Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

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Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:16 pm

I hoped to put more time into this, but since I might be banned or suspended, I must start this thread with a briefer OP than it deserves. I'll link to the previous cobwebby thread now in a sub-topic archive, I'll link to the wikipedia page, I'll link to a few articles. Perhaps this time the event will attract more attention, more examination, more intuitive reasoning.

"Seattle Massacre"
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5015

"Capitol Hill Massacre"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Massacre

Melissa Moore, 14
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/ ... ore27.html

Suzanne Thorne, 15
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... 199571.php

Christopher Williamson, 21
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/ ... ms27m.html

Justin Schwartz, 22
http://www.seattlepi.com/default/articl ... 199504.php

Jeremy Martin, 26
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/ ... ms26m.html

Jason Travers, 32
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/ ... ile27.html
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby DrVolin » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:03 pm

Just curious. Why do you think you might be banned?
all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

--Guns and Roses
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:25 pm

DrVolin wrote:Just curious. Why do you think you might be banned?


viewtopic.php?p=495761#p495761

(I shouldn't have included that bit in the preface here, it was stupid of me. I'm requesting now that any conversation about it happen in the other thread, that this one be reserved for the original topic, thank you.)
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:41 pm

If the parent of someone killed in Newtown or Aurora were a member here, I wonder how much more attention would be paid by everyone here to the circumstances of their child's death. Hell, there's already about 80 pages on Newtown, and as far as I know no one here had family who died there.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby justdrew » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:18 pm

...
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:29 am

justdrew wrote:maybe you should take a little break, you sound tired. :whisper:


Excuse me...what exactly are you implying?

Oh, let me guess first, my recent output here has some people (hopefully few, or better yet just you, justdrew) wondering about, uh, my sanity? Great. What else would be new. No, don't bother engaging with that output, refuting any assertions or falsifying any speculation (if that's possible), no no no, why would you want to do that? Far more comfortable and easier to just ignore me or, if there's any engagement at all, to worry about me. Yeah, great, please worry about me, sure, I appreciate the good intentions. I really do. Once upon a time, worrying about me was even justified to some extent, though not expressed in the most effective way possible, I suppose. Also, please realize that, like Kate Millett recounts in The Loony-Bin, just worrying about someone like me can be nearly an act of violence itself, wittingly or unwittingly, can help lead to the indefinite suspension of civil rights, can lead to imprisonment. Can provide some bogus witness to a supposed mental disturbance that, in retrospect, could provide a hack journalist with the "reasons" for some tragic outcome. Ahem. So, think twice before you worry, thanks. Good news, though: There is nothing to worry about. If you were to give me a questionnaire to check item-by-item of bipolar symptoms, I would not be able to check enough to warrant further tests, questionnaires, etc. So, that's great, isn't it? For you, and for me?

Well, not so much you. Because, you see, since I'm not crazy, then that returns the onus back to you, fellow RI member, to address my recent output. For example: "Hmmm...that assertion seems grandiose." Oh, really? Is it? How? Surely if I've said something disconnected from reality, then it will be easy for anyone to reconnect it back, correct the errors, "talk me down", or whatever. Can you? Is it possible? If so, then do it. Not in that 20-page Marshall thread, unfortunately, because it was unreasonably locked. But somewhere. Not here, either, though. Because this thread exists to remember and examine the events and unwilling participants of that event in Seattle that took place 7 years to the day (yesterday, now), and I utterly resent your intruding into this thread to express your well-intentioned concern for my mental well-being, cloaked as an observation that I "sound tired"...Do I sound tired now? What, is a person not supposed to type this much? Am I weird for posting so voluminously, and not just pasting a link and adding a little commentary like a normal person? There are normal people here? Where? In short, take your response to this reply elsewhere, buddy. Perhaps a private message, if you really are so worried. Or was the point to publicly, subtly undermine me? I don't know. You tell me. Elsewhere. This thread is for Jason Travers and the other five souls. Not me. Not you.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby justdrew » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:43 am

...
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:44 am

justdrew wrote:ok, I just found it a little odd bringing up such a personally painful subject for a member, but I could be wrong.

U.S. Gun Deaths Since Sandy Hook Top 1,280
Posted: 02/01/2013 8:21 pm EST | Updated: 02/03/2013 3:32 pm EST


Gee, ever think that maybe I had his personal blessing to do so?
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby justdrew » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:51 am

ok then, never mind me
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:56 am

Thank you, justdrew. Fourth Base did ask me if it would be ok with me to post this thread and I gave him my blessing. I don't mind if folk want to revisit this incident. It is quite the puzzling curiosity.
Perhaps no one's wanted to discuss this event for fear of offending me in some way, I don't know. Or offending another? It really doesn't matter all that much to me. It was a blessing the murderer committed suicide saving us all from living our lives scorn-filled and vengeful. And there are a very many unanswered questions.

It is out of the news cycle, though FourthBase,
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby justdrew » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:09 am

here's an article from 2008 I don't remember seeing before...
http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=650
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:20 am

Iamwhomiam wrote:Thank you, justdrew. Fourth Base did ask me if it would be ok with me to post this thread and I gave him my blessing. I don't mind if folk want to revisit this incident. It is quite the puzzling curiosity.
Perhaps no one's wanted to discuss this event for fear of offending me in some way, I don't know. Or offending another? It really doesn't matter all that much to me. It was a blessing the murderer committed suicide saving us all from living our lives scorn-filled and vengeful. And there are a very many unanswered questions.

It is out of the news cycle, though FourthBase,


True, it is out of the news cycle.
But this board has its own news cycle.
Creates its own news cycle, for itself.
If it chooses to do so, collectively, individually.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:02 am

justdrew wrote:here's an article from 2008 I don't remember seeing before...
http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=650


I'd need a postmodernist academic to translate about 25% of that. The number of people in the world who could understand that essay fully must only number in the hundreds. As it is, I am both 1) intrigued by the analysis I was able to comprehend and 2) severely discomfited by the treatment of Huff as an unwitting artist or whatever. Also, there were a couple points at which I thought, "Nietzsche did not mean what this guy thinks he meant...in fact, he meant the opposite", but that's par for the course with postmodern citations of Nietzsche. The essay on the whole was devoid of anything that might resemble compassion and sorrow for anyone except, perversely, Huff. For that reason, I strongly recommend that anyone personally connected to the event not read that essay, unless one can muster the emotional distance to withstand it.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby justdrew » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:07 am

FourthBase wrote:
justdrew wrote:here's an article from 2008 I don't remember seeing before...
http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=650


I'd need a postmodernist academic to translate about 25% of that. The number of people in the world who could understand that essay fully must only number in the hundreds. As it is, I am both 1) intrigued by the analysis I was able to comprehend and 2) severely discomfited by the treatment of Huff as an unwitting artist or whatever. Also, there were a couple points at which I thought, "Nietzsche did not mean what this guy thinks he meant...in fact, he meant the opposite", but that's par for the course with postmodern citations of Nietzsche. The essay on the whole was devoid of anything that might resemble compassion and sorrow for anyone except, perversely, Huff. For that reason, I strongly recommend that anyone personally connected to the event not read that essay, unless one can muster the emotional distance to withstand it.



maybe I am starting to remember that article. not sure. but yeah, it's so fraking long winded "20 words to say nothing" at times. I'm so glad I'm not reading much of that style anymore and I think, really, it's JUST a style. Designed to give the impression of high-falutin thinkerizing. but I'm often being overly critical of things today :shrug:
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:46 am

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/ ... ff02m.html

"The most important thing I want to stress is that he had to be influenced by somebody — or something else — or have had something huge happen in his life," Legris said.


And that was said after this had already happened...

Two years later, the twins still were living in Whitefish when tragedy rocked the community.

Jared Hope, a high-school friend of the twins, killed his parents and shot himself on a weekend visit home from Missoula.

According to Ciaramitaro, the Huff brothers had been out drinking with Hope the night that the murders and suicide occurred. Hope had long struggled with mental illness that was well known among friends. And the twins told Ciaramitaro that they were uneasy with Hope's behavior that night.


A site called "murderpedia.org" compiles an assortment of articles.
I won't be linking to it, but here are some quotes:

Cassidy said Kyle and Kane Huff returned to Whitefish in 2002 to attend the funeral of Jared Hope, a high-school classmate who killed his parents and himself with an illegally purchased .357-caliber Magnum revolver. The killings startled the town, which rarely has a murder, and nearly 1,000 people attended the service.


One of Ciaramitaro or Cassidy has it wrong, either/or.

Tests to determine whether Huff had taken drugs before the killings are at least two weeks away. But at least one local teen who ran into Huff at a St. Patrick's Day rave said it appeared he took drugs then.

Jolene Padgett, 17, of Snohomish said Huff seemed incapacitated. "I'm surprised he didn't end up in the hospital."


What drug, I wonder.

Huff was "quick to anger," said James Winn, a 20-year-old rave promoter in Seattle, who used to hang out with Huff and his brother near their Montana home, and also knew some of the victims.


Doesn't this suggest the choice of a Seattle rave was less-than-random?

Before he killed six people and then himself in Seattle's second-worst mass murder Saturday, Huff and his brother also tangled with local skinheads, according to a police report.


But then, in the "Journey" article...

"On a rare occasion, someone would try to pick a fight with one of the big brothers. If that happened, it was Kane — not Kyle — who was more likely to throw down.

"When Kyle got into a fight, it was almost always to end the fight," Ciaramitaro said. "He never took a swing."

Kyle would talk the aggressor down. Sometimes, he'd wrap a bear-hug around some guy who wanted to step outside. As often as not, they'd end up becoming friends, Ciaramitaro said.


Contrary to that article's sub-heading of "Not a fighter"...

But Mike doesn't see the Huffs as gentle giants. The 39-year-old Seattle man traded blows with the twins in the 2004 bar brawl.

Always arriving and leaving together, the brothers often drank at the Lobo Saloon in Eastlake. Mike and his friends, a group he described as non-racist skinheads, were also regulars.

"We were into punk music and getting rowdy, but we aren't racists," Mike said. "We fought with racist skinheads."

On the evening of May 14, 2004, Mike and his friends were enjoying a favorite band, "Butcher," when one of the Huffs and one of Mike's out-of-town buddies started jawing at each other. Mike said he tried to calm the situation down and told Huff to stop talking to his friends.

"I tried to give him a friendly warning," he said.

Huff, Mike said, responded by saying, "I can talk to anyone. ... I'm not afraid of you."

The fight was on, quickly spilling outside the bar. Mike said Kyle threw him to the ground and punched him, breaking two ribs. The other Huff and the rest of the friends joined in.

"It was huge," he said. "Mayhem."

Both brothers were treated for cuts and bruises, according to the police report.

Asked by police how the fight began, Kane (Victim 1) "said he made a comment to one of the suspects in the 'mosh pit,' and apparently people took offense to the comment. Victim 1 told me he could not remember what the comment was."

Mike recalled that the brothers knew how to fight but they were badly outnumbered. In the report, the brothers said they were "jumped."

Both sides fueled the confrontation, Mike said, but his group finished it.


Then there is this strange flourish...

A neighbor looked out her window and saw Huff bend over to write "NOW" on the sidewalk. He would write the same cryptic message twice more before ditching the spray paint...


One other thing that website provides, three pdf's:
The panel report, the police transmission transcript, the affidavit/search warrant/inventory.
Also, the "suicide" (or rather, homicide) note he left, in the photos section.

Interesting line in the supposedly-authentic note to his brother:
"Maybe someday you'll be willing to help me..." Which does two things:
1) Implies that the two discussed a plan, but Kane was unwilling.
2) Establishes that Kane did not help Kyle.
Anyone know whether identical twins usually have identical handwriting?

Other bits from other sites:

Kyle did not excel academically, spelled poorly, but was considered studious.


There are, by my count, only two misspellings in the note, both involving an extraneous "e" before "-ing". Everything else is spelled correctly, and it's not the simplest diction I've ever read.

Was fined $530 with $350 suspended, and ordered to perform 50 hours of community service—partly served aiding Salvation Army.


Also mentions of both brothers' tastes for trenchcoats, metal.

Then there is the movie some douche tried to make:

Our aim is to accurately portray Kyle’s emotional downfall. This tragedy must no longer be regarded simply as a mystery as was so often portrayed in the popular media.

It is important to understand Kyle Huff and the emotional well that ran so deep he was willing die in order to murder half a dozen others.


Oh, so let's demystify the event by half-assedly psychoanalyzing the murderer? Douche:

http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2011/ ... movie/?amp

The comments underneath are a powerful testament to human decency.
They also contain a couple things of interest in the real pursuit of demystifying the event.

Kyle said, “This is my art”


So, that postmodernist wasn't completely off on a hayride of inappropriate abstraction, I guess.

Michael Hough on August 8, 2012 - 11:18 pm said:
They think they know everything about him but they dont, I am related to him by blood. His father is my grandfather who left my grandmother when she was just in her twenties, a japanese american who couldnt speak a lick of english. His dad was a peice of garbage who abandoned my dad and aunt, and left to eventually have Kyle and his brother. My condolences go out to the victims of the massacre, and Kyle because something in his life triggered him to mak this decision, he is human like us all.

Michael Hough

p.s. the last names are spelled differently because his mother changed their names after she and their dad split. It was originally Hough.


Back to the "Journey" article...

Willis Hough was a Vietnam veteran who suffered from "emotional difficulties" from the war, said Danny Ciaramitaro, 29, a longtime and close friend of the twins. At the time of the divorce, Hough was working as a seasonal maintenance mechanic at nearby Glacier National Park.


Is that this Willis Hough...?

5458 Holly Springs Drive
Houston, TX 77056
Find on map >>
Owner: WILLIS HOUGH
Land value: $1,029,223
Building value: $100
Total value for property: $1,029,323
Assessments for tax year: 2009
Prior land value: $1,029,223
Prior building value: $100
Prior total value for property: $1,029,323
Building area: 2,910 square feet
Land size: 19,608 square feet
State classification: Real, Residential, Single-Family
Neighborhood: Tanglwood
Year property was built: 1955
Condition / Desirability / Utility: Good
Cost and design: Economic misimprovement
Exterior wall: Brick / Veneer
Foundation type: Slab
Grade adjustment: B+
Heating / AC: Central Heat/AC
Physical condition: Average

http://www.city-data.com/harris-county/ ... z2Od4arKTY


Maybe not.

There's a listing for a Texas "Willis Hough" whose age is listed in the 50-54 range.
Which, given the Vietnam service, would be too young to be Huff's dad.
Is there any further legitimate non-speculative info on the dad?
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