Capital and Nature

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Capital and Nature

Postby chlamor » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:45 pm

Capital and Nature:
An Interview with Paul Burkett
by João Aguiar

1. The year 2007 marks the 140th anniversary of the publication of the first volume of Marx's Capital. In your perspective, what is the main contribution of that major work to the understanding of contemporary capitalism?

Marx's Capital establishes three essential contradictions of capitalism which grow in intensity as the system develops historically. These contradictions should be seen as interconnected. First, there is the contradiction between use value and exchange value. This should not be treated as merely a formal, abstract contradiction as is sometimes done in modern theoretical interpretations of Marx's work. Rather, it must be seen as the historical development of the tension between the requirements of money-making and monetary valuation on the one hand, and the needs of human beings, of sustainable human development, on the other. In Marx's view, capitalism worsens this tension precisely insofar as it develops and socializes productive forces (labor and nature) in line with the requirements of competitive production for profit.

The second contradiction established by Marx is the essentially class-exploitative nature of capitalism, its reliance on the extraction of surplus labor time from the direct producers. Marx shows how the wage-labor form both conceals and is shaped by the fact that workers perform surplus labor for the capitalist even insofar as they are paid the value of their labor power. He also shows that this exploitation is based on capitalism's specific social separation of workers from access to and control over necessary conditions of production. This separation is what forces workers to accept worktimes longer than those necessary to produce their own commodified means of subsistence, even though the extension of the length and intensity of worktime hinders their development as human beings. More specifically -- and this aspect has not been adequately appreciated -- Marx shows how this forced surplus labor time involves capital's appropriation of the labor power (potential work) that is produced during workers' non-worktime, not only through rest and recuperation but also through the domestic reproductive labors of workers and other members of worker-households.

From these first two contradictions emerges the third main contradiction established by Capital: capitalism's tendency to generate crises of economic and social reproduction. Marx outlined two basic kinds of capitalist crisis. The first, more specific type, which has been the subject of much debate among Marxists, involves what might be termed narrowly economic crises of accumulation due to falling profitability, or an inability to reinvest profits in a way that yields more profit. However, periodic accumulation crises should be seen as a specific outgrowth of the more general, secular, and ever worsening crisis of capitalism, namely, the inability of the system to create and maintain natural and social conditions required for the sustainable development of human beings. Marx himself focused on this second form of crisis in his discussion of the general law of capitalist accumulation in Chapter 25 of Capital, Volume I, which showed capitalism's tendency to create a growing reserve army of unemployed and underemployed workers even apart from its periodic accumulation crises. But he also dealt with the contradiction between capital accumulation and the natural conditions of human development, especially in his discussion of "Modern Industry and Agriculture" in Chapter 15 of the same volume. In fact, Marx's analysis of the natural and social environmental crises generated by capitalism are the main focus of John Bellamy Foster's quite important work, Marx's Ecology (Monthly Review Press, 2000) and of my own book, Marx and Nature (St. Martin's Press, 1999).

It must be stressed that, for Marx, both of these two forms of crisis are inevitable historical outgrowths of the use value versus exchange value contradiction and of the class-exploitative nature of capitalism.

2. Contrary to many interpretations, Marx studied and included an ecological analysis in Capital as you have shown in Marx and Nature. How does Marx integrate ecological insights into the theoretical body of Capital?

Marx's Capital integrates ecological insights in two general ways. First, Marx emphasizes the separation of workers from the land, from the earth, as the foundation of capitalism. Like other necessary conditions of production which are appropriated by capital, the land (nature) appears to wage-laborers as an external condition of their existence, one which they can only gain access to by agreeing to sell their labor power to the capitalist. This specifically capitalistic separation of the producers from reproductive access to the land is of course an ongoing historical process. As David Harvey has recently emphasized in his work The New Imperialism (Oxford University Press, 2003), this kind of "accumulation by dispossession" has become one of the main sources of profit in capitalism's current, neoliberal phase. Its ecological significance is just as obvious. By first separating land and laborers and then combining them in production driven by competitive profit-making, capitalism develops their combined productive powers in ways that are more and more alienated from the requirements of ecological sustainability. Unlike earlier modes of production such as feudalism, in which workers were socially tied to the land, capitalist production is not reliant on particular natural conditions and ecosystems, and can therefore afford to violate the conditions of ecological sustainability and "move on" (both spatially and functionally) to the exploitation of new use values producible by labor and nature. Put differently, capitalism has an historically unprecedented ability to sustain itself through the production of ecologically unsustainable use values -- which is precisely why it has the potential to create ecological crises that are unprecedented in scope and depth, all the way up to the global, biospheric level.

Second, Marx incorporates ecological concerns through his analysis of capitalist market valuation. Although this claim may seem paradoxical, the fact is that ecological criticisms of Marx's "labor theory of value" wrongly interpret this theory as a normative assertion that, compared to nature, labor is a more important or primary condition of production. For Marx, however, production of use values always requires both nature and labor, and labor is itself a metabolic relationship between people (themselves natural, albeit socially developed, beings) and nature. Marx did not himself reduce value to abstract, socially necessary labor time; rather his claim is that capitalism, based on its separation of laborers from necessary conditions of production, values commodities in this way. Hence, the tension between labor values and the natural requirements of sustainable production should be seen as an immanent outgrowth of the more basic contradictions between use value and exchange value and between labor and capital. Capital accumulation relies on both nature and labor as material vehicles for the production and realization of surplus value; yet, in the aggregate, it values commodities only in line with the abstract labor they contain. Monetary rents are purely redistributive and suffer from their own ecological contradictions -- see below. In any case, the norm under capitalism is the free appropriation and abuse of the use values latent in nature for purposes of competitive production for profit.

It must be emphasized that, for Marx, the production of values (in the sense of exchange values) itself requires that these values be objectified in saleable use values. If a commodity (and the labor that produces it) does not serve a human need (however illusory, uncivilized, or ecologically damaging), then it will not count as value in the market. This is precisely how the "social necessity" of value as socially necessary labor time is anarchically enforced through the market. Hence capital accumulation, the production and reinvestment of surplus value, remains dependent upon use values produced by both labor and nature. Capital accumulation requires not only exploitable labor power but also material, natural, conditions that enable labor power to be exploited and surplus labor to be objectified in vendible commodities. This helps explain why capitalism has been so damaging to the environment throughout its history and why it is currently threatening the livability of our planet. In short, far from being anti-ecological, Marx's critical analysis of capitalist valuation is essential to an adequate understanding of environmental crises both historical and contemporary.

3. To confront our ecological problems adequately we need to understand the interrelation between society (a certain mode of production) and nature. Can you explain to us how this metabolism works under capitalism?

As already noted, capitalism's specific forms of metabolism with nature are shaped by its radical separation of the direct producers from necessary conditions of production, starting with the land.

For example, it is only on the basis of the commodification of "free" labor power (workers separated from the land and other production conditions) that the commodity and money forms come to dominate society's economic reproduction and hence its metabolic interactions (exchanges of matter and energy) with nature. Monetary valuation is of course a necessity under capitalism, due to the need for a general equivalent of value in the sense of abstract labor time. The ecological contradictions of monetary valuation and market pricing of the environment -- which, it must be noted, apply fully to all kinds of rents, whether implemented privately or by governments -- are thus intrinsic to capitalism and therefore completely immune to all reforms that keep capitalist relations of wage-labor and market exchange intact. And these contradictions are antagonistic indeed. Money and monetary values are homogenous, divisible, mobile, reversible, and quantitatively unlimited, by contrast with the qualitative variety (and ongoing variegation), indivisibility, locational uniqueness, irreversibility, and quantitative limits to natural use values including ecological systems. As I showed in my book Marx and Nature, the ecological contradictions of monetary valuation are all logically implied by Marx's value analysis, and in several cases were consciously highlighted by Marx. While many contemporary non-Marxist ecological economists have also pointed out the shortcomings of market pricing, they have done so without rooting their analysis in the system's basic relations of production (see my book Marxism and Ecological Economics [Brill, 2006 for a sympathetic critique of ecological economics).

Of course, capitalism's concrete effects on its environment cannot be read off directly from the abstract ecological contradictions of money and monetary valuation. Their analysis requires detailed study of the system's historical development as shaped by class and competitive struggles on both national and global levels. Marx himself showed how capitalism's development of mechanized industrial productive forces -- the factory system -- generated unprecedented advances in labor productivity which translated directly into historically huge increases in the throughput of matter and energy drawn from and emitted into the natural environment. This analysis can be located in terms of the two kinds of capitalist crisis mentioned earlier. On one level, capitalism's growing appetite for raw materials (including ancillary materials used as energy sources) inevitably results in shortages of these materials due to the dependence of materials production on natural conditions which cannot be reproduced by capitalist enterprise itself. The main example of such materials-supply problems treated by Marx was the 19th-century cotton crises that afflicted England and other early industrializing countries. Marx's theoretical analysis of these crises was quite sophisticated, taking into account the interplay between value relations, technological and other physical production constraints, rents, and the role of the credit system and speculation in worsening materials shortages and price fluctuations. His analysis can easily be extended and adapted to contemporary oil crises, for example. (See Chapter 9 of my book Marx and Nature.)

On another level, Marxism provides insights into how capitalism's specific metabolism generates crises in the natural conditions of human development. One insight involves what the leading ecological economist Herman Daly has termed the "breaking of the solar budget constraint" through the utilization of fossil fuels, especially starting with the industrial revolution. The causes of this development are highly relevant to any serious discussion of today's global warming problem, not to speak of contemporary "oil shocks." Here, ecological economists basically take the discovery of fossil fuels as a given "original sin" and blame it -- together with exogenous cultural factors such as the "ideology of growth" -- for the system's shift onto an ecologically unsustainable path. (See especially the work of the late great Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen.) Marx's analysis is quite different. In Capital's chapter on "Machinery and Modern Industry," he shows that an essential precondition for greater use of fossil fuel-driven steam engines was the separation of workers from control over the tools used in production and the installation of these tools in machines which could then be powered not just by human and other animate energy but by inanimate "motive forces." In other words, it was capitalism's specific production relations that generated the break with the solar budget constraint. (See the article co-written by John Bellamy Foster and myself in the journal Theory and Society (February 2006).)

Finally, Marx showed that capitalism's spatial separation and industrial integration of manufacturing and agriculture resulted in a failure to recycle the nutrients extracted from the soil and the conversion of these nutrients into unhealthy pollutants, side-by-side with the vitiation of labor power by long and intensive worktimes and by enervating living conditions in urban areas. Informed by his studies of Justus von Liebig and other scientists, Marx saw this development as a metabolic rift in the circulation of matter and energy required for the sustainable reproduction of human-natural systems. Recent work by John Bellamy Foster, Brett Clark, Richard York, Rebecca Clausen, and Philip Mancus has reconstructed Marx's metabolic rift analysis and extended it to the contemporary problems of global warming, depletion and degradation of oceanic ecosystems by industrial fishing and aquaculture, and disruptions to the global nitrogen cycle brought on by overuse of inorganic fertilizers in industrial agriculture. Foster, Clark, and Jason Moore have used the rift approach to show how "ecological imperialism" (the guano trade, sugar plantations, etc.) and resultant ecological crises have been central to capitalist development and underdevelopment on a global scale. (See Chapter 9 of my book, Marxism and Ecological Economics.)

In sum, what Marxism provides that other theories can't is precisely a demonstration that capitalism does have its own specific metabolism with nature -- one shaped by its profoundly anti-ecological separation of workers from conditions of production and its corresponding forms of market exchange and monetary valuation. From this perspective, any solution for contemporary ecological crises must be explicitly anti-capitalist, that is, based on the democratic socialization of nature and other conditions of production by workers and communities.

<snip>

http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/aguiar240407.html
Liberal thy name is hypocrisy. What's new?
chlamor
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:26 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

erk...you'll turn us all into Commies!

Postby slow_dazzle » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:59 pm

Seriously, in order to understand this debate one requires critical thinking skills, skills of the sort that are not taught in schools and have not been since the early 20th century. Which fits neatly with your earlier post about dumbed down education and my (sort of) related response in which I mention Postman's lamentation that we are amusing ourselves to death.

Our shallow soundbite culture (oxymoron) makes it difficult for most people to even summon up the energy to think this article through. But they SHOULD - we ALL should, even if it's only to disagree at the end of it.
On behalf of the future, I ask you of the past to leave us alone. You are not welcome among us. You have no sovereignty where we gather.

John Perry Barlow - A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace
slow_dazzle
 
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:19 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: erk...you'll turn us all into Commies!

Postby chlamor » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:20 pm

slow_dazzle wrote:Seriously, in order to understand this debate one requires critical thinking skills, skills of the sort that are not taught in schools and have not been since the early 20th century. Which fits neatly with your earlier post about dumbed down education and my (sort of) related response in which I mention Postman's lamentation that we are amusing ourselves to death.

Our shallow soundbite culture (oxymoron) makes it difficult for most people to even summon up the energy to think this article through. But they SHOULD - we ALL should, even if it's only to disagree at the end of it.



Another tremendous read which would enable anyone to dispense with "the theory" of a ruling class and see exactly how it works is a book titled "Thy Will Be Done" by Colby and Dennett. It's quite dense and 800 pages in length, with another hundred or so pages of incredible footnotes. This will give you a bird's-eye view of how the elites operate. It focuses on the Rockefeller's interests in The Amazon and how it colludes with missionary interests. Oil and God both working from a capitalist-colonialist perspective. Straight from the Rockefeller library. It ain't pretty.

Young people are rarely taught critical thinking skills and never taught our real history, only what's falsely portrayed about it with all ugly parts suppressed. It's to program their minds and train a new generation of "good citizens" to believe what serves the privileged best benefits everyone and assure they won't resist to keep it that way.

I'd like to comment further on the OP article and your comment in the other article, in fact I did but it didn't make it through, but I've been getting the CPU violation thingie too often so it became a bit frustrating when my responses were offed into the ether.

You raise some excellent points.

Testing, testing... we'll see if this makes it through.
Liberal thy name is hypocrisy. What's new?
chlamor
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:26 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby alloneword » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:59 pm

Marx got it wrong, in that he fails to appreciate the systemic problems inherent in a debt-based money system.

This fundamental error in his understanding of the nature of 'money' - that is, it is not as Marx considers a 'neutral medium of exchange', rather it is (through the mechanism of usury) a powerful political tool in itself - is why much of his work is redundant - or at worst, irrelevant.

The most concise demolition of Marxist theory in this regard was performed by Silvio Gesell in his book 'The Natural Economic Order'. Here's a short, highly digestible extract to demonstrate the point:

A Story of Robinson Crusoe - well worth a read.

Even John Maynard Keynes once wrote: 'I believe that the future will learn more from the spirit of Gesell than from that of Marx.' I couldn't agree more.

Further to that - or for anyone who isn't predisposed to reading - there's a groovy little animated film (I posted on the 'video links only thread' the other day) entitled 'Money as Debt', which examines precisely the same systemic failures as Gesell identified (and Marx appears to ignore!)

My favourite quote from the animation: "...More and more 'stuff' has to go from natural resources to garbage - for ever - just to keep this system from collapsing".

If, perchance, you are reading this and thinking 'Hmmm... who the heck is this 'Gesell' chap and why, if he's so damn hot, have I never heard of him, yet I've heard a load about Marx..?' STOP and THINK for a moment as to why that might be. If you want a clue, perhaps take a read through Antony C. Sutton's book entitled 'Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution'.
User avatar
alloneword
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:19 am
Location: UK
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby alloneword » Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:37 pm

Apologies if that sounded 'ranty', btw. ;)
User avatar
alloneword
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:19 am
Location: UK
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby tron » Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:11 pm

for all that is bad in the bible ,it does say somewhere that ursury is wrong
User avatar
tron
 
Posts: 508
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:34 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby alloneword » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:01 pm

Not just once, either. :)

Indeed, I can't think of *any* religion that has anything positive to say for it.

Here's a worthwhile article on Why Islam is Against Usury.

When they tell us it's a War between ideologies, they're not joking.

Usury is the evil, parasitic cancer that permeates every facet of our lives, systemically hard-wires in the need for 'growth' and enslaves us all.

Since every dollar/pound that exists is 'created' by debt that bears interest, there can logically never be enough 'money' to repay the debt, since only the principal sum was ever created - the 'money' to repay the principal plus interest does not exist.

'Competition' isn't in any way natural, despite their constant attempts to terra-form our minds into believing it is - it's just an inevitable symptom of this systemic cancer.
User avatar
alloneword
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:19 am
Location: UK
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby marykmusic » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:53 pm

I have always avoided taking any economics classes; perhaps it's time I turned that around. So much is going on these days that I need to ground myself in a deeper understanding.

One thing that catches my attention is how the connection of agriculture and industry is resulting in not only poisoning our soil, but the people who are dependent on the system for food. Even some of the organic produce and grain products that I go out of my way to buy (and pay premium prices), are GM crops. Talk about the connection between agriculture and industry! And these things are being proven to be non-foods at best, and slowly poisoning us at worst.

I do, however, understand history. And farming as being one with Nature and the land. And the proliferation of agribusiness (a word coined to celebrate the agriculture/industry connection) on the basis of destroying the family farm.

In the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, there was a socialist movement here in the US based on farmers wanting to be treated fairly. My grandfather was involved, as was Dragon's grandfather. It was a viable movement for a while, the Grange-based neighborhood-autonomity structure, even getting some folks elected to Congress. But they got tarred with the Commie brush, and it faded away by the 1920's, by the prices to farmers being so low that many went broke. --MaryK
http://www.zforcegroup.com

"You cannot wifstand my supewiew intewect." --Tweety Bird
marykmusic
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:23 am
Location: Central Arizona
Blog: View Blog (0)

thanks

Postby smiths » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:00 pm

thanks alloneword,
you have just loaned me some great reading for the next few days,
i shall pay you back with interest ing snippets of my own information in good time
User avatar
smiths
 
Posts: 2205
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 4:18 am
Location: perth, western australia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby marykmusic » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:10 pm

[Edited double post. --MaryK]
Last edited by marykmusic on Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
marykmusic
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:23 am
Location: Central Arizona
Blog: View Blog (0)

which

Postby smiths » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:11 pm

which mary reminds me of the parable of the times, the wizard of oz

http://www.prosperityuk.com/prosperity/ ... izzoz.html
User avatar
smiths
 
Posts: 2205
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 4:18 am
Location: perth, western australia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Marx was quite clear on money

Postby chlamor » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:53 pm

alloneword wrote:Marx got it wrong, in that he fails to appreciate the systemic problems inherent in a debt-based money system.

This fundamental error in his understanding of the nature of 'money' - that is, it is not as Marx considers a 'neutral medium of exchange', rather it is (through the mechanism of usury) a powerful political tool in itself - is why much of his work is redundant - or at worst, irrelevant.

The most concise demolition of Marxist theory in this regard was performed by Silvio Gesell in his book 'The Natural Economic Order'. Here's a short, highly digestible extract to demonstrate the point:

A Story of Robinson Crusoe - well worth a read.

Even John Maynard Keynes once wrote: 'I believe that the future will learn more from the spirit of Gesell than from that of Marx.' I couldn't agree more.

Further to that - or for anyone who isn't predisposed to reading - there's a groovy little animated film (I posted on the 'video links only thread' the other day) entitled 'Money as Debt', which examines precisely the same systemic failures as Gesell identified (and Marx appears to ignore!)

My favourite quote from the animation: "...More and more 'stuff' has to go from natural resources to garbage - for ever - just to keep this system from collapsing".

If, perchance, you are reading this and thinking 'Hmmm... who the heck is this 'Gesell' chap and why, if he's so damn hot, have I never heard of him, yet I've heard a load about Marx..?' STOP and THINK for a moment as to why that might be. If you want a clue, perhaps take a read through Antony C. Sutton's book entitled 'Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution'.


<snip>

That which I am unable to do as a man, and of which therefore all my individual essential powers are incapable, I am able to do by means of money. Money thus turns each of these powers into something which in itself it is not — turns it, that is, into its contrary.

If I long for a particular dish or want to take the mail-coach because I am not strong enough to go by foot, money fetches me the dish and the mail-coach: that is, it converts my wishes from something in the realm of imagination, translates them from their meditated, imagined or desired existence into their sensuous, actual existence — from imagination to life, from imagined being into real being. In effecting this mediation, [money] is the truly creative power.

No doubt the demand also exists for him who has no money, but his demand is a mere thing of the imagination without effect or existence for me, for a third party, for the [others], and which therefore remains even for me unreal and objectless. The difference between effective demand based on money and ineffective demand based on my need, my passion, my wish, etc., is the difference between being and thinking, between the idea which merely exists within me and the idea which exists as a real object outside of me.

If I have no money for travel, I have no need — that is, no real and realisable need — to travel. If I have the vocation for study but no money for it, I have no vocation for study — that is, no effective, no true vocation. On the other hand, if I have really no vocation for study but have the will and the money for it, I have an effective vocation for it. Money as the external, universal medium and faculty (not springing from man as man or from human society as society) for turning an image into reality and reality into a mere image, transforms the real essential powers of man and nature into what are merely abstract notions and therefore imperfections and tormenting chimeras, just as it transforms real imperfections and chimeras — essential powers which are really impotent, which exist only in the imagination of the individual — into real essential powers and faculties. In the light of this characteristic alone, money is thus the general distorting of individualities which turns them into their opposite and confers contradictory attributes upon their attributes.

Money, then, appears as this distorting power both against the individual and against the bonds of society, etc., which claim to be entities in themselves. It transforms fidelity into infidelity, love into hate, hate into love, virtue into vice, vice into virtue, servant into master, master into servant, idiocy into intelligence, and intelligence into idiocy.

Since money, as the existing and active concept of value, confounds and confuses all things, it is the general confounding and confusing of all things — the world upside-down — the confounding and confusing of all natural and human qualities.

He who can buy bravery is brave, though he be a coward. As money is not exchanged for any one specific quality, for any one specific thing, or for any particular human essential power, but for the entire objective world of man and nature, from the standpoint of its possessor it therefore serves to exchange every quality for every other, even contradictory, quality and object: it is the fraternisation of impossibilities. It makes contradictions embrace.

Assume man to be man and his relationship to the world to be a human one: then you can exchange love only for love, trust for trust, etc. If you want to enjoy art, you must be an artistically cultivated person; if you want to exercise influence over other people, you must be a person with a stimulating and encouraging effect on other people. Every one of your relations to man and to nature must be a specific expression, corresponding to the object of your will, of your real individual life. If you love without evoking love in return — that is, if your loving as loving does not produce reciprocal love; if through a living expression of yourself as a loving person you do not make yourself a beloved one, then your love is impotent — a misfortune.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... /power.htm

And Keynes, while not so outwardly wicked as Milton Friedman, was certainly one of the most revered and presented of the wicked economists that the capital ruler class shoved down our throats.
Liberal thy name is hypocrisy. What's new?
chlamor
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:26 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby erosoplier » Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:07 am

alloneword wrote:Marx got it wrong, in that he fails to appreciate the systemic problems inherent in a debt-based money system.


The question is, was Marx really that stupid? I've been thinking about this, and I don't see how he could have been that stupid. I've been meaning to look to see how Marx treats the politics of the creation of money, but before I look I know he deals with it inadequately - else Marxism would have plotted an entirely different course than it did.

This was my favourite passage from early (or late) Marx, years ago (from chlamor's link):

That which is for me through the medium of money — that for which I can pay (i.e., which money can buy) — that am I myself, the possessor of the money. The extent of the power of money is the extent of my power. Money’s properties are my — the possessor’s — properties and essential powers. Thus, what I am and am capable of is by no means determined by my individuality. I am ugly, but I can buy for myself the most beautiful of women. Therefore I am not ugly, for the effect of ugliness — its deterrent power — is nullified by money. I, according to my individual characteristics, am lame, but money furnishes me with twenty-four feet. Therefore I am not lame. I am bad, dishonest, unscrupulous, stupid; but money is honoured, and hence its possessor. Money is the supreme good, therefore its possessor is good. Money, besides, saves me the trouble of being dishonest: I am therefore presumed honest. I am brainless, but money is the real brain of all things and how then should its possessor be brainless? Besides, he can buy clever people for himself, and is he who has a power over the clever not more clever than the clever? Do not I, who thanks to money am capable of all that the human heart longs for, possess all human capacities? Does not my money, therefore, transform all my incapacities into their contrary?

But it's just sentimental shite, really. His early stuff was sentimental shite, and his later stuff was dogmatic shite. My 13 word thesis on Marx.
User avatar
erosoplier
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:38 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Perhaps this will help

Postby chlamor » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:33 am

erosoplier wrote:
alloneword wrote:Marx got it wrong, in that he fails to appreciate the systemic problems inherent in a debt-based money system.


The question is, was Marx really that stupid? I've been thinking about this, and I don't see how he could have been that stupid. I've been meaning to look to see how Marx treats the politics of the creation of money, but before I look I know he deals with it inadequately - else Marxism would have plotted an entirely different course than it did.

This was my favourite passage from early (or late) Marx, years ago (from chlamor's link):

That which is for me through the medium of money — that for which I can pay (i.e., which money can buy) — that am I myself, the possessor of the money. The extent of the power of money is the extent of my power. Money’s properties are my — the possessor’s — properties and essential powers. Thus, what I am and am capable of is by no means determined by my individuality. I am ugly, but I can buy for myself the most beautiful of women. Therefore I am not ugly, for the effect of ugliness — its deterrent power — is nullified by money. I, according to my individual characteristics, am lame, but money furnishes me with twenty-four feet. Therefore I am not lame. I am bad, dishonest, unscrupulous, stupid; but money is honoured, and hence its possessor. Money is the supreme good, therefore its possessor is good. Money, besides, saves me the trouble of being dishonest: I am therefore presumed honest. I am brainless, but money is the real brain of all things and how then should its possessor be brainless? Besides, he can buy clever people for himself, and is he who has a power over the clever not more clever than the clever? Do not I, who thanks to money am capable of all that the human heart longs for, possess all human capacities? Does not my money, therefore, transform all my incapacities into their contrary?

But it's just sentimental shite, really. His early stuff was sentimental shite, and his later stuff was dogmatic shite. My 13 word thesis on Marx.


Gesell is exceedingly obscure and probably deserves to be (I can't account for the quote from Keynes but he has said many things I can't account for). If memory serves, Gesell not only borrowed from Proudhon but also from the Physiocrats. He was a believer in private enterprise with similarities to your "Agorists" but stood against "interest" and inheritance. The attachment to Money and usury as the focus for "change" is odd because Gesell lived 100 years after the issue was raised at the beginnings of political economy, in the debates between the Physiocrats and the Mercantilists. In turn, he was already dead by the time that Keynes and his detractors discovered "Monetary Policy" as an instrument for moderating cyclic capitalist crises (albeit to a very limited degree). Perhaps the answer is that simple. Gisell being an "anarchist", mistakes the original debate as being between land rent and the interest of Money capital and naturally supports the former. His exploration of the category then attracts Keynes, not because of the details of his analysis but because of the similarity of his focus to Keynes' own (the "spirit" of Gesell). "Anarchism", notwithstanding, Proudhon is very thin on this front himself, borrowing much from the Utopians and having a very spotty understanding of commodity exchange in general. Most "anarchists" borrow from Marx on this, the notable exceptions being the free enterprise crowd (although, I haven't heard much about Gesell within even that very small audience).

It is equally odd that your author would choose this subject on which to declare that “Marx was wrong”. The old man says that profit, interest, and rent are all components of surplus value. A simple discussion of this is in the Capital and Nature thread which you just kicked up. What makes the claim “odd” is that Marx’s views on this are based on the views of Adam Smith, and to a lesser extent, David Ricardo. Thus Gesell is not just challenging Marx (who seems to be fair game for every asshole with a keyboard) but Classical Economics as a whole. Despite what you may think, that is a sizable undertaking.

A good source for the derivation of Marx’s theories, expounded in Capital, are Marx’s Theories of Surplus Value in 3 volumes, available here:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... /index.htm

These are essentially Marx’s economic notebooks. The quote below is from Part I, Chapter III Adam Smith, Section 2. Smith’s General Conception of Surplus-Value. The Notion of Profit, Rent and Interest as Deductions from the Product of the Worker’s Labour

Quote:
Thus Adam Smith conceives surplus-value—that is, surplus-labour, the excess of labour performed and realised in the commodity over and above the paid labour, the labour which has received its equivalent in the wages —as the general category, ||254| of which profit in the strict sense and rent of land are merely branches. Nevertheless, he does not distinguish surplus-value as such as a category on its own, distinct from the specific forms it assumes in profit and rent. This is the source of much error and inadequacy in his inquiry, and of even more in the work of Ricardo.

Another form in which surplus-value appears is interest on capital, interest on money. But this “interest on money is always”, Adam Smith says in the same chapter, “a derivative revenue, which, if it is not paid from the profit which is made by the use of the money, must he paid from some other source of revenue” (therefore either rent or wages. In the latter case, assuming the average wage, it does not originate from surplus-value but is a deduction from the wage itself or—and in this form, as we shall later have occasion to see, it appears in undeveloped capitalist production —it is only another form of profit) “unless perhaps the borrower is a spendthrift, who contracts a second debt in order to pay the interest of the first” ([ibid., p. 581, [Garnier], l. c., pp. 105–06). Interest is therefore either a part of the profit made with the capital lent; in this case it is only a secondary form of profit itself, a branch of profit, and thus only a further division between different persons of the surplus-value appropriated in the form of profit. Or it is paid out of rent. In which case the same holds good. Or the borrower pays the interest out of his own or someone else’s capital. In which case it in no way constitutes surplus-value, but is merely a different distribution of existing wealth, vibration of the balance of wealth between parties, as in profit upon alienation. Excluding the latter case, when interest is not in any way a form of surplus-value (and excluding the case where it is a deduction from the wage or itself a form of profit; Adam Smith does not mention this latter case), interest is therefore only a secondary form of surplus-value, a mere part of profit or of rent (affecting merely their distribution), and therefore also is nothing but a part of unpaid surplus-Labour.

“The stock which is lent at interest is always considered as a capital by the lender. He expects that in due time it is to be restored to him, and that in the meantime the borrower is to pay him a certain annual rent for the use of it. The borrower may use it either as a capital, or as a stock reserved for immediate consumption. If he uses it as a capital, he employs it in the maintenance of productive labourers, who reproduce the value with a profit. He can, in this case, both restore the capital and pay the interest without alienating or encroaching upon any other source of revenue. If he uses it as a stock reserved for immediate consumption, he acts the part of a prodigal, and dissipates in the maintenance of the idle, what was destined for the support of the industrious. He can, in this case, neither restore the capital nor pay the interest, without either alienating or encroaching upon some other source of revenue, such as the property or […] rent of land” (Vol. II, b. II, ch. IV, p. 127 edit. McCulloch).

|255| Thus whoever borrows money, which here means capital, either uses it himself as capital, and makes a profit with it. In this case the interest which he pays to the lender is nothing but a part of the profit under a special name. Or he consumes the borrowed money. Then he increases the wealth of the lender by reducing his own. What takes place is only a different distribution of the wealth that passes from the hand of the spendthrift into that of the lender, but there is no generation of surplus-value. In so far therefore as interest in any way represents surplus-value, it is nothing but a part of profit, which itself is nothing but a definite form of surplus-value, that is, unpaid labour.



The above is all fairly easy to demonstrate.

There is nothing special about money and there is no independent power revealed by interest other than the social capacity to command Capital and thus extract surplus value. It’s not surprising that people looking at money or interest, post festum, regard either or both as having mystical or intrinsic properties. Many, ranginging from Willaim Jennings Bryan to your friend sweetheart, make this mistake. Again in Capital and Nature, there is a discussion of fetishism which explains the Gesell explanations far better than the explanations themselves explain money or interest.
Liberal thy name is hypocrisy. What's new?
chlamor
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:26 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby erosoplier » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:25 am

chlamor, I'm confused by your post. But that's ok, I'm so lazy these days, I can't be bothered staying confused for very long.

The question I'm getting at is, where did Marx discuss the creation of money out of nothing? You seem to confirm my recollection that he didn't discuss it. Instead he reifies the notion of "capital" over the course of his life's work. Nowhere (though I'm willing to be corrected on this) does he mention that bankers rarely loan out pre-existing money, that instead they loan out money they create with a signature on a piece of paper.

Quite an omission for a supposed champion of the workers.


I went to find alloneword's link to Money as Debt so I could refer you to it, and I find:

alloneword wrote:Further to that - or for anyone who isn't predisposed to reading - there's a groovy little animated film (I posted on the 'video links only thread' the other day) entitled 'Money as Debt', which examines precisely the same systemic failures as Gesell identified (and Marx appears to ignore!)


And was reminded that I glossed over alloneword's post because I realised I'd have to return to it when I had time to do some reading...
User avatar
erosoplier
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:38 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 155 guests