minutes. Which is why a lot of the major acid producers have been insiders.
Anyway, though, the primary reason there are so many impure or altogether phony "ecstasy" pills out there is not a lack of pure MDMA, but just the economics; it's cheaper to load your pills with other crap and people will still feel dramatically altered, and since many have never had pure MDMA they don't know the difference. But again, go to any hippy festival, and the place is loaded with grams of "molly" selling for 80-100 bucks, ounces for 11-14 hundred, all legit. But acid and mushrooms is more rare these rare. Which one might find odd regarding the former, since any jane or joe can legally buy mushroom spores and grow it in a basement. But the economics aren't such that's it's very profitable. Unfortunately. Fuck capitalism. What I'd love to see is some of the socialist-leaning countries leading the way on psychedelic therapy studies. Instead, we have a random assortment of countries where MAPS is having success getting official studies approved- Israel and Jordan are hosting MDMA for PTSD studies; the U.S. finally has some major studies going on, despite resistance from NIDA (the FDA, to its credit, has largely prioritized science over politics); Switzerland has some going. How about a government that allows these studies en masse, that says, "Look, the western establishment was tragically wrong forty years ago in banning psychedelic research, and if we're going to move forward in the right direction as a society and species we better start putting sincere scientific effort into studying these compounds and responsibly integrating them into our society." That's what I'm talking about.
The only good news is this stuff is growing slowly but surely, and MDMA therapy in particular has gotten a lot of positive mainstream press, including the Wash Post and- even biggere- a cover article in Oprah's magazine this year!
http://www.oprah.com/health/PTSD-and-MD ... f-Ecstasy/
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby elfismiles » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:21 am

Last week I was hanging out and catching up with a friend who was very close friends with McKenna - he produced the ALIEN DREAMTIME psychedelic video featuring Terence:

http://www.google.com/search?q=alien+dreamtime+mckenna

Part 1 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru0W3x9EEDM

Full Video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1948678069

He is nearing completion of a new similar psychedelic video featuring never before seen/heard McKenna recordings:

Lux McKenna
experiments with Terence McKenna

http://luxmckenna.com/Motion Pictures/motionpictures.html


He had brought over a copy of the previously mentioned DMT DVD which is produced by Austin folks - can't wait to meet them and talk about these developments...

Anyway, my friend also mentioned that, whereas in times past DMT was scarce and very hard to come by, it is now all over the place. He said he'd recently been to parties where folks were just giving the stuff away - these were not raves. He said there were kids on the periphery of one of the parties sitting around doint DMT and falling over - not having been told how to properly use it.

This always seems to happen and having these things be illegal just perpetuates this cycle of kids using things recreationally that were never intended for such. Though, given the incredibly short length of "intoxication" with DMT and the apparent lack of negative side-effects ... I've often heard it described as a 15-minute spiritual journey for the workaday world's breaktime.
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby norton ash » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:35 am

^^ Thanks for the info.

Maybe DMT really is becoming widely available.

And maybe it's part of our evolution, with the kids intuiting that they're going to need escape velocity, another dimension.

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Re: DMT - what?

Postby wordspeak2 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:49 pm

Thanks, Elfismiles! I love "Alien Dreamtime"! Props to your friend. I'm having trouble watching videos on my computer right now... but could you please post the whole new video these folks are working on when it's done? I look forward to that.

"He said there were kids on the periphery of one of the parties sitting around doint DMT and falling over - not having been told how to properly use it."

Yes, DMT is now available on the commercial black market, where it wasn't just a few years ago, and, as well, lots of amateurs are producing it (of varying quality) by extracting from MHB. However, this is *not shit to fool around with,* and "partying" with it could do some serious damage. I don't mean physically, but psychically... I mean, I can only imagine. And on top of that there are plenty of well-intentioned people who just don't know how to do it; someone should make an instruction guide. Here it is: 1. Be in quiet, safe, dark place. Ideally, have a friend sit with you. Have a clear head, positive attitude and an empty stomach. Do not mix with alcohol, caffeine, sugar, etc. 2.YOU HAVE TO VAPORIZE IT. IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS LOOK IT UP. 3.Get as much of the vapor in your lungs as possible. Repeat: as much as possible. Then hold it for as long as you can without coughing. Actually do this seriously. This means probably 2-3 humongous hits from a little DMT vaporizer pipe (good luck finding one, or buy a commercial vaporizer). McKenna was famous for saying, "Take the third hit!" If you really get two huge ones in, in my experience you may not pull off a third. But try! As much as you can get in you! This stuff is your friend. Go for it.

Not complicated, but essential.

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Something like that. The McKennas like/d to question: "Which mushroom will it be that humankind chooses at the end of modern history- Wasson's psychedelic mushroom of salvation and an archaic revival, or the nuclear mushroom cloud, of destruction?" This week that question becomes even more acute. I'm no 2012 theorist, but one must admit- things are coming to a head here.
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby TheDuke » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:30 am

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/steps ... 1c0lh.html


"This is a stupid, broad-brush, knee-jerk piece of legislation made by people who have absolutely no idea of botany and who have done no research into the incredible spectrum of plants that would be affected by it," said Robyn Francis, a permaculture expert and author.

Many of the critics argue the schedule is framed too widely, particularly where it seeks to ban any plant containing Dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, a psychedelic drug used in rituals by some South American tribes.

DMT occurs in small quantities in a vast number of plants, particularly wattles, but it is far from clear which individual species are affected.

"There is not a lot of scientific evidence out there on what plants contain nasties such as DMT," said Anthony Kachenko, the national environmental and technical policy manager at Nursery and Garden Industry Australia.

"If they are wanting us to pinpoint what plants to remove from sale or from gardens or cultivation, we wouldn't know where to start.''
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:50 pm

For anyone interested, may I suugest "Ayahuasca Analogues: Pangaen Entheogens' by Jonathan Ott.

It is a slim, unfortunately hard-to-find volume, but has real data on DMT-containing plants, MAO-inhibiting plants and basic chemical interactions. It's slanted more towards a chemisty background, but is helpful to others if one has the ability to measure doseage, etc.
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:34 am

Reminded of how awe-inspiring the experience was just last night. Language does it no justice: it's sideways to sideways.

As my familiarity with the space grows, though, I have a harder time taking "clockwork elf" stuff seriously -- the nature of the ride changes radically every time for me and reducing what happens to a discrete "You" communicating with a discrete "Other" ... again, language does it no justice.

It's telling that an early description would become so defining later on, that's The Curse of the Greys, right? Lam Syndrome, medically speaking. I guess it's just a common shorthand so it's easier to socialize about.

Myself, each time I give it a shot, I am encouraged to talk about it less and less...you know?
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Re: DMT - what?

Postby undead » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:02 am

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Myself, each time I give it a shot, I am encouraged to talk about it less and less...you know?


Yes. Personally after a few definitive experiences I don't take it any more, because I decided that ayahuasca is preferable, at least in my case because of health issues. To me the main point of DMT was moving away from a strictly secular materialist worldview. I started practicing yoga after my first out of body experience on DMT and have since. The few times I smoked it was so intense I never feel the need to any more. It really isn't something you would consider a fun time if you knew how serious it can be. I am increasingly convinced that along with Salvia the traditional preparation of tea is preferable and that the concentrated extract is inferior and limited. Not to say that it is without value, but not quite as healing and beneficial as the traditional experience.

I agree about the "machine elves". It is almost a cliche now, as a way of people deciding that they went far enough. For me they more often appeared as the "self dribbling basketballs" to use another Terence phrase. I think that the main value of smoking it is to understand that there is much more to reality than you thought was possible. Once you understand that then a whole new realm of possibilities becomes available.
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