What constitutes Misogyny?

[OP ED]

OP ED haz ideas.

First, misogyny can be both perpetrated [Sarah Palin] and experienced [all "unmanly" men] by members of both genders, although it should be a given that, by definitions, persons containing more feminine in them would experience derision towards its manifestation in a more direct fashion.

Males, OP ED included, even [especially] in the all-male working environment will encounter sexist or merely stupid views of women on a daily basis emanating from the employers and fellow workers. This can hurt even the feelings of relatively stoic men to hear of their mothers, daughters and other loved ones degraded as a "type" of person. This could also, depending on how exclusively one wishes to define misogyny, take the form of ill-treatment of males for acting in manners either perceived or realistically conforming to traditionally stereotyped views of women, that is, unmanliness as it is rigorously accepted in the all-male american workforce. [OP ED works in the automobile service industry, there are NO females working in OP ED's building]

which leads OP ED to:

I object to the exclusion of men from the area of child-rearing and care, and the pressure put on men to work for money, to win bread for women, to work to support children while women get to be with the children more, and so on.

Welcome to Fantasy Island, where women refuse to allow men to care for the children and every man is a breadwinner turning over his paycheque to his wife. Honestly Stephen Morgan, you must be able to look around you and see many people who do not fall into the narrow, old-fashioned pigeonhole you've just cited as being 'normal.' That being said I also object to men being excluded from child rearing and care. I don't see where that is happening, though.

there is a significant and consistently growing body of evidence to indicate that males who, for example, make use of the FAMILY MEDICAL LEAVE ACT to be with their baby-mommas during late pregnancy, childbirth and afterwards [etc] have been experiencing mysterious [and illegal] difficulties at work, especially with regard to timely promotions and pay-increases AND even in such cases where these males, even with the FML time off factored in, have spent greater (total) time working in their profession. This is male-on-male misogyny, or something similar, whatdayawannacallit[?].... in short: Men who wish to spend time with children are seen as "not taking their careers seriously" and are subsequently punished for doing so, often by not being rewarded as per usual standards. OP ED is at the laundry stop and does not have statistics currently available, but you'd think that these sorts of things happening would not really shock feminists very much at this late stage.

the data is not yet conclusive, considering that the U.S.A. hasn't even had these laws for very long. But OP ED would be surprised to discover that OP ED is wrong.

[OP ED always is]

[Project Willow]

OK, but do you place women and men on the same footing? If so, why?

I do place both groups on the same footing. We are 99+% genetically the same, to me that constitutes no difference.

I assume you've misinterpreted my question. Do you deny, as do some other males here, that we live in a patriarchal society? Do you believe that women exercise as much power as men, and do not currently experience any form of oppression?

....

I'm sorry you feel such a way, I do feel like I'm listening to your perspective and reflection my personal opinions about them by posting. By help us, I mean that misogyny is a two party occurrence. Without a male perpetrator, no misogynistic act can be completed. Until men understand and consciously realize when they are performing a misogynistic act there will be no way to deal with it. What I've gleamed from this thread so far is that the labeling is done by the victim, making this task all the more difficult, maybe impossible (?)

CW,
That is an incredibly tortured reading of what WakeUpAndLive wrote.
-ST

There are innumerable defenses a man might erect in order to continue his guiltless enjoyment of the privileges of being male in this culture. One important defense is maintaining a sufficient blindness to the suffering of women. We've seen in this thread some men go into angst-ridden break downs, whose defenses were challenged to the point of losing some of their compensatory blindness. Of late, three of you guys, (and I do indeed presume your offerings are in service to a similar defensiveness), have landed on this idea that women can't possibly be trusted to define what constitutes misogyny. I just don't have any other response to that idea, besides laughter, atm, sorry, except that it flies in the face of conventional wisdom regarding the process of social justice for any oppressed group, because it's an absolutely absurd notion, not to mention, you know, sort of cruel, I hate to say. Thankfully, C_W's hospital analogy was both funny and effective.

[WakeUpAndLive]

OK, but do you place women and men on the same footing? If so, why?

I do place both groups on the same footing. We are 99+% genetically the same, to me that constitutes no difference.

I assume you've misinterpreted my question. Do you deny, as do some other males here, that we live in a patriarchal society? Do you believe that women exercise as much power as men, and do not currently experience any form of oppression?

No I do not deny that we live in a patriarchal society. I do believe that some women exercise as much power as men, but that males exercise their power more often and in a larger variety of ways. I think both parties experience oppression, especially outside of our own countries, but that women do experience it more.

I'm sorry you feel such a way, I do feel like I'm listening to your perspective and reflection my personal opinions about them by posting. By help us, I mean that misogyny is a two party occurrence. Without a male perpetrator, no misogynistic act can be completed. Until men understand and consciously realize when they are performing a misogynistic act there will be no way to deal with it. What I've gleamed from this thread so far is that the labeling is done by the victim, making this task all the more difficult, maybe impossible (?)

CW,
That is an incredibly tortured reading of what WakeUpAndLive wrote.
-ST

There are innumerable defenses a man might erect in order to continue his guiltless enjoyment of the privileges of being male in this culture. One important defense is maintaining a sufficient blindness to the suffering of women. We've seen in this thread some men go into angst-ridden break downs, whose defenses were challenged to the point of losing some of their compensatory blindness. Of late, three of you guys, (and I do indeed presume your offerings are in service to a similar defensiveness), have landed on this idea that women can't possibly be trusted to define what constitutes misogyny. I just don't have any other response to that idea, besides laughter, atm, sorry, except that it flies in the face of conventional wisdom regarding the process of social justice for any oppressed group, because it's an absolutely absurd notion, not to mention, you know, sort of cruel, I hate to say. Thankfully, C_W's hospital analogy was both funny and effective.

[/quote]

I am not guiltless, in fact I'll bring up an example that I've thought about countless times while visiting this thread because it expresses my feelings towards this type of behavior. I was in Florida at a male dominated trade show (which btw the men at these shows are highly misogynistic being in the automotive industry). It was late and we were taking a couple clients out to dinner at a Japanese restaurant, one of those Tepan places where they cook the food right in front of you. It was a party of 7 and we were placed with a young, recently married couple. The group we were with and the drinks involved didn't make the situation any better, but backhanded jokes about marriage, sex, and just about anything was mentioned. I will admit that a couple of the jokes I laughed at (so did the one woman at the table), but the majority of them were very sexist and honestly it made me uncomfortable, because I kept wondering how she must have felt during all of this. I feel bad I didn't say anything, but I did try to jump to her defense when the situation permitted. Either way at the end of the day I felt disgusted having to be a part of that experience, especially seeing how the other males acted like nothing was wrong. I wish we weren't living in a world like this, I wish people could feel remorse for others, but we have been desensitized to our emotions, especially as males, and I feel it helps aid in this lack of empathy.

To touch on some of your points, I think women need to be a part of defining misogyny, and a major one at that. I'm not saying that I don't trust women alone, I am saying that IT LEAVES THE POSSIBILITY open for abuse, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER GROUP WITH SOLE AUTHORITY. I'm not singling out women, because I feel many groups who gain ultimate authority over something abuse its power, even if it may start out as a positive influence (churches are a good example of this, being the "ultimate authority" on god.) I'm really sorry you feel I do not trust women that is far from the case.

[Canadian_watcher]

Thank you once again, Willow, for noticing my contribution and for your eloquence on this topic.

-------

OP ED haz ideas.

... This could also, depending on how exclusively one wishes to define misogyny, take the form of ill-treatment of males for acting in manners either perceived or realistically conforming to traditionally stereotyped views of women, that is, unmanliness as it is rigorously accepted in the all-male american workforce.

I see this, too - earlier in this thread we discussed the idea that maybe misogyny is more about a hatred of the feminine rather than of women, per se. This is possibly evidenced by gay-bashing, the derision of male hippie-types as being 'faggots,' the reason there are so relatively few males in the 'female' professions, etc.

Here are the opening lines in the CD version of Madonna's "What It Feels Like For a Girl:"

Girls can wear jeans,
Cut their hair short,
Wear Shirts and Boots.
'Cause it's okay to be a boy.
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading -
because you think [i]being a girl is degrading.[/i]

Men who wish to spend time with children are seen as "not taking their careers seriously" and are subsequently punished for doing so, often by not being rewarded as per usual standards.[/i]

So you see how it feels then, right? Women have been fighting this very battle forever. FOR EVER. Morgan keeps pointing out how it is still very much happening when he reminds us all of the perfectly reasonable explanation that males earn more than females in any given profession - that reason being that men don't take off time to care for children, and therefore have more experience on the job.

OP ED is at the laundry stop and does not have statistics currently available, but you'd think that these sorts of things happening would not really shock feminists very much at this late stage.

Right.. I don't have any stats on the shock value of what you're saying on the average feminist mind either. I can speak for myself though and tell you that it is not at all surprising to me.

I wonder though, OP ED, if you made this point to counter or to support the arguments thus far put forward that women are at a disadvantage in our culture?

[Canadian_watcher]

@ WUaL :

Thank for your last post - that situation you were in is one of those very,very awkward and I think very, very damaging types of situations that many of us (almost ALL?) have been in probably more than once in our lives. I know I have - and I know that there have been times when I haven't spoken up. It's this strange balance, isn't it?

There is a power dynamic at play in the situation that you describe which has not only social but very real economic implications - at least for the individuals inside of it.

What I would like to bring to you attention is this:

What if the woman from that evening had come on here and described how utterly powerless she felt at that table that night, instead of you doing her reporting here for her? Could you believe her story? What if she went further than you are willing to go and tell you that she felt violated right to the core of her being? I put myself in that woman's shoes and it is not an exaggeration to say that that's how I would have felt.

You were not her - and although you could see many of the negative implications of those jokes and you felt discomfort, you can't know what it is to be sitting there as the brunt of the joke, swallowing your own humanity so as not to offend the others who are laughing as they negate you. This betrayal of SELF is a different thing than your experience of that night.

That's all I'm asking of you here - believe women when they tell you their experience. Why not?

[Stephen Morgan]

I am not guiltless, in fact I'll bring up an example that I've thought about countless times while visiting this thread because it expresses my feelings towards this type of behavior. I was in Florida at a male dominated trade show (which btw the men at these shows are highly misogynistic being in the automotive industry). It was late and we were taking a couple clients out to dinner at a Japanese restaurant, one of those Tepan places where they cook the food right in front of you. It was a party of 7 and we were placed with a young, recently married couple. The group we were with and the drinks involved didn't make the situation any better, but backhanded jokes about marriage, sex, and just about anything was mentioned. I will admit that a couple of the jokes I laughed at (so did the one woman at the table), but the majority of them were very sexist and honestly it made me uncomfortable, because I kept wondering how she must have felt during all of this. I feel bad I didn't say anything, but I did try to jump to her defense when the situation permitted.

You've seriously never been in a situation where a group of girls indulge in derogatory humour against men? Or encountered the casual misandry in everyday female conversation? I've certainly encountered it that many women have no qualms about openly stating their belief that you're stupid or incapable because you're a man and treating it like a joke. Or do you just think what women do can't be wrong, or that women deserve greater consideration?

[Canadian_watcher]

You've seriously never been in a situation where a group of girls indulge in derogatory humour against men? Or encountered the casual misandry in everyday female conversation? I've certainly encountered it that many women have no qualms about openly stating their belief that you're stupid or incapable because you're a man and treating it like a joke. Or do you just think what women do can't be wrong, or that women deserve greater consideration?

ummmm, I think WUaL was sticking to the topic. Again, we know that men are also mistreated but that's not the topic here. (unless they are being mistreated for being feminine, which may or may not qualify in this thread)

[OP ED]

Men who wish to spend time with children are seen as "not taking their careers seriously" and are subsequently punished for doing so, often by not being rewarded as per usual standards.[/i]

So you see how it feels then, right?

well, no, not really. i can only see certain dimensions of it. There are still the inborn and culturally acquired differences at play which must be considered. That is, there is a certain part of me that is still inclined to agree with the oppressive belief that my wife should take care of children and that i should pay for them.

this despite knowing better in a purely intellectual sense and also possessing the intuitve grasp that something is being withheld from the both of us whenever we either choose or are forced to participate in this belief system.

Women have been fighting this very battle forever. FOR EVER. Morgan keeps pointing out how it is still very much happening when he reminds us all of the perfectly reasonable explanation that males earn more than females in any given profession - that reason being that men don't take off time to care for children, and therefore have more experience on the job.

Morgan is also wrong with regard to some of his assumptions in this instance. [surprise] According to a veritable shitload of studies, once the time off taken for actually having the kid [a couple months at most in the majority of cases] is removed (and often when it isn't, as for politicians and lawyers where men take lots of time off for golfing and whatnot), underpaid women continue to be underpaid even when they have significantly more work experience and better attendance rates, etc. I can come back with hard numbers on this in a couple of days if any of you would like. It is not exactly controversial or even difficult to demonstrate.
[at least in the United States, honestly, my United Kingdom numbers are rarer and thinner, given my Amerocentric focus, but they tend to be similar]

I wonder though, OP ED, if you made this point to counter or to support the arguments thus far put forward that women are at a disadvantage in our culture?

neither.

OP ED was talking specifically about males being disadvantaged by misogyny and other assumptions that societies, and especially powerful policiers, make about "traditional" gender roles. it is therefore on-topic, even while not addressing specifically the disadvantage of women, which OP ED assumes is sort of obvious. OP ED's point was therefore not related at all to women directly, but rather an attempt to demonstrate that Misogyny can be (certainly is) damaging to the lives and livelihoods of both sexes and should therefore constitute a major concern for anyone seeking to establish an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.

...

OP ED hopes that clears up OP ED's position a little.

[Canadian_watcher]

That is, there is a certain part of me that is still inclined to agree with the oppressive belief that my wife should take care of children and that i should pay for them.

probably because it's easier - and I don't mean in the which-is-easier-caring-for-children-or-working-full-time way, I mean it in the inertia-type way. Status quo, boat-rocking, sleeping dogs, etc.

... underpaid women continue to be underpaid even when they have significantly more work experience and better attendance rates, etc.

no argument, and my vote would be not to trouble yourself with digging up stats.

OP ED was talking specifically about males being disadvantaged by misogyny and other assumptions that societies, and especially powerful policiers, make about "traditional" gender roles. it is therefore on-topic, even while not addressing specifically the disadvantage of women, which OP ED assumes is sort of obvious. OP ED's point was therefore not related at all to women directly, but rather an attempt to demonstrate that Misogyny can be (certainly is) damaging to the lives and livelihoods of both sexes and should therefore constitute a major concern for anyone seeking to establish an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.

[OP ED]

That is, there is a certain part of me that is still inclined to agree with the oppressive belief that my wife should take care of children and that i should pay for them.

probably because it's easier - and I don't mean in the which-is-easier-caring-for-children-or-working-full-time way, I mean it in the inertia-type way. Status quo, boat-rocking, sleeping dogs, etc.

indeed. OP ED does not need an in-depth study in order to know how OP ED's bosses view this issue. OP ED listens to how they talk (about women and children and work) everyday. OP ED also knows how much time they take off for these things.

[of course, this isn't even always the only or even primary problem. in a situation wherein someone manages to be as poor as my lady and myself while also working full-time; it simply would not be possible for the both of us to take off all the time we may be legally permitted to take and somehow manage to still pay all of our bills]

[it wouldn't be about whether one or the other of us had a greater desire to take part in caring for children. rather both of us have little choice but to be working every moment that we are physically capable of doing so in order to survive]

but aside from the other concerns mentioned above, OP ED knows how well alternative opinions go over at work. OP ED's tendencies to radical politics and moderate blasphemy already make OP ED not particularly popular among middle and upper management [although OP ED has considered fostering a cult among the proletariat] and in an industry wherein there is such a high turnover rate and a plethora of volk prepared to snatch up any available position at a moment's notice (this is Detroit, unemployed workers with automobile experience are infinitely surplus) ...well, OP ED knows better than to try to be very different if OP ED wishes to continue enjoying the benefits of paid work, like, y'know, eating and stuff.

[WakeUpAndLive]

What I would like to bring to you attention is this:

What if the woman from that evening had come on here and described how utterly powerless she felt at that table that night, instead of you doing her reporting here for her? Could you believe her story? What if she went further than you are willing to go and tell you that she felt violated right to the core of her being? I put myself in that woman's shoes and it is not an exaggeration to say that that's how I would have felt.

You were not her - and although you could see many of the negative implications of those jokes and you felt discomfort, you can't know what it is to be sitting there as the brunt of the joke, swallowing your own humanity so as not to offend the others who are laughing as they negate you. This betrayal of SELF is a different thing than your experience of that night.

That's all I'm asking of you here - believe women when they tell you their experience. Why not?

The thing is I believe many people feel those emotions at one point or another in their life, especially as children at school. I can think of a number of personal stories in regards to that feeling. I know in my group of friends we have laughed at the expense of each other more than we should have. Just because it is a different scenario with different parts of your being attacked does not make it any the less traumatic.

I'm not saying I don't believe women, far from it. I am saying that when emotionally close to the story the possibility of exaggeration exists (from any party). I can say I have been guilty of the same offense. which is why I keep going back to: Perspective, Balance.

[WakeUpAndLive]

You've seriously never been in a situation where a group of girls indulge in derogatory humour against men? Or encountered the casual misandry in everyday female conversation? I've certainly encountered it that many women have no qualms about openly stating their belief that you're stupid or incapable because you're a man and treating it like a joke. Or do you just think what women do can't be wrong, or that women deserve greater consideration?

I'm not quite sure how you pulled these opinions of me from my post, I was just pointing out an experience that relates to this thread. I feel both parties are guilty of this type of behavior against the opposite sex, sometimes even their own.

[Canadian_watcher]

I am saying that when emotionally close to the story the possibility of exaggeration exists (from any party). I can say I have been guilty of the same offense. which is why I keep going back to: Perspective, Balance.

Yeah, in that restaurant experience, for example, I'll bet that the people telling jokes weren't really offending anyone, it's just that you were probably too sensitive/exaggerating. I don't know what I was thinking when I took your account of that experience at face value a few posts back.

[WakeUpAndLive]

I am saying that when emotionally close to the story the possibility of exaggeration exists (from any party). I can say I have been guilty of the same offense. which is why I keep going back to: Perspective, Balance.

Yeah, in that restaurant experience, for example, I'll bet that the people telling jokes weren't really offending anyone, it's just that you were probably too sensitive/exaggerating. I don't know what I was thinking when I took your account of that experience at face value a few posts back.

Your logic just makes me feel like this smiley:




I really don't expect you to take anything I say as fact, I'm 0s and 1s passing through wire as far as you are concerned. What I do expect is for rational thought about how BOTH parties in each of the misogynistic acts has a part. Through rational thought we can conclude whether exaggeration exists and to what extent. Taking a look at both parties involvement in the experience and the outcome it is possible to determine some baselines of what misogyny does constitute. Through this process it is my opinion most will conclude that the acts of that night at the Tepan restaurant were inappropriate, but it is hard to say unless everyone here answered.


It is my opinion that it is possible actions taken could provoke misogynistic behavior, and I'm not using this as an excuse, just as a remind that we have to look at our own actions as well in the course of any human conflict, not just misogyny. I'm not looking to put women down, I'm just looking for that balance we sorely lack in today's society.

[Canadian_watcher]

WUaL,

I understand what you're saying, I think. You seem to be saying that emotion clouds the issue when a person or persons involved in an event try and tell their truth of the event. It seems to me that you are still arguing in support of the argument that parties to an event cannot accurately report on that event.

I agree that it does happen, but I disagree that objectivity is impossible. I also disagree that this presents some sort of insurmountable barrier to discerning which acts can be considered to be misogynistic acts.

Further it would be nice if the perpetrators of misogynistic acts would come out and tell their sides of the story every time one of these events took place. However, that is rarely possible, so we must be allowed some latitude in our judgments - this forum will almost always only have one side of the story.

I can tell you what I heard one of the men say after attacking me in the bathroom. He argued that I had smiled and flirted on the elevator and.. I kid you not .. he actually said the phrase: "She wanted it." I was on the other side of a door with a peephole being asked to positively identify him at the time.

I'm not asking you to comment on this. I just wanted you to hear his defense for yourself.