A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

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A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:34 am

U.S. Nuremberg Prosecutor: "My Government Today Prepared to Do Something for Which We Hanged Germans"
By davidswanson - Posted on 08 March 2011

By Ben Ferencz

After listening to that great introduction, you must have expected someone to come in here ten feet tall. Well, I used to be ten feet tall, but the problems of the world wore me down.

You've heard from two courageous young authors, Sandy Davies and David Swanson. Everybody's young compared to me - I'm going to start my 92nd year in a couple of weeks. They have the courage to speak out and call the government liars and then list the specifics about it. In my introduction to Sandy’s book, Blood On Our Hands, I asked: "Whose blood? On whose hands?" It's your blood, young people. And whose hands? Well, those who are responsible.

What can I tell you that may be useful to you? I will try to give you my personal impression of how it is that we get ourselves into this predicament. I witnessed the horrors of World War Two. I was honorably discharged as a Sergeant of Infantry, and the War Department awarded me five battle stars for not having been killed or wounded. I had seen horrors which are really indescribable - the inhumanity of human beings to other human beings.

The first thing to understand is the mentality of those who made the war and the atrocities possible. The crimes of war are not limited to one particular country or one type of person. And I thought I'll talk to you about someone you've probably never heard of and a trial you've probably never heard of before. I was the Chief Prosecutor in a murder trial that convicted, 22 defendants convicted of murdering in cold blood over a million people, including hundreds of thousands of children, shot one at a time. What kind of people can commit such abominable crimes and for what reasons?

The lead defendant was a gentleman was SS General Otto Ohlendorf, Doctor Otto Ohlendorf, father of five children. He was polite and I'm sure he was kind to his cats and dogs. He sent his top secret reports to SS Headquarters in Berlin, saying how many Jews , Gypsies and others his men had killed in which town as the Wehrmnacht advanced into Poland and the Soviet Union. Unfortunately for them, we fond the complete daily top- secret reports of the massacres.

The quadripartite trial by the International Military Tribunal (IMT) at Nuremberg in 1946 was followed by a dozen lesser-known subsequent proceedings designed to reveal the involvement of broad segments of German society in the commission of Nazi crimes. The man in charge of these subsequent trials, which followed the IMT trial where Robert Jackson was the Chief Prosecutor, was a distinguished lawyer, General Telford Taylor. We discovered this set of reports from these killing squads called Einsatzgruppen (literally Action Groups), which was a name deliberately designed to disguise their mission, They were composed of four units totaling about 3000 men assigned to follow the German troops into Poland and Russia and annihilate all the Jews, as well a Gypsies and some others. I was in charge of the US army office in Berlin assigned to collect evidence for the additional Nuremberg trials. I presented the newly discovered evidence to General Taylor and urged that we start a separate trial against the Einsatzgruppen mass murderers. Taylor recognized the significance of the evidence but was hesitant. "We haven't prepared it. The Pentagon hasn't approved it. We don't have staff. We can't do it." I replied, "You can't let these murderers escape."

I had won a scholarship at Harvard Law School on my exam in criminal law. I had always been interested only in crime prevention as a career. Taylor asked: "Can you do it in addition to your other work?" And I said, "Sure!" So I was appointed Chief Prosecutor, I rested my case in two days. We gave the defendants copies of every piece of evidence we intended to produce. Their arguments in rebuttal took about five months. Their alibis didn't stand up.

The lead defendant, Dr. General Otto Ohlendorf, explained why it was that he reported that 90,000 Jews had been eliminated, they never used the word "murder" - He calmly declared that it was necessary in self-defense...

"What do you mean, 'self defense'? Germany attacked Poland, Norway, Holland, Sweden, and France, etc. Nobody attacked Germany. Where's the self-defense?"

"Well," he said, "we knew the Soviets were planning to attack us, so we had to attack them in self-defense."

"Well, why did you kill all the Jews?"

"Well, everybody knows the Jews were in favor of the Bolsheviks, so you have to kill all the Jews too."

"Why the little children? Why did you kill all the little children?"

"Well, if they grow up and they become enemies of Germany when they find out what happened to their parents that would be dangerous a threat to our long-range security, so we'd better get rid of them too."

He was saying to me, "Don't you see the logic of it all?" And so he explained that.

I said, "Didn't you have any qualms about killing all these people, little children and all that?"

"No," he said, "because we relied on the head of state, Hitler. He had more information than I had, and he told us that the Soviets planned to attack, so it was necessary in presumed self-defense."

In our military jargon, we call such assaults a "preemptive first strike", The US military policy today does not preclude first strike by the United States in order to prevent a presumed attack from another side. That Ohlendorf argument was considered by three American judges at Nuremberg, and they sentenced him and twelve others to death by hanging. So it's very disappointing to find that my government today is prepared to do something for which we hanged Germans as war criminals.

After long deliberation, I concluded that the best and perhaps the only way to prevent mass atrocities was to stop war-making itself. Stop war-making?. Well, how do you stop war-making? Is it possible?

I began to study that subject in great detail. My conclusions are laid bare in my books, articles and lectures,. They are available free on my web site. I learned that, if you want to have a peaceful society, any society, whether it is in Boca, or in the United States or in the world, you need three components. You need laws, to define what's permissible and what's not permissible; you need courts, in order to determine whether the laws have been violated and to serve as a forum for settlements and you need a system of effective enforcement.

To the extent that you have all three of those components, you have relative tranquility. To the extent that they're absent, you have disorder. . Now, in Boca for example, you prohibit murder but some murders still take place. But how many more murders would you have if you said, "Well, murder is a crime, but it's not punishable - there's no court to punish you"? Would you have more or less murders? Of course you'd have more murders, You don't have to be a criminologist to realize that if you want to deter a crime, you must persuade potential criminals that, if they commit crimes they will be hauled into court and be held accountable. It is the policy of the United States to do just the opposite as far as the crime of aggression is concerned.

Our government has gone to great pains to be sure that no American will be tried by any international criminal court for the supreme crime of illegal war-making. In condemning others for that crime we also proclaimed that the law must apply equally to everyone. It is carved on the entrance to our Supreme Court that promises "Equal Justice Under Law." Why dos the US foul its own nest by failure to uphold the principles of Nuremberg which inspired the world?

We must view contemporary problems in historical perspective. In the international sphere, international law is just beginning. Over half a century ago, I first began to suggest that we should have an international court to follow up after Nuremberg, The need was particularly obvious regarding the crime of aggression, since no nation or leader could be expected to indict himself. Powerful states are very reluctant to give up what they regard as sovereign rights to go to war whenever they think it serves their national interest. They do not yet recognize that sovereignty belongs to the people - as was proclaimed in the French and American revolutions.

Yet, we have failed to build the institutions which are absolutely essential for a peaceful world order. We are beginning to move in that direction. So don't be discouraged. I recall the names of people whom I knew, like Rene Cassin who won a Nobel Prize for his Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and Rafael Lemkin, who coined the word Genocide.. One individual, one brave person, can make a difference . We have two brave ones here, Sandy Davies and David Swanson, who've written good books. Give them to your friends. Give them to your enemies.

Progress is never made in a straight line. At the end of May 2010, I was invited by the German government to come to Berlin to be awarded the Iron Cross, which is their highest Medal of Honor. I had some hesitation in accepting it. On reflection, I decided that it would be unfair to rebuff the young generation for crimes committed by the Nazis 70 years ago. I was proud to accept the honor as a sign of recognition by Germany that the Nuremberg trials were fair and a contribution to world peace and human rights.

From Berlin I flew to Kampala, Uganda. to attend a two-week conference to review the Statute of the International Criminal Court. The United States had always been strongly opposed to including the crime of aggression within the jurisdiction of the ICC. They didn't want it listed as a crime at all. They did not succeed ,at least not completely. In 1998, the Rome Statute listed aggression as an international crime but did not give the court authority to try aggressors until certain onerous conditions were met;, including a new definition and added guarantees that Security Council rights would be respected. Despite concessions, the US voted against acceptance of the Rome Treaty when it was adopted overwhelmingly by 120 in favor with only 7 against, including the US and several that we had denounced as "Rogue States.".

As planned, the issue of aggression that had been deferred in Rome 1998 came up again in Kampala in 2010. It was sadly ironic that Germany, in awarding me their Iron Cross was, in effect, saying that the Nuremberg trials were right!" And what did the Americans say in Kampala? "Nuremberg? Forget it. That was then. Now is now. We don't want aggression in. We want it out." Now that scares a lot of people in the world because we are a very powerful nation. When the United States says "No" those who are recipients of economic and military aid from the United States, are not inclined to say "Yes". The issue of aggression was postponed again, this time to 2017 at the earliest. As matters now stand, the ICC has no authority to try anyone for the supreme crime.

Why is US taking a position which to many may seem hypocritical, arrogant and frightening.? Harold Koh, the State Department Legal Counsel is a very fine fellow and a good lawyer. He served as spokesman for the U.S. delegation of about 15 people. I had already written to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen. I noted that I heard a speech of his saying that he would rather deter a war than fight one. I agreed but pointed out that you can't deter a war at the same time that you tell the criminals that if they commit aggression there is no court competent to try them. A month passed before I received a reply. The Chairman praised me for my services to my country but noted that there were legal problems involved. He passed the buck to the State Department Legal Advisor.
.
The legal objections voiced by he United States are not persuasive. The ICC Statute says specifically that no one can be tried for aggression if his country has not ratified the Statute. Two-thirds of the US Senate has not agreed to reify the ICC Statute. If any nation is able and willing to try its own national for any crime listed in the ICC Statute, the ICC must give priority jurisdiction to that state. The ICC must also stop if the Security Council puts a hold on the proceedings. If the US is really worried about prejudiced ICC judges or unclear formulations all that is necessary is for Congress to add a sentence to our Federal Criminal Code, which says, "Any crime listed in the Statute of the International Criminal Court is punishable in the courts of the United States." US courts would have primary jurisdiction and the ICC would be cut out. Any competent lawyer can find fault and quibble about the language of any law. What is the US really worried about?

Conservatives like ex-Ambassador John Bolton and the late Senator Jesse Helms have said explicitly, "We're against the International Criminal Court. Who do they think they are to try us Americans? We are noble. We don't need or want foreign interference." They don't believe there is such a thing as international law and they don't want the rule of law to restrict their use of force to attain their particular goals. Politically, the US is a centrist country. To get two thirds to affirm a treaty is very difficult. I consider myself an American patriot. I came to America as an infant child, escaping from persecution and poverty. I'm eternally grateful to the United States. Tom Paine, who was buried near my home in New Rochelle made it clear that the duty of a patriot is not to say, "My country right or wrong," but, "I will support my country when it's right, but when it's wrong I will try to make it right." And that's what these two authors, Davies and Swanson have done

I've just about giving up on trying to persuade diplomats. I've given them a lot of pep talks. And they say, "Great! Great speech." I did it again at a Gala dinner before the opening at Kampala. I reminded them that over 50 million people had died in World War Two which prompted the world to create the UN and the Nuremberg Principles for a more humane rule of law. I asked by what right do we now throw that way and by what right do we betray the hopes of the young people that they won't have to go through the same thing?" Former Secretary-General Kofi Annan was there as well as the current S.G. Ban Ki Moon and many ambassadors. Many came up and slapped me n the back for a great speech. In the end, they followed the lead of the United States. Like the mice in Aesop's fables, mo one was ready to bell the cat. And so once more they postponed any further consideration of the crime of aggression until 2017 – at the earliest. Once again Power has triumphed over Reason.

So there we are. We have a difficult world, and really it's up to the young people to do something about it. Do what your heart tells you is the right thing - stop glorifying war. Do it as best you can. We are spending $2 billion every day on the military. We have a stronger military than every nation in the world combined. What for? No one wants the US to be the self-appointed policeman of he world. The country is on the verge of bankruptcy. We are denying people the elements of health and education by wasting our money on weapons of mass destruction that we cannot use. If you cannot reach and persuade politicians to reverse this disastrous policy, you may have to take to the streets. What else can we do?

America is a great democracy, and in every democracy it's normal, and it should be that way, that people have differences of opinion. But a democracy can only work if its people are being told the truth. You cannot run a country as Hitler did, feeding the public a pack of lies to frighten them that they are being threatened so it's justified to kill people you don't even know. You cannot do that. It's not logical, it's not decent, it's not moral and it's not helpful. When an unmanned bomber from a secret American airfield fires rockets into a little Pakistan or Afghan village and thereby kills or maims unknown numbers of innocent people, what is the effect of that?

Every victim will hate Americans forever and will be willing to die killing as many Americans as possible. Where there is no court of justice wild vengeance is the alternative.

I'm a law-man. I believe in the rule of law. I see that we are provoking what we condemn as dangerous terrorism. The country is terrified. The freedom from fear that President Roosevelt talked about doesn't exist in America today, Armies of airport guards check the shoes of old ladies to see if they've got a bomb hidden there. What have we come to? It's not my world any more. My future is behind me. But, for your sake, and for those who have grand-children, make up your mind. Speak up when you can. Talk to your Congressman. Talk to your friends. Talk to your enemies. It's up to the lawyers to lay down the rules and create the courts. We're doing that, slowly and with difficulty. We need help from the public. You are the public.

Good luck to you. Thank you.

From Ben Ferencz



Is the Federal Government a Drug-Induced Hallucination?
By davidswanson - Posted on 06 October 2013

You laugh, but that could be a side-effect. Consider:

The Capitol Police just murdered an unarmed mother fleeing her car on foot, declared her child "unharmed," and received the longest standing-ovation in Congress since Osama bin Laden's Muslim sea burial. Try holding your breath until Congress takes the standing ovation back, and you'll wish your were in the "Holy Land" having your house sprayed with "Skunk" artificial sewage by the Israeli military or in Old Town Alexandria tasting the air of the authentic raw sewage across the river until it's "treated" and spread on farms in the exurbs for the benefit of we the people.

Why? Because freedom.

Who would give all of this up in exchange for a reduced military costing less than $1 trillion per year? Well, maybe the dude who just cremated himself alive on the National Mall, it's hard to know. Or possibly me the next time a tourist asks me why they named it the National Mall knowing fully damn well that they'd confuse everyone who arrived expecting department stores and food courts.

This weekend, government programs aimed at slowing the starvation or other premature death of the least well off among us were closed, out of business, gone fishing. But the fucking football game between the Navy and the Air Force was an essential government service proudly played for the honor of "everyone fighting for this country" as one brainwashed midshipman put it. Did you know the top paid people in the U.S. military are all football coaches, and essential public servants?

President after president of countries 8% of us could find on a map are going to the United Nations to compare U.S. "exceptionalism" to Nazi Ubermenschen. Can you imagine the anti-American idiocy involved? But the last living prosecutor at Nuremberg, an American, has been saying the same thing. What'shis problem? And how could he dare if this weren't all hallucinatory?

President Obama was praised for his speech at the United Nations because he didn't threaten a first nuclear strike. That's the standard. Now he's getting credit for locking people up on ships outside of any system of law, because he can't have murdered them if he locked them up on ships. That's progress! If you squeeze down the passages of this psychedelic rabbit hole and peer out a window, you see a radically different world outside.

Switzerland is working on a maximum wage and a guaranteed basic income. But how many wars are they going to be able to join in after that colossal waste of funding? Their entire population is already suffering war deprivation. The Swiss can't expect the U.S. to pick up the tab for their wars while they make chocolate and don't even have the decency to spray sewage on anyone.

I once heard a likely lunatic propose that instead of paying farmers not to farm (and dumping sludge on their land) the U.S. government could pay weapons makers not to make weapons, stop giving and selling weapons to everybody else's governments, and ban U.S. troops and mercenaries from any distance greater than 500 miles from the United States. I say lunatic, because in this particular hallucination that we're all living through money multiplies itself if it's spent on killing people. A half a billion dollars for Solyndra is an outrageous waste that kills nobody and is lost forever. But a half billion dollars for two days -- give or take a speech by Congressman Cruz -- of blowing stuff up in Afghanistan is cost-free since the half billion dollars reproduces itself at the Federal Reserve which not only grows laboratory hamburgers but sells them to foreigners for national security resources misplaced beneath the wrong nations.

The winding down drawdown ending of the gradual scaling back of the wrapping up completed war on Afghanistan has eaten the wrong sort of size pill somehow. There are now almost twice as many U.S. troops in Afghanistan as when Barack Obama became president.

We're still spending over $10 million every hour (even during a government shutdown) for a war in Afghanistan that has now completed its 12th year and begins its 13th today. This spending drains rather than fueling the U.S. economy. Inflicting more war on Afghanistan has involved the killing of thousands of civilians. Experts in the U.S., British, and Afghan governments agree that this is making us less safe, not protecting us.

Why? Because Obama.

Captain Peace Prize is attempting what he failed at in Iraq: an agreement with a puppet to continue an "ended" war indefinitely. President Obama is trying to negotiate a deal with corrupt lame-duck President Hamid Karzai to keep some U.S. troops in Afghanistan, with immunity from prosecution for crimes and the right to continue attacking Afghans including with raids on their homes at night. This could mean nine major U.S. military bases remaining in Afghanistan at a huge cost in dollars, lives, safety, and environmental destruction for decades to come.

Oh, and the good, smart, humanitarian, not-Iraq war on Afghanistan is as illegal as whatever we consumed to induce this bizarre hallucination.

There's a place to scream I'm Not Going to Take It Anymore right here.

Al Jolson wrote a note to President Harding some years back now:

"The weary world is waiting for
Peace forevermore
So take away the gun
From every mother's son
And put an end to war."

And still, 86 new Adolf Hitler misidentifications later, they do not listen. Except that they listened on missiles into Syria. The two parties wanted the missiles. Raytheon's stock was through the roof. And we said no, no, and hell no, and go Dick Cheney yourselves. And the bipartisan agreement was stopped by our 90% opposition and 0.5% actively expressed outrage. And within a couple of weeks the zombie of pretended partisanship was back in the form of a shutdown dispute that, through a perfectly harmonious bipartisan agreement, didn't shut down the military or the NSA or the Navy v. Air Force football game.

Everything useful is shut down. Everything deadly is up and running. And a gang of truckers is on its way to DC to shut down the government. Make sense of any of this if you dare, and I'm willing to bet you've worn a Redskins shirt to the Holocaust museum.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby 82_28 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:21 pm

Apropos of probably nothing. The Redskins thing came up at the bar yesterday. A number of Redskins fans and others were present. I think we concluded that the name of the team should not be changed. Just for the fuck of it I went and found this:

In today’s Vox Tablet podcast, Ray Gustini, of the Atlantic Wire, and I figured out exactly how many NFL franchises are owned by Jews. The final answer is 10.5 or 11.5, depending on whether or not Denver Broncos owner Pat Bowlen is Jewish (Ray thinks he’s Catholic; I found no evidence of that, and found that he has donated to a Jewish cause; and, for what it’s worth, a number of anti-Semitic Websites say he is).

A few notes that did not make it into the final podcast, which was edited for time:

• Though I did not count them as being Jewish-owned, the Green Bay Packers almost certainly have Jewish owners: They are owned by the city of Green Bay, Wisconsin, which has at least one synagogue.

• New York Jets owner Woody Johnson (as in Johnson & Johnson) is not Jewish, but was a great friend to the Jews last season, when he successfully complained after the NFL scheduled his team’s first two home games during the High Holidays. Indeed, though the Giants are 50-percent Jewish-owned, I think you have to consider the Jets (whose prior owners were Jews, who come from the scrappy and heavily Jewish AFL, and whose current general manager is Jewish) the more Jewish New York-area franchise.

• The owner of the Detroit Lions is William Clay Ford. Ford is not Jewish, but is descended from one of history’s most influential anti-Semites.

• You should follow Ray’s Twitter feed, @VeryFakeAlDavis.

• Finally, Julian Edelman is not Jewish. Taylor Mays, however, is.

After the jump: The 11.5 (maybe 10.5) Jewish-owned NFL franchises, along with Ray’s and my pick for Tablet Magazine’s official team. (But really, listen to the podcast!)

Jewish franchises:
Atlanta Falcons
Cleveland Browns
Denver Broncos (maybe)
Miami Dolphins
Minnesota Vikings
New England Patriots
New York Giants (.5)
Oakland Raiders
Philadelphia Eagles
St. Louis Rams
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Washington Redskins

As for official team. It should be the Vikings, who are owned by the son of two Holocaust survivors; surely have a significant Jewish fanbase (The Land of 10,000 Lakes gave us Bob Dylan, the Coen Brothers, and Thomas Friedman, and are represented in the Senate by Al Franken); and have Jewish QB Sage Rosenfels on their roster. However, Brett Favre’s return has likely doomed Rosenfels to another year of no snaps, which if anything counts against them. While Ray’s and my honorable mention was the New England Patriots, and we would certainly fault no Jew for rooting for them, ultimately the spot went to … the Washington Redskins. Mazel tov!


http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/43941/m ... 0%99s-jews

I don't know if that means much. But essentially the Redskins thing and it being disrespectful to Native Americans is a non-starter. There is a larger than "usual" population of Native Americans in the Northwest. In fact many of our towns and cities here are named from Native words. Seattle itself is named after a Native American, Chief Sealth. Sure, I get the holocaust tip as far as the deplorable treatment and massacres of Natives, but to put the "Redskins Shirt" up as an example of the irony involved is itself ironic.

Si’ahl's mother Sholeetsa was Dkhw’Duw’Absh (Duwamish) and his father Shweabe was chief of the Dkhw’Suqw'Absh (the Suquamish tribe).[2] Si’ahl was born around 1780 on or near Blake Island, Washington. One source cites his mother's name as Wood-sho-lit-sa.[3] The Duwamish tradition is that Si’ahl was born at his mother's Dkhw’Duw’Absh village of Stukw on the Black River, in what is now the city of Kent, and that Si'ahl grew up speaking both the Dkhw’Duw’Absh and Dkhw’Suqw'Absh dialects of Lushootseed. Because Native descent among the Salish peoples was not solely patrilineal, Si'ahl inherited his position as chief of the Dkhw’Duw’Absh or Duwamish Tribe from his maternal uncle.[2] In later years, Si’ahl claimed to have seen the ships of the Vancouver Expedition as they explored Puget Sound.

Si’ahl earned his reputation at a young age as a leader and a warrior, ambushing and defeating groups of enemy raiders coming up the Green River from the Cascade foothills, and attacking the Chimakum and the S'Klallam, tribes living on the Olympic Peninsula. Like many of his contemporaries, he owned slaves captured during his raids. He was tall and broad for a Puget Sound native at nearly six feet; Hudson's Bay Company traders gave him the nickname Le Gros (The Big One). He was also known as an orator; and when he addressed an audience, his voice is said to have carried from his camp to the Stevens Hotel at First and Marion, a distance of 3⁄4 miles (1.2 km).[3]

He took wives from the village of Tola'ltu just southeast of Duwamish Head on Elliott Bay (now part of West Seattle). His first wife La-Dalia died after bearing a daughter. He had three sons and four daughters with his second wife, Olahl.[3] The most famous of his children was his first, Kikisoblu or Princess Angeline. Si’ahl was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church, and given the baptismal name Noah, probably in 1848 near Olympia, Washington.[4] The meaning of this ceremony may be called into question by his references to his people's gods in his most famous Talk (below).

For all his skill, Si’ahl was gradually losing ground to the more powerful Patkanim of the Snohomish when white settlers started showing up in force. When his people were driven from their traditional clamming grounds, Si’ahl met Maynard in Olympia; they formed a friendly relationship useful to both. Persuading the settlers at Duwamps to rename the town Seattle, Maynard established their support for Si’ahl's people and negotiated relatively peaceful relations among the tribes.

Si’ahl kept his people out of the Battle of Seattle (1856). Afterwards, he was unwilling to lead his tribe to the reservation established, since mixing Duwamish and Snohomish was likely to lead to bloodshed. Maynard persuaded the government of the necessity of allowing Si’ahl to remove to his father's longhouse on Agate Passage, 'Old Man House' or Tsu-suc-cub. Si’ahl frequented the town named after him, and had his photograph taken by E. M. Sammis in 1865.[3] He died June 7, 1866, on the Suquamish reservation at Port Madison, Washington.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Seattle

If the Seahawks renamed itself the Seattles and Seattle renamed itself as the Seahawks so the city would now be known as Seahawk and the football team the Seattles, it would in fact be the same thing. I certainly see the point, but honestly I think it is stupid. In fact I look at it as more of an honor more than anything else -- a steamrolled people by a bunch of assholes which just so happens to have a permanent memory. Perhaps I would get behind renaming them the Natives or something, but that would open a whole 'nother can O worms.

When I was in high school, named Arapahoe HS, our mascot was a warrior. We were the Arapahoe Warriors. But for years, way before me, the logo was like a cartoon logo of "an Indian". I think it was possibly the only school assembly I ever went to, in fact. The school and the Arapaho (spelled correctly) tribe met in order to make the logo more respectful. So they brought a huge contingent of "their people" down and they had a big dance on our gym floor, gave speeches and rendered prayers. This also was back when you were allowed to smoke on school grounds. Anyhow, long story short, the school allowed them to design the logo and have apparently, from what I know, have remained close with the school.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby 82_28 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:27 pm

Oh and yeah, I wondered about that game between military football "foes" too given the "shutdown" on Saturday.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:04 pm

Take a break from the Jew-counting and give me a break. This is such a minor thing to change the names of these teams. Why the fuck not? Don't Cleveland and Washington have anything else they could pretend to be proud of?

Image

Of course, this is a politically correct cartoon. It gets the racial caricature of the Cleveland team's logo right. But if these other fictional teams existed in Washington and had a name corresponding to "Redskins" they would, as you all know, be called the Chinks, Darkies and Wetbacks.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:08 pm

Image

Image
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby Nordic » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:17 pm

Having a hard time figuring out what the "Redskins" flap has to do with the OP.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby brainpanhandler » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:22 pm

JackRiddler » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:04 pm wrote:Don't Cleveland and Washington have anything else they could pretend to be proud of?


Moses Cleaveland?

wikipedia wrote:At Buffalo a delegation of Mohawk nation and Seneca tribe Indians opposed their entrance into the Western Reserve, claiming it as their territory, but waived their rights on the receipt of goods valued at $1,200. The expedition then coasted along the shore of Lake Erie, and landed, on July 4, 1796, at the mouth of Conneaut Creek, which they named Port Independence. The Indians were propitiated with gifts of beads and whiskey, and allowed the surveys to proceed. General Cleaveland, with a surveying party, coasted along the shore and on July 22, 1796, landed at the mouth of the Cuyahoga River. He ascended the bank, and, beholding a beautiful plain covered with a luxuriant forest-growth, divined that the spot where he stood, with the river on the west and Lake Erie on the north, was a favorable site for a city.
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:24 pm

Nordic » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:17 pm wrote:Having a hard time figuring out what the "Redskins" flap has to do with the OP.



it's the very last line in the OP :)

Everything useful is shut down. Everything deadly is up and running. And a gang of truckers is on its way to DC to shut down the government. Make sense of any of this if you dare, and I'm willing to bet you've worn a Redskins shirt to the Holocaust museum.
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby Carol Newquist » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:39 pm

And still, 86 new Adolf Hitler misidentifications later, they do not listen. Except that they listened on missiles into Syria.


Nope, they didn't listen on that either, although they played it like they did. Just like they didn't listen on Vietnam, although revisionists like to pretend the protesting brought the war to an end. It didn't.

As for the name of the football team....the Chief has spoken and I trust his word more than Obama's.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/05/15/american-indian-chief-waste-of-time-to-argue-over-redskins-name/


American Indian Chief: ‘Waste of Time’ to Argue Over Redskins Name

Leaders of Native American tribes in Virginia say they don’t have an issue with the name of Washington’s professional football team and have bigger fish to fry.

Their admissions parallel a recent Associated Press/GfK poll that shows nearly 80 percent of all Americans are not offended by the name.

And the other 20 percent appear to be out of luck after team owner Daniel Snyder emphatically stated the name would not ever change.

Robert Green, Chief of the Patawomeck Tribe tells the Richmond Times-Dispatch the name isn’t an issue for the vast majority of members of his tribe.

“About 98 percent of my tribe is Redskins fans, and it doesn’t offend them, either,” Green said.

The team is currently fighting off claims by five petitioners that argue the name “redskins” is disparaging to a significant population of American Indians. That case was heard by the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board in March.

If the board, which lawyers say could take up to a year before issuing a ruling, finds in favor of the petitioners, the franchise could lose federal trademark protection.

The Redskins won a comparable case filed in 1992 after years of legal wrangling.

All signs currently point to the plaintiffs fighting an uphill battle to change the name, which has been in place since 1933 when the Redskins were based in Boston.

“I’m a Redskins fan, and I don’t think there’s any intention for (the nickname) to be derogatory,” said Kevin Brown, Chief of the Pamunkey Tribe of Virginia.

Like Green, Brown says the majority of his tribe takes no offense to the name. However, he says the tribe respects the feelings of those who do have an issue with it.

And just as a fan he adds: “I like the uniforms. I like the symbol.”

The Chief of the Rappahannock Tribe took a more blunt approach with her opinion, dismissing the debate as largely irrelevant.

“There are so many more issues that are important for the tribe than to waste time on what a team is called. We’re worried about real things, and I don’t consider that a real thing,” G. Anne Richardson told the newspaper.

“We’re more worried about our kids being educated, our people housed, elder care and the survival of our culture. We’ve been in that survival mode for 400 years. We’re not worried about how some ball team is named.”
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:52 pm

Carol Newquist » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:39 pm wrote:
And still, 86 new Adolf Hitler misidentifications later, they do not listen. Except that they listened on missiles into Syria.


Nope, they didn't listen on that either, although they played it like they did. Just like they didn't listen on Vietnam, although revisionists like to pretend the protesting brought the war to an end. It didn't.


Sorry, that is not the "revisionist" view, it's what everyone understood happened at the time. You are the one presenting the "revisionist" view -- or the reactionary doctrine of popular helplessness, if you prefer the shorter term.

At the time, everyone understood that the protests had spilled over to the troops and a ground campaign was no longer possible, what with 500 officers being killed by their own troops and most GIs no longer willing to engage the enemy outside their own forts.

The protests also forced the institution of a draft number system, which was intended to reduce the protests, and ultimately the end of the draft. So the war went on for three additional years of "Vietnamization" - meaning more genocidal bombing campaigns. And 45 years later, wankers arrive to piss on the antiwar movements of that time.

.
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:53 pm

he does not speak for all Native Americans....

Redskins name roundly criticized as racist during Smithsonian event
By Kelyn Soong Capital News Service | Posted 8 months ago

The Washington Redskins team name was lambasted as “racist” and “demeaning” during a daylong symposium Thursday at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of the American Indian.

The symposium, entitled “Racist Stereotypes and Cultural Appropriation in American Sports,” featured Native American activists, museum administrators and local journalists who discussed the impact of team names like the Redskins on Native Americans.

“There is a very insidious quality...of viewing Native Americans as savages, as playthings,” said N. Bruce Duthu, a professor of Native American Studies at Dartmouth University.

The panel, which included several Native Americans, shared their personal experiences with racism and criticized Washington Redskins owner Dan Snyder and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell for their reluctance to change the team name and logo.

The heated debate over the Redskins name goes back several decades. A case that challenged the name reached the U.S. Supreme Court.

Organizers said the Redskins declined invitations to attend the symposium. Tony Wyllie, the Washington Redskins’ senior vice president of communications, declined to comment on the team’s name.

Ben Nighthorse Campbell, a former Colorado senator, called Redskins head coach Mike Shanahan a “personal friend” and said he has a problem with the team name, not the team.

“Americans are ingrained to be loyal to their team,” he said. “But some names just degrade all of us.”

Campbell, who became the first Native American to serve in the U.S. Senate in more than 60 years when he was elected in 1992, introduced a bill in Congress in early 1990s banning the use of the term Redskins on federally owned land.

Panelist Suzan Shown Harjo, president of the Washington-based Morning Star Institute, also attempted to get lawmakers to change the team name.

In 1992, she entered a lengthy court battle with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office to void the Redskins trademark but lost in 2009 when the Supreme Court ruled that the plaintiffs waited too long to file their original case. There is another hearing filed by younger plaintiffs scheduled for March 7.

Lawyers for the Redskins have insisted the name is meant to honor Native Americans, but the panelists strongly disagreed with that stance.

“Sports is a common bond, but I cannot in good conscience support the [Washington, D.C.] football team,” said Robert Holden of the National Congress of American Indians.

“I don’t think the owners understand that they’re not honoring us,” he added.

Although the Redskins have held onto their name, many colleges have eliminated their Native American mascots and team names that some viewed as racist.

In 2005, the NCAA announced it would ban the use of Native American mascots during postseason tournaments after its research found that the images had “overwhelming evidence of potential harm.”

Delise O’Meally, an NCAA representative, said the initial responses to the ban were mostly negative and hostile. But support for the decision eventually grew.

“My personal integrity was questioned at first,” she said, before mentioning the response that stuck with her the most. She said a young Native American woman told her, “You’ve made the right decision.”

Native American activists have also found an ally in Washington, D.C., mayor Vincent Gray, who said if the team wants to return to the District there should discussions about changing the name. Gray also avoided saying “Redskins” in his State of the District speech this week, instead referring to “our Washington football team.”

For one young Washington Redskins fan at the symposium, the discussion made him rethink his support for the team’s name.

Andre Holland, 20, of Annapolis, arrived at the event with his Anne Arundel Community College classmates wearing earmuffs and hat with the Redskins logo. He received strange looks throughout the day.

“When I first came in here, I felt hate automatically,” he said. “I came in here with the wrong mindset. I thought, ‘Forget them, I’m a Washington Redskins fan.’”

After an older Native American man asked Holland to remove his hat, he said he finally realized that the name was harmful.

“That whole time sitting there listening [the panel] made me think, ‘Who am I to keep wearing this stuff if it’s racist?’”
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby Carol Newquist » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:57 pm

he does not speak for all Native Americans....


Maybe not, but then again, neither do you. The difference is, he's Native American, you're not. His opinion therefore has more clout than your opinion.
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby Carol Newquist » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:04 pm

http://www.fpri.org/ww/0108.200006.garfinkle.mythedopportunities.html

Mythed Opportunities: The Truth About Vietnam Anti-War Protests

The protesters’ myth is really more interesting. With every passing year one gets the impression that virtually all Sixties types were at antiwar protests. (They were all at Woodstock, too.) It has become unassailable gospel that the protests were noble and effective. They may have been nobly intended, but there is nothing but aging egos and pure wind to sustain the notion that they were effective in stopping or shortening the war. There is evidence, however, that the protests lengthened the war and that more people were killed on account of them.

How so? Political scientists talk about the phenomenon of a “negative follower group,” which is defined basically as any group that ticks others off to the point that they become the friend of that group’s enemy. All the data we have from the time, and since, show that the obscenity, illegality, and raging anti-patriotism of the antiwar protesters made them the most hated group in America during the late 1960s and early 1970s. When police beat up protesters in the park across from the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in 1968, most people who were watching on television sympathized with the police.

The backlash had significant repercussions on the national political scene. Without the antiwar protests, which were associated in the minds of the “silent majority” with a militarized black power movement that had somehow metastasized from the civil rights movement, George Wallace could never have become a national political figure, if only for a while. Nor would Richard Nixon have won the White House in 1968. Furthermore, the antiwar movement undermined the Democratic Party and hurt Hubert Humphrey’s bid for the presidency in a very tight election.) The political reaction to the radical antiwar protests aided both the Johnson and Nixon administrations’ efforts to manage growing public disquiet over the war. More Americans would have opposed the war sooner had they not been put off by radical protest tactics.

The truth is that the antiwar movement actually helped elect Richard Nixon to the presidency not just once, but twice. By 1972, the movement had gained enough power in the disheveled Democratic Party to see that George McGovern was nominated instead of a more mainstream candidate who might have kept the party’s labor and middle-class constituency intact. And who believes that a Humphrey administration or a Humphrey-like Democratic administration that would have begun in 1969 or 1973 would have fought the war in Vietnam with the intensity that the Nixon administration did, looking for a “peace with honor” that fell to ashes on April 30, 1975?

Yes, the American people did turn against the war, but not because of protests in the streets. They turned against it because eventually the costs seemed to outweigh the benefits. Moreover, they turned against it when the leadership of the country lost its will to continue. Before Lyndon Johnson’s famous March 31, 1968, speech throwing in the towel — personally as well as in terms of Vietnam policy— no poll showed that a majority of Americans was against the war. Indeed, what the administration feared most was increasing pressure to escalate. As John Mueller put it in a brilliant book in 1973, the American people basically followed their leaders into war, and then, when the leadership changed its mind, followed them back out again (War, Presidents, and Public Opinion, published by John Wiley). Moreover, of all the serious survey data done at the time— the only empirical data base there is to study this aspect of the issue — not one poll indicated that antiwar protests were even a tertiary reason in the thinking of those who turned against the war (see my Telltale Hearts, chap. 1).

What do these myths and their longevity tell us? First, that good intentions do not always turn into good consequences. Anyone surprised by this statement needs a remedial history course, and possibly a good clap on the ears. Second, that personal myths, which are born of youth and form the foundations of adult personalities, are almost completely immune to the power of facts and logic. Third, that controversial history — history speckled with blood, that is— is always read with the needs of the present uppermost in mind. Fourth, that there is no monopoly in the mistaken interpretation of any historical event. Many errors, many myths, can operate simultaneously — each of them serving “needs” other than truth.
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:06 pm

Carol Newquist » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:57 pm wrote:
he does not speak for all Native Americans....


Maybe not, but then again, neither do you. The difference is, he's Native American, you're not. His opinion therefore has more clout than your opinion.


AND YOU ARE NATIVE AMERICAN? but I won't know that just like YOU don't know my full heritage
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: A Redskins Shirt At The Holocaust Museum

Postby Carol Newquist » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:14 pm

AND YOU ARE NATIVE AMERICAN? but I won't know that just like YOU don't know my full heritage


I don't claim to be one.....haven't claimed to be one, and I have no stake in this. I'm neither for or against the name. But the Chief, who is a Native American, has said in no uncertain terms that he doesn't have a problem with it and doesn't want to see the name changed....and he goes further to say 98% of his tribe feel the same way.
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