Peak Oil

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Peak Oil

Yes, it's real.
43
57%
No, it's a scam.
33
43%
 
Total votes : 76

Re: Peak Oil

Postby wintler2 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:52 am

Thanks for the link Nordic, but it (and all other instances i could find) cite one US oil industry consultant in a 2001 NYT article:
If bin Laden takes over and becomes king of Saudi Arabia, he’d turn off the tap,” said Roger Diwan, a managing director of the Petroleum Finance Company, a consulting firm in Washington. “He said at one point that he wants oil to be $144 a barrel” — about six times what it sells for now.

No biggie, it is the sort of thing OBL might say, but forgive me if i don't take the NYTs or Diwans word for it.

$144/barrel is of course ridiculously cheap considering the 25,000 person-hours energy equivalent (many assumptions, good discussion here).
"Wintler2, you are a disgusting example of a human being, the worst kind in existence on God's Earth. This is not just my personal judgement.." BenD

Research question: are all god botherers authoritarians?
User avatar
wintler2
 
Posts: 2884
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:43 am
Location: Inland SE Aus.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby ninakat » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Peak Oil, Time, And Population
By Peter Goodchild

07 July, 2010
Countercurrents.org

There is a close relationship between peak oil and population. Since the 1950s there have been many estimates of the rise and fall of global oil production, but it was perhaps inevitable that the shift has been from optimistic to realistic. After all, it is better for one’s reputation to make errors on the side of caution than to look like foolish by announcing a catastrophe that does not occur. With increasing studies, however, and with increasing proximity to the critical events, realism at last takes over.

We begin with two basic facts. The first is that the world’s present annual consumption of oil is nearly 30 billion barrels. The second is that the world’s present population is nearly 7 billion. From there we can add some reasonable estimates of both oil decline and population decline.

The peak of world oil production is about 2010, and the most likely rate of decline after the peak is 6 percent. [5, 7, 11] That means production will fall to half of the peak level in 11 years, i.e. in 2021.

Population size is directly correlated with oil supply. Oil has been the main source of energy within industrial society. It is only with abundant oil that a large global population has been possible, and it was oil that allowed population to grow so quickly. [1]

If oil production drops to half of its peak amount in 11 years, therefore, world population must also drop by half, i.e. to 3.5 billion. A drop from 7 billion to 3.5 means that, as with oil production, the annual population decline rate will be 6%.

But how will it be possible to reduce the population from 7 billion to 3.5 billion in 11 years? Would such a reduction be possible with a program of voluntary cessation of all childbirth, but with no other drastic global change in human behavior? Would a no-child policy be workable? Unfortunately, such a program would be quite unlikely to succeed. In the first place, in order to have any significant effect the program would have to be both global and immediate. In addition, most of the world is hardly amenable to the suggestion of a one-child policy, such as that of China, so it is not likely that it would tolerate a no-child policy.

In any case, cutting the birth rate without increasing the death rate would not have a great enough effect on the final numbers. Since most of the people now living would still be alive in 2021, the population would not be reduced sufficiently. There is, in fact, no feasible political means of reducing population by 6 percent annually.

The only solution will be famine, and that solution will not be one that is chosen by humans. It will be chosen by Nature, as she does for so many other species. The process will be set in place by the ubiquitous and systemic decline in resources, and the consequent decline in industrial production. Without fossil fuels, agricultural yields will decline to about 30 percent. [7, 8, 9] The famine has already started, to judge from the decline in world food supplies. [3, 4] Roughly similar declines will occur in everything from mining, electricity, and manufacturing, to transportation and communication. [2, 6]

Planning for such a scenario should have been started long ago. Even at this late date, however, what is needed is to accept the facts and to ease the way for those relatively few who will constitute the future of humanity. At least on a small scale, such a program will succeed.

REFERENCES:

1. Catton, William R., Jr. Overshoot: The Ecological Basis of Revolutionary Change. Champaign, Illinois: University of Illinois Press, 1982.

2. Duncan, Richard C. The Olduvai Theory: Energy, Population, and Industrial Civilization. The Social Contract, Winter 2005-2006. http://www.thesocialcontract.com/pdf/si ... i-2-93.pdf

3. Earth Policy Institute. Earth Policy Indicators. 15 June 2006. Grain Harvest: http://www.earth-policy.org/index.php?/indicators/C54/

4. -----. Earth Policy Indicators. 22 June 2005. Fish Harvest. http://www.earth-policy.org/index.php?/indicators/C55/

5. Foucher, Sam. Analysis of Decline Rates. The Oil Drum. 25 February 2009. http://iseof.org/pdf/theoildrum_4820.pdf

6. Gever, John, et al. Beyond Oil: The Threat to Food and Fuel in the Coming Decades. 3rd ed. Boulder, Colorado: University Press of Colorado, 1991.

7. Höök, Mikael, Robert Hirsch, and Kjell Aleklett. Giant Oil Field Decline Rates and Their Influence on World Oil Production. Energy Policy. June 2009. http://www.tsl.uu.se/uhdsg/Publications ... rticle.pdf

8. Pimentel, David. Energy Flows in Agricultural and Natural Ecosystems. CIHEAM (International Centre for Advanced Mediterranean Agronomic Studies). 1984. ressources.ciheam.org/om/pdf/s07/c10841.pdf

9. -----, and Carl W. Hall, eds. Food and Energy Resources. Orlando, Florida: Academic Press, 1984.

10. -----, and Marcia H. Pimentel. Food, Energy, and Society. 3rd ed. Boca Raton, Florida: CRC Press, 2007.

11. Poston, Steven W. Decline Curves. Hamilton Group. http://www.hamiltongroup.org/documents/ ... Poston.pdf


Peter Goodchild is the author of Survival Skills of the North American Indians, published by Chicago Review Press. His email address is odonatus@live.com.
User avatar
ninakat
 
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:38 pm
Location: "Nothing he's got he really needs."
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby ninakat » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:37 pm

Population Growth Must Stop
by Gary Peters

Earth’s population is approaching seven billion at the same time that resource limits and environmental degradation are becoming more apparent every day. Rich nations have long assured poor nations that they, too, would one day be rich and that their rates of population growth would decline, but it is no longer clear that this will occur for most of today’s poor nations. Resource scarcities, especially oil, are likely to limit future economic growth; the demographic transition that has accompanied economic growth in the past may not be possible for many nations today. Nearly 220,000 people are added to the planet every day, further compounding most resource and environmental problems. The United States adds another person every eleven seconds. We can no longer wait for increasing wealth to bring down fertility in remaining high fertility nations; we need policies and incentives to stop growth now.

(...)
User avatar
ninakat
 
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:38 pm
Location: "Nothing he's got he really needs."
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby ninakat » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:48 pm

FSN In Depth: Michael C. Ruppert, Confronting Collapse

RealPlayer | WinAmp | Windows Media | MP3

With: James J Puplava CFP
The world is running short of energy—especially cheap, easy-to-find oil. Shortages, along with resulting price increases, threaten industrialized civilization, the global economy, and our entire way of life.

In Confronting Collapse, author Michael C. Ruppert, a former LAPD narcotics officer turned investigative journalist, details the intricate connections between money and energy, including the ways in which oil shortages and price spikes triggered the economic crash that began in September 2008. Given the 96 percent correlation between economic growth and greenhouse gas emissions and the unlikelihood of economic growth without a spike in energy use, Ruppert argues that we are not, in fact, on the verge of economic recovery, but on the verge of complete collapse.

Ruppert’s truth is not merely inconvenient. It is utterly devastating.

But there is still hope. Ruppert outlines a 25-point plan of action, including the creation of a second strategic petroleum reserve for the use of state and local governments, the immediate implementation of a national Feed-in Tariff mandating that electric utilities pay 3 percent above market rates for all surplus electricity generated from renewable sources, a thorough assessment of soil conditions nationwide, and an emergency action plan for soil restoration and sustainable agriculture.

Michael C. Ruppert is a former Los Angeles Police Department narcotics investigator turned investigative journalist. He is the author of Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil, and the founder of the online newsletter From the Wilderness. He currently lives in Los Angeles.
User avatar
ninakat
 
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:38 pm
Location: "Nothing he's got he really needs."
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby ninakat » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:14 pm

Keiser Report: Peak Everything
This week Max Keiser and co-host, Stacy Herbert, report on haircuts on T-bills and rebounds in silver. In the second half of the show, Max talks to James Howard Kunstler about dumping Treasuries and fracking gas.

User avatar
ninakat
 
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:38 pm
Location: "Nothing he's got he really needs."
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby ninakat » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:10 pm

One Hundred And Thirty-Eight In The Shade
By Guy McPherson
02 January, 2012
Transition Voice

According to Mark Twain, “civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities.”

We can hope western civilization is just about done with the mindless multiplication of anything, much less unnecessary nonsense. And we can, and should, work toward that goal. In light of the likely near-term extinction of Homo sapiens if western civilization maintains its current course, I’m an unapologetic fan of terminating western civilization as quickly as possible.

Consider, for example, recent headlines on the climate-change front, most of which indicate surprise on the part of the scientists conducting the research:


We shouldn’t be surprised about that last headline. There’s no politically viable response to climate change because growth of the industrial economy requires liquid fossil fuels. As a result, we’re counting heavily on tar sands and shale oil. Additionaly, the great polar ice melt rush has begun, even though oil exploration under Arctic ice could cause uncontrollable “natural” disasters (think BP’s Deepwater Horizon on steroids).

These twin sides of the fossil-fuel coin strongly and trenchantly interact: We must experience a peak-oil-induced collapse if we’re to survive climate change.

When I point out the ongoing acceleration of a long-term slow decline in the industrial economy, people take issue. “It can’t happen here. This time is different. There’ll be plenty of warning. “ And so on.

In response to the insanity of the herd’s groupthink, I turn to Nietzsche for solace:

    The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.

It’s too late for a fast collapse of the industrial economy, although we could witness a rapid completion of the ongoing slow decline.

According to every significant macroeconomic index, the US hit its peak in 2000. We’ve been in the midst of an economic recession since then. We’ve been mired in an economic depression since 2008, when the industrial age came within an eyelash of reaching its overdue terminus.

Even Ben Bernanke admitted to the latter phenomenon, years after the meltdown on Wall Street.

When all the banks fail — or even a significant proportion of them — we’ll suddenly lose access to the fiat currency that allows the current set of living arrangements to persist. I strongly suspect the high price of oil had a lot to do with the near meltdown in 2008, a notion consistent with oil price spikes preceding every economic recession since 1972.

Expensive oil represents a huge hurdle to growth of the industrial economy. Indeed, events in Europe suggest the spike in the price of oil to $126 a barrel last spring might have put the final nail in the coffin of the industrial economy, albeit in delayed fashion. This should be no surprise, given the fragility of the industrial economy and its near-death back in ’08, when it was on much stronger footing than now.

Imagine the reaction of the willfully ignorant masses when the industrial economy finally reaches its overdue end. The astonishment will be great for those who believe the industrial economy is unaffected by spikes in the price of oil. Horror will be legion for those who don’t think that its long-time decline can turn into an actual collapse. And with mainstream media echoing contemporary politicians at every level, belief in anything but a fall seems to be the norm, setting folks up for shocks that will appear to come out of nowhere.

Watch out for that wall

I don’t know the terminology for a sudden stop of the industrial economy. I don’t think terms such as hyperinflation and deflation apply, and economists rarely use the phrase, “industrial economy crushed by Godzilla.” As with any leap off a skyscraper, it’s not the fall that’s fatal: It’s the sudden stop at the bottom.

The rapid collapse of AIG back in 2008 is a harbinger of an equally rapid failure of the Fed, hence our entire monetary system. The only difference is that this time there will be nobody to bail out the ultimate backstopper and, as a result, we’ll observe the sudden death of a failed experiment.

Here’s one analogy: We’re in an aerial tram, suspended a few thousand feet above the valley floor by a sturdy, steel, 2-inch-diameter cable. But the cable is comprised of thousands of tightly wrapped strands, all of which are hundreds of years old and half of which have already broken. The remaining strands are breaking at an increasingly rapid pace as the pressure builds.

The US Federal Reserve Bank has been holding this sucker together with duct tape and baling wire, but Ben Bernanke is fresh out of both items. Even famed collapse-nik Dmitry Orlov has given up on his long-held five-stage model of collapse, now claiming we have a single remaining event standing between us and western civilization’s ignominious end.

Vodka on the rocks

The seemingly rapid collapse of the former Soviet Union — the latest superpower to hit bottom, never to recover — actually took a few years to transpire, as described by Orlov in his excellent 2008 book, Reinventing Collapse: The Soviet Example and American Prospects. The Soviet collapse occurred more quickly than the ongoing collapse of the current system, but increasingly President Obama is coming across as a conniving version of Gorbachev.

A few informed people saw the Soviet collapse coming and sounded the klaxons, but of course government officials didn’t post warning signs on the nightly news.

Here it’s no different.

Quibbling about minor differences between socialist news delivered by and for the Politburo and fascist news delivered by and for the Corporatocracy seems irrelevant at this point.

As Oliver Stone points out, President Obama could take a lesson from Mikhail Gorbachev about how to dismantle a dysfunctional empire that has long overstayed its welcome.

Instead, Rolling Stone columnist Matt Taibbi accuses Obama — along with his sidekick at the US Treasury, Timothy Geithner — of desperately acting like the flailing executives at Lehman Brothers as that bank collapsed in the wake of AIG’s failure . (MF Global might represent a contemporary analog).

The decline of the US industrial economy has been a slow-motion, ongoing process, albeit with several notable steps down along the way.

If we’re lucky, the next step leads right off a skyscraper, thus leading to a sudden stop at the sidewalk below. Obviously, this is the only legitimate remaining opportunity to prevent the near-term extinction of the many species we drive to extinction every day, as well as our own species.

And, of course, it will allow us to see the end of Twain’s limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities.

+ + +

Guy McPherson is professor emeritus of natural resources and the environment at the University of Arizona, where he taught and conducted research for 20 years. He's written well over 100 articles, ten books, the most recent of which is Walking Away From Empire, and has focused for many years on conservation of biological diversity. He lives in an off-grid, straw-bale house where he practices durable living via organic gardening, raising small animals for eggs and milk, and working with members of his rural community. Learn more at guymcpherson.com or email Guy at grm@ag.arizona.edu.
User avatar
ninakat
 
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:38 pm
Location: "Nothing he's got he really needs."
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby ninakat » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:33 am

User avatar
ninakat
 
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:38 pm
Location: "Nothing he's got he really needs."
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby NeonLX » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:26 am

Can't remember if I ever voted in that poll, so I just did.

We might be at peak non-renewable resource use...my limited brain isn't able to assimilate all of the data so I'm just sayin' what we as a species are doing now ain't sustainable.
America is a fucked society because there is no room for essential human dignity. Its all about what you have, not who you are.--Joe Hillshoist
User avatar
NeonLX
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:11 am
Location: Enemy Occupied Territory
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby Simulist » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:28 pm

You speak for me on this too, Neon.

If there's only so much "stuff" to consume,
And if we're increasingly consuming that stuff with no viable alternative in sight to replace it;
Then we're eventually going to run out.

(Anyone who's ever used a refrigerator should be able to figure that out.)
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
User avatar
Simulist
 
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:13 pm
Location: Here, and now.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby Nordic » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:35 pm

Well it's certainly getting to the point where gasoline just isn't affordable any more.

I mean, for most people. And even if you do "have" to buy gas, that means there's a lot of other stuff you can't buy because you just blew all that money to fill up your tank.

Right now I'm spending over 70 bucks a week on diesel fuel for my old Benz. $280 a month I'd really rather have for something else. Like new shoes! Yeah, that would be nice. Socks! Yeah I need those. That old electric bill I've been putting off (barely)! Yeah!

Believe me if there was a way around it I'd do it. There's not, not without spending thousands and thousands more to invest in a "cheaper" way.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby NeonLX » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:32 pm

We're "downsizing" in a big way (God, I hate that euphemism). As old as we are and for as long as we have worked, Mrs. Neon and I should be looking forward to some degree of relaxation and fun. But that ain't gonna happen. We're both working more now than ever and we keep deferring a lot of sh!t that needs to be done to the old shack (needs a new furnace, chimney, and a zillion other maintenance-type things).

I gave up farming for the "security" of a regular wage back in the mid-1970s. What a chump.

I keep thinking, "I pay taxes so rich people don't have to".

But am I bitter?
America is a fucked society because there is no room for essential human dignity. Its all about what you have, not who you are.--Joe Hillshoist
User avatar
NeonLX
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:11 am
Location: Enemy Occupied Territory
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby justdrew » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:39 pm

right on schedule, as expected... Gas prices are rising...

A jump in gasoline prices is threatening to smother the flickering flames of the US economic recovery and with them President Barack Obama’s hopes of retaining the White House.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/02/22/high-oil-prices-test-u-s-economy-obama/


The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal said the plan would reduce the overall rate from 35 percent to 28 percent while eliminating dozens of deductions and subsidies that allow many firms to pay far less.

White House officials could not immediately be reached for comment.

The plan, to be unveiled later on Wednesday, could help US President Barack Obama blunt election-year attacks by his Republican rivals, who advocate cutting taxes as well as federal spending to trim the country’s bloated debt.

The Journal quoted a senior administration official as saying the plan would lower the effective tax rate on manufacturers to “no more than 25 percent” from an average rate of about 32 percent.

At the same time, it would effectively raise the taxes paid by oil and gas companies, which benefit from deductions and subsidies.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/02/22/obama-to-propose-cut-to-corporate-tax-rate/
By 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the US
User avatar
justdrew
 
Posts: 11966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: unknown
Blog: View Blog (11)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby Simulist » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:42 pm

Gas prices, eh?

Does anybody remember the "wage, price freeze" during the Nixon Administration?

If Obama actually wanted to protect the "fragile economic recovery," why couldn't he do what at least one other president has done before him?
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
User avatar
Simulist
 
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:13 pm
Location: Here, and now.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby wintler2 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:04 pm

Simulist wrote:Gas prices, eh? Does anybody remember the "wage, price freeze" during the Nixon Administration? If Obama actually wanted to protect the "fragile economic recovery," why couldn't he do what at least one other president has done before him?


Nixon only froze prices for 3 months, and that likely as a lolly to distract from final end of $-gold standard (which itself was arguably due to US oil peak as well as costs of Vietnam invasion). Even if Obama could mandate an oil price freeze, US would just run out of oil supply as exporters sold to very willing buyers elsewhere. US oil consumption has been falling for a few years, but IIRC imports must be still at least 10 million barrels a day.

$80 a tank (50l) is normal here, the Tapis crude that Australian prices are pegged from is over $130/barrel, and our govt is not nearly as shy at taxing consumers. It'll keep going up till economy stalls, as happened in 2008, demand and price will crash then creep up again.
"Wintler2, you are a disgusting example of a human being, the worst kind in existence on God's Earth. This is not just my personal judgement.." BenD

Research question: are all god botherers authoritarians?
User avatar
wintler2
 
Posts: 2884
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:43 am
Location: Inland SE Aus.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Peak Oil

Postby Simulist » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:06 pm

Thanks, Wintler2. That makes sense.

I'd just remembered that when I was a little kid, my parents and their friends sat around the TV when Nixon made that speech. Grateful to you for putting it into context.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
User avatar
Simulist
 
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:13 pm
Location: Here, and now.
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 193 guests