The Liberals Thread

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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Morty » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:37 am

An apology is called for. I was stone cold sober when I missed the talk of a new title for this thread, but miss it I did. I missed reading the bottom half of a page, and was just riffing on "what would we call liberals if we were to stop calling them liberals?" when I made my recent inspired contribution. So I'm sorry for posting without understanding the full context of the conversation.

This subject (liberals, not alternative names for liberals or threads about liberals) is close to my heart, and I've been meaning to devote some time to composing a serious response to it in this thread, but other things have been getting in the way of late. The central point I would make is that there isn't necessarily that much wrong with liberalism as a philosophy - no more than any other school on average, at least - but today's liberals on the ground, in contrast, are seriously flawed.

They're lazy, they're self-indulgent, they're hypocrites, they're duplicitous. (A lot like me, but I'm not the one under the microscope here.) They fall short of the liberal ideal.

American liberals aren't allowed to forgive without redress the American state its transgressions. (Ditto for everywhere else.) But they do. Nay, they treat it as if there were nothing to forgive, more often than not because they are completely unaware of, or completely fail to recognise the transgression. So much so, they'll vote for Hillary Clinton and become outraged when she loses the election. (And the same criticism applies to "leftists" also, of course.)

Just because people are never dragged away and thrown in jail for lengthy stretches of time doesn't mean that commensurate crimes weren't committed.

Anyway, .
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby bks » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:02 am

Morty:

the central point I would make is that there isn't necessarily that much wrong with liberalism as a philosophy - no more than any other school on average, at least - but today's liberals on the ground, in contrast, are seriously flawed.


There's much wrong. Two observations to begin:

Liberalism in the US case, at its very core, is a strategy of social management: it seeks to accommodate the unjust demands placed on the working classes by the capitalist ruling class. It does this by spreading resources in a fashion that addresses (always inadequately) the social ills produced by the ruling philosophy, while simultaneously ignoring/denying the necessity that the brutality of the ruling philosophy will produce those ills. From a Liberal perspective problems in the society arise from errors of governance, never from central assumptions of governance, never from the basic illegitimacy of the system (e.g. some of its members happen to live off the surplus value of the labor of others). Social problems can therefore be corrected by the right intervention by the right expert etc. etc.

The stance it takes toward reform is that citizen groups should petition the legitimate rulers of the society to address grievances. While it never demands revolution or deep structural change, since that it assumed to be outside the sphere of possible needed reforms, Liberalism may well co-opt the language of revolution when needed or seek to disguise its core orientation.

2. Classical Liberalism prizes individual autonomy over other social values (in this vein, conservatives are also liberals, as are libertarians), but it has a bug in the program that also permits it to pursue forms of dominance by virtue of enacting an "emergency" or "exception". Once enacted these exceptions tend to become entrenched and proliferate. They also get aestheticized and acceleration can happen really quickly. So can backlash.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:19 pm

.

“The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy.” @realDonaldTrump, 6 November 2012

"We can’t let this happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty. Our nation is totally divided!"
@realDonaldTrump, 7 November 2012

CBS News: "In several tweets he later deleted, Trump wondered how Obama won even though Republican nominee Mitt Romney had more votes (though in the end, Obama won the popular vote as well)." Note: Not "in the end" - Obama was clearly ahead in popular vote and electoral votes on election night.

“He lost the popular vote by a lot and won the election,” Trump tweeted. “We should have a revolution in this country!”

Story:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trum ... weetstorm/

Screen shot including deleted messages on Twitter from 2012:
http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/intel ... 0.h473.jpg

First Twitter message above:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 6504494082

.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby 8bitagent » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:44 pm

Yeah, there is no short of irony and hypocrisy when it comes to Donnie and the tea party-turned-trumpeters.

But many are wondering that if the reaction to Hillary losing is calling for an illegal cancellation of the results, mass protests, some riots,
talk of sesession, and assassination...if say a progressive were to win 2020 or 2024...the right would have just as much a right to
act as many on the left have the past few days. I saw a great cartoon of a Cleveland Indians fan saying the results should be nullified
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby tapitsbo » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:56 pm

Uncanny how closely "liberal" overlaps with "somehow at all invested in the formal procedural institutions of America"

Hence the opposition from what used to be that "far" left and right that are now gobbling up most of what stood between them - an inevitable step at this point
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby slomo » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:15 pm

Another hypocrisy is the pro-Clinton camp peseverating on the EC when just months before superdelegates were totes OK.

I know many (if not most) members of RI would have preferred Sanders over Clinton, so I may be preaching to the choir here. But still...

Re: liberalism, I would probably count myself in that more centrist camp. It's not that I don't think change is badly needed, and that I don't think the current hierarchies are fundamentally unjust. But I am also sufficiently a student of history to know what goes wrong when radically destabilizing change happens too quickly. A slow but steady move in a more socialist direction (a la Sanders) would have been best for the country. Sadly that is no longer possible in the short term.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Morty » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:22 pm

Open Letter to American Liberals
by Thomas S. Harrington, via Common Dreams

I would love to share, my liberal friend, in your sense of incredulity about the election of Donald Trump to the presidency of United States. I would love to stand with you in the sense of woundedness that, while certainly painful up front, carries with it the secondary compensation of a warm and nurturing solidarity. I would love to sit with you and fulminate in righteous anger about the unparalleled vulgarity and cruelty of Trump and his followers.

As much as I’d like to do these things, I won’t. Why?

Because I know you, perhaps better than you even dare to know yourself. I know you well because I have watched you with great and detailed care over the last three decades and have learned, sadly, that you are as much if not more about image and self-regard as any of the laudable values you claim to represent.

I have watched as you accommodated yourself to most of the retrograde social forces you claim to abhor. I have seen you be almost completely silent before the world’s greatest evil, unprovoked war, going so far as to embrace as your presidential candidate this year a person who cold-bloodedly carried out the complete destruction of Libya, a real country with real people who love their children like you and me, in order—as the Podesta emails make clear—to further her personal political ambitions.

I watched as you stood silent before this same person’s perverse on-camera celebration of the murder by way of a bayonet thrust to the anus of the leader of that once sovereign country, and before the tens of thousand of deaths, and hundreds of thousands of refugees, that war provoked.

I watched during the last eight years as you sought refuge in the evanescent qualities of skin color and smooth speechmaking so as to not to confront the fact that your “liberal” president was almost totally lacking in actionable convictions regarding the values you claim to be about.

I watched as you didn’t say a peep as he bailed out bankers, pursued whistleblowers and deported desperate and downtrodden immigrants in heretofore unimaginable numbers.

And I didn’t hear the slightest complaint (unlike those supposedly stupid and primitive libertarians) as he arrogated to himself the right to kill American citizens in cold blood as he and he alone deemed fit.

I monitored you as you not only completely normalized Israel’s methodical erasure of the Palestinian people and their culture, but made cheering enthusiastically for this campaign of savagery the ultimate litmus test for social and political respectability within your ranks.

I watched as you breezily dispatched the memories of the millions of innocent people destroyed by U.S. military aggression around the world and damaged police brutality here at home in order to slavishly imitate the unceasing orgy of uniform worship set in motion by the right and its media auxiliaries in the wake of September 11th, 2001.

In short, since 1992, I have watched as you have transformed a current of social thought once rooted in that most basic an necessary human sentiment—empathy—into a badge of cultural and educational superiority. And because feeling good about yourself was much more important to you than actually helping the afflicted, you signed off, in greater or lesser measure to almost all of the life-sapping and dignity-robbing measures of the authoritarian right.

And now you want me to share in your sense of shock and incredulity?

No, thanks, I’ll save my tears for all of the people, ideas and programs you heedlessly abandoned along the road to this day.

Thomas S. Harrington is a professor of Hispanic Studies at Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut and the author of the recently published book, Livin’ la Vida Barroca: American Culture in a Time of Imperial Orthodoxies.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby slomo » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:25 pm

^^^^^ Bbbut.... Obama was for gay marriage!!
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:33 pm

Very eloquent and true of so many, but isn't it convenient to address a theoretical label without ever having to identify even one?
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I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby guruilla » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:39 pm

bks wrote:Liberalism in the US case, at its very core, is a strategy of social management: it seeks to accommodate the unjust demands placed on the working classes by the capitalist ruling class. It does this by spreading resources in a fashion that addresses (always inadequately) the social ills produced by the ruling philosophy, while simultaneously ignoring/denying the necessity that the brutality of the ruling philosophy will produce those ills. From a Liberal perspective problems in the society arise from errors of governance, never from central assumptions of governance, never from the basic illegitimacy of the system (e.g. some of its members happen to live off the surplus value of the labor of others). Social problems can therefore be corrected by the right intervention by the right expert etc. etc.

The stance it takes toward reform is that citizen groups should petition the legitimate rulers of the society to address grievances. While it never demands revolution or deep structural change, since that it assumed to be outside the sphere of possible needed reforms, Liberalism may well co-opt the language of revolution when needed or seek to disguise its core orientation.

2. Classical Liberalism prizes individual autonomy over other social values (in this vein, conservatives are also liberals, as are libertarians), but it has a bug in the program that also permits it to pursue forms of dominance by virtue of enacting an "emergency" or "exception". Once enacted these exceptions tend to become entrenched and proliferate. They also get aestheticized and acceleration can happen really quickly. So can backlash.

Thanks for that, seemed to cut through a lot of the static, for me anyway.

I haven’t really been keeping up on this thread, but hopefully the relevance of the below quote will be somewhat apparent, regarding some of the foundational problems with liberalism as it relates to bureaucracy and then to language, which after all is what we’re using here.

Just winging it now but might there be a historical continuum between old-world fascism, modern bureaucracy, and postmodern liberalism, like mutating faces of the same id-monster?

Anyway, here’s the quote, bolded the relevant lines. I can't claim to understand the complexities of what Graeber is writing about, not even a little bit, and Graeber is LSE major player, but with that proviso:

On violence, bureaucracy, and interpretive labor

Very interesting lecture from David Graeber:

David Graeber, Goldsmiths, University of London

The experience of bureaucratic incompetence, confusion, and its ability to cause otherwise intelligent people to behave outright foolishly, opens up a series of questions about the nature of power or, more specifically, structural violence. The unique qualities of violence as a form of action means that human relations ultimately founded on violence create lopsided structures of the imagination, where the responsibility to do the interpretive labor required to allow the powerful to operate oblivious to much of what is going on around them, falls on the powerless, who thus tend to empathize with the powerful far more than the powerful do with them. The bureaucratic imposition of simple categorical schemes on the world is a way of managing the fundamental stupidity of such situations. In the hands of social theorists, such simplified schemas can be sources of insight; when enforced through structures of coercion, they tend to have precisely the opposite effect.

~~~
This essay is an exploration of certain areas of human life that have tended to make anthropologists uncomfortable: those areas of starkness, simplicity, obliviousness, and outright stupidity in our lives made possible by violence.1 By “violence” here, I am not referring to the kind of occasional, spectacular acts of violence that we tend to think of first when the word is invoked, but again, the boring, humdrum, yet omnipresent forms of structural violence that define the very conditions of our existence, the subtle or not-so-subtle threats of physical force that lie behind everything from enforcing rules about where one is allowed to sit or stand or eat or drink in parks or other public places, to the threats or physical intimidations or attacks that underpin the enforcement of tacit gender norms.

Let us call these areas of violent simplification. They affect us in almost every aspect of our lives. Yet no one likes to talk about them very much.

The single best-known anthropological work on bureaucracy is Michael Herzfeld’s The social production of indifference (1992), which begins by framing the question thusly:
In most industrial democracies—where the state is supposed to be a respecter of persons—people rail in quite predictable ways against the evils of bureaucracy. It does not matter that their outrage is often unjustified; what counts is their ability to draw on a predictable image of malfunction. If one could not grumble about “bureaucracy,” bureaucracy itself could not easily exist: both bureaucracy and the stereotypical complaints about it are parts of a larger universe that we might call, quite simply, the ideology and practice of accountability. (1992: 3)


Consider the hegemonic role, in US social theory, of Max Weber in the 1950s and 1960s, and of Michel Foucault since the 1970s. Their popularity, no doubt, had much to do with the ease with which each could be adopted as a kind of anti-Marx, their theories put forth (usually in crudely simplified form) to argue that power is not simply or primarily a matter of the control of production but rather a pervasive, multifaceted, and unavoidable feature of any social life. I also think it is no coincidence that these sometimes appear to be the only two intelligent people in human history that honestly believed that bureaucracy is characterized primarily by its effectiveness. Weber saw bureaucratic forms of organization—public and private—as the very embodiment of impersonal rationality, and as such, so obviously superior to all other possible forms of organization that they threatened to engulf everything, locking humanity in a joyless “iron cage,” bereft of spirit and charisma (1958: 181). Foucault was more subversive, but in a way that made bureaucratic power more effective, not less. In his work on asylums, clinics, prisons, and the rest, bodies, subjects—even truth itself—all become the products of administrative discourses. Through concepts like governmentality and biopower, state bureaucracies end up shaping the parameters of human existence in ways far more intimate than anything Weber might have imagined.

It’s hard to avoid the conclusion that, in either case, their popularity owed much to the fact that the American university system during this period had itself become increasingly an institution dedicated to producing functionaries for an imperial administrative apparatus on a global scale. During the Cold War, this was often fairly explicit, especially in the early years when both Boasians like Mead and Benedict and Weberians like Geertz often found themselves operating within the military-intelligence apparatus, or even funded by CIA fronts
(Ross 1998).3 Gradually, over the course of the campus mobilizations of the Vietnam War, this kind of complicity was made an issue. Max Weber—or, to be more accurate, that version of Weber promoted by sociologists like Parsons and Shils (1951), which gradually became the basis for State Department “modernization theory”—came to be seen as the embodiment of everything radicals wished to reject. But it wasn’t long before Foucault, who had been whisked out of his retreat in Tunisia and placed in the Collège de France after the uprising of May 1968, began to fill the gap. One might even speak here of the gradual emergence of a kind of division of labor within American universities, with the optimistic side of Weber reinvented (in even more simplified form) for the actual training of bureaucrats under the name of “rational choice theory,” while his pessimistic side was relegated to the Foucauldians. Foucault’s ascendancy, in turn, was precisely within those fields of academic endeavor that both became the haven for former radicals, and were almost completely divorced from any access to political power—or, increasingly, from any influence on social movements as well. This gave Foucault’s emphasis on the “power/knowledge” nexus—the assertion that forms of knowledge are always also forms of social power, indeed, the most important forms of social power—a particular appeal.

No doubt, any such pocket historical summary can only be a bit caricaturish and unfair. Still, I think there is a profound truth here. It is not just that we are drawn to areas of density, where our skills at interpretation are best deployed. We also have an increasing tendency to identify what’s interesting with what’s important, and to assume places of density are also places of power. The power of bureaucracy shows just how much this is often not the case.

This essay is not, however, primarily about bureaucracy—or even about the reasons for its neglect in anthropology and related disciplines. It is really about violence. What I would like to argue is that situations created by violence—particularly structural violence, by which I mean forms of pervasive social inequality that are ultimately backed up by the threat of physical harm—invariably tend to create the kinds of willful blindness we normally associate with bureaucratic procedures. To put it crudely: it is not so much that bureaucratic procedures are inherently stupid, or even that they tend to produce behavior that they themselves define as stupid, but rather, that they are invariably ways of managing social situations that are already stupid because they are founded on structural violence.

I think this approach allows potential insights into matters that are, in fact, both interesting and important: for instance, the actual relationship between those forms of simplification typical of social theory, and those typical of administrative procedures.

http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau ... 2.007/1013


In relation to my mostly-reviled-or ignored post on the red herring of racism:

Over-simplification of our experience, perceptions, and feelings is oppressive, hence a form of structural violence that can lead to actual violence.

Enforced accountability (i.e., if you have certain thoughts or express certain feelings you are ____ (fill in the –ist) and as a ____ist you are accountable. Instill people (from childhood) with feelings of guilt, shame, and fear of the social system, of other people, and of expressing their own thoughts, feelings, and responses, and what you get is people who are compliant easy to manipulate.

Anyway, I’m going to pick this up at another thread, since there are several that, for me at least, are currently overlapping. [Edit: continued here.]
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Morty » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:23 pm

Yes, thanks bks. I'd probably need days to come up with a response worth posting. And a refresher course on liberal philosophy wouldn't go astray either...
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby dada » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:04 am

Cid: Defenders of liberalism! Free yourselves from your mental chains!
cid2iconsize2.jpg


Eugene: Cid also tries to squeeze blood from stones.
eugene4iconsize2.jpg


Cid: The time is now!

Eugene: Isn't it always? (looks at wristwatch)

Cid: Overturn the tea tables of your mind!

Eugene: Colorful, Cid.

Cid: You can do it! Eugene and I believe in you!

Eugene: Cid believes in you.
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Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:21 pm

Liberalism is part of the same current that seeks to subjugate and suppress the masses, but now in 2016 it can be done in a way where those things help make you feel really good.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:17 am

#Liberals #BigTent #DecayofLanguage #CuiBono


"Recommended for you today" by the #liberal NYT:

A Confession of Liberal Intolerance

Nicholas Kristof Op-Ed Columnist

NYT, May 7, 2016

WE progressives believe in ...

... on Facebook recently I wondered aloud whether universities stigmatize conservatives and undermine intellectual diversity. The scornful reaction from my fellow liberals proved the point. ...

So maybe we progressives could take a brief break from attacking the other side and more broadly incorporate values that we supposedly cherish — like diversity — in our own dominions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/opini ... ngine&_r=0

"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby semper occultus » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:52 pm

According to the source, Bill was severely critical of Hillary's decision to reject an invitation to address a St. Patrick's Day event at the University of Notre Dame.
Hillary's campaign advisers nixed the idea on the grounds that white Catholics were not the audience she needed to reach.




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
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