Oath Keepers: When the Teabaggers Just Aren’t Whacked Enough

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Postby 23 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:45 am

American Dream wrote:I would put them in the same ballpark. And I don't particularly trust the Oath Keepers' statements that they are so completely different.

Anyway, are you going to respond to the questions?


You haven't answered mine.

What facts, can you point to, that lay the premise for your distrust?

I can point to the many lies and acts of deceit, that the federal government performed, which laid the groundwork for my distrust of it.

What facts do you rely on for your distrust of Stewart Rhodes' clear statement of disassociation with the militia and white supremacists?

Or did I need to bold the word facts in addition to italicizing it?
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Postby Searcher08 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:53 am

American Dream wrote:I would put them in the same ballpark. And I don't particularly trust the Oath Keepers' statements that they are so completely different.

Anyway, are you going to respond to the questions?


I would appreciate an answer to my questions too, A_D.

That would encourage more 'cognitive transparency'.
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Postby 23 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:20 pm

While I'm waiting for AD to reveal the facts which are supporting his distrust of Stewart Rhode's public attestation of Oath Keepers' disassociation from militias and white supremacists....

I thought that it would be thought provoking to reread an essay that I like to reread, from time to time.

I enjoy its provocative nature.

http://www.insteadofablog.com/2006.10.28.shtml
Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism:
A Distinction Refined


by Wirkman Virkkala

Back in the ’80s, neoconservatives spent much of their public time ruminating on the great weight of difference between authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. It was morally allowable to co-operate with the former against the latter, they argued.

The distinction between the two was fluid, though. But I had to admit, there did seem to be a difference.

What is it?

The basic distinction most of us made, in they heyday of the argument, was that the distinction was a matter of degree. Authoritarians meddle more in society, and demand higher allegiance and more obedience than democratic societies do. Totalitarians go further. They meddle in every aspect of life. There is nothing off-limits to them. The totality of your life belongs to the state . . . hence the name, totalitarianism.

This conception of totalitarianism was pithily defined by the satirical slogan for anthill society in T.H. White’s Once and Future King:

Everything not forbidden is compulsory.

The authoritarian idea is weaker. Authoritarians wish to forbid only a subset of things, and seek to compel mainly allegiance and servitude to the state. Authoritarians do offer leeway. Some people can remain relatively free in an authoritarian society, even without becoming part of the ruling elite. As long as they keep their noses clean. And do not appear to oppose the regime.

But I suspect this matter of degree does not quite get to the heart of the distinction. Also important is the direction of intent. There is an element of moral style that can be easily seen when one compares Hobbes (an authoritarian philosopher) and Marx (a totalitarian ideologue). The first stresses the negatives to be avoided; the latter, the positives to be achieved. Hobbes worried over the struggle of all against all, and of civilization collapsing, leaving us with a life "nasty, brutish, and short." Marx heralded the coming of a worker’s paradise, where no one lacked for sustenance and fulfillment. Both prescribed autocratic regimes. The difference may have been one of scope, but the basic orientation is quite clear: Hobbes was fearful of degradation; Marx was hopeful of salvation. Oddly, both eagerly risked despotism to achieve their ends.

Authoritarians get most exercised about those who oppose them, and secondarily some social vices that they see (for whatever reason) as obviously bad or evil. Indeed, authoritarian advocacy by members of freer societies tend to go much further than authoritarian regimes do; they seek to forbid everything that they see as bad or dangerous.

Various concepts of the good? These aren’t the main focus of their coercive agenda. An authoritarian may allow you leeway to pursue a wide variety of "acceptable" routes to goodness, however defined. But paths that they consider evil? No way. These they proscribe. And they are quite willing to terrorize you to get you to avoid those pathways and temptations.

The totalitarian focus is different. In actually existing totalitarian societies, not much is left as an option. But totalitarian advocacy in freer societies most concentrate on the core notion . . . of goodness, of good things (social goods) to be achieved. Totalitarians feel compelled to compel you to "do what’s good."

Totalitarians often profess to be "at a loss" in argument. They confess to incomprehension to objections made to their demands. "How can you oppose the achievements of goodness? How can you not help us save the poor? How can you . . .?" Indeed, their main rhetorical tool is the expression of incomprehension. It defines those who agree with the ends and means as "with it" and those who do not (for whatever reason) as stupid and greedy.

Authoritarians say something similar when you object to making every conceivable "bad thing" or dangerous act illegal. "How can you defend the bad?" People with knee-jerk authoritarian tendencies, like Bill O’Reilly, regularly dismiss opponents of the drug war as "druggies" themselves. If you are not with an authoritarian on his or her quest to rid the world of this evil or that, you are against them. You become their enemy.

Against both ideas stand individualist liberalism, that is, modern libertarianism. The idea of individual liberty incorporates the allowing of people to do a whole subset of dangerous and bad things . . . and allowing them to pursue various and competing visions of "the good" in their own way.

Attempting to corral everybody away from some conception of the bad, that’s a conservative notion, in the end an authoritarian idea. Individual liberty allows for a lot of private vice. And social ills, too. When we don’t allow for these, we end up with sweeping state power, with everyone and everything brought under the minute inspection of moralists who seek to stamp out particularist and even private versions of the bad.

Individual liberty, when seen in the light of the fight against authoritarianism, is indeed liberal in the old sense, for it generously and tolerantly allows people a lot of room for experimentation and even folly. It expects people to learn from their mistakes, and the mistakes of their neighbors. Such liberals may weep when people don’t learn (for humans often don’t; it’s merely the case that they can), but they don’t let empathy for human suffering turn into a scourge against all conceptions of the bad.

Of course, this kind of liberality is in short supply these days. Actually allowing for a variety of values . . . this is not comfortable to many people who hold values strongly. For many, the recognition that values are diverse, subjective, and sometimes in conflict, doesn’t come easily.

That’s why philosophical arguments about value often sweep diversity of values under the rug. That’s why (I gather) conservatives yammer on about "absolute value," even if they cannot logically demonstrate what that might be. At least, they have great trouble convincing more than a plurality of the population.

Our governments in America tend to lean authoritarian. But that doesn’t mean they do not occasionally exhibit a totalitarian streak.

And it certainly doesn’t mean that politicians, in their traditional appeals of "coming together" to work "for the common good" do not frequently exhibit strong totalitarian tendencies.

My credo in politics can be put to this: we are not free so long as we are compelled to refrain from doing everything seen as bad. We are utterly servile when we are compelled to do everything seen as good.

Wrinkle in this idea: people with truly minimal ideas of badness and goodness can still be of authoritarian or totalitarian temper in psychology even if their actual, demonstrated political positions are eminently libertarian. The liberals among the libertarians are only those who hold "thicker" moral philosophies. You can’t be a liberal if your only idea of goodness is limned by liberty alone.

But caution: when I just used the word "liberal," I was not using it in its modern, degraded American sense, which has been pithily defined as "a liberal is a person who is liberal with spending other people’s money." Modern liberals, as the inheritors of Progressivism, are people who tend to react very negatively to authoritarian styles of argument but are very, very enamored of totalitarian ones. This is an uneasy compromise, and yields a weird political philosophy, to say the least.

When liberals were libertarians, basically — that is, back in the days of J.S. Mill’s On Liberty and Herbert Spencer’s Social Statics — liberals truly fought authoritarianism in temper and principle. Now, however, liberals have foresworn the idea of limiting government, of liberty itself as a limiting principle, and see "freedom" as only a positive thing, and something to be secured by government action above all else. They thus strive for wealth for all, health care for all, not expecting this "all" to work for it in their several capacities, but "everyone" (that is, a few activists) working together in collective action to legislate these conditions into reality.

On the face of it, modern liberalism strikes me as one of the least realistic philosophies imaginable. So much hope is put to complicated methods of co-operation, and so many garlands are thrown onto the chains of coercion that make such systems work in practice. The philosophy is doubly illusionary. A delusion of the elites, who, with extraordinary degrees of hubris, can think they can remake society from the ground up, easily and with just a few good intentions.

But look at those intentions. About goodness. This is where modern liberalism’s totalitarian tendency lies. In conceptions of the good. Do many need help? Of course. So let’s make everybody better off pay to help the least well off! There’s the argument. Compulsory goodness. Charity is good, therefore we will all be compelled to help.

Charmingly, modern liberals still oppose the authoritarian mindset, the idea that every bad thing must be stamped out. Whereas a conservative churchgoer might not blanch at extraordinarily intrusive and illiberal laws against recreational drug use (they are, after all, the people who brought us Prohibition, and most strongly support today’s War on Drugs), or for the suppression of nudity on television or swear words on radio, liberals let such things slide. This is there one conception of liberty that remains "Old School."

Conservatives, for their part, tend to be less enamored of forcing everybody to do what is right in their eyes. Perhaps this is, in part, because their traditional religion depends upon personal responsibility, and state action is largely a war against personal responsibility. State action for good things tends to socialize responsibility, as burdens are shared by all alike, through taxes.

This is the charming side of conservatism: the ability to see through the state as an instrument for goodness. Goodness in its most positive aspects does not come by committee. And any religious person knows this. Or any practical person with roots in a working community. Human beings just aren’t that impressive to them, and conservatives tend not to be utopians about human character.

But that doesn’t absolve them from their periodic hysterias about stamping out the bad. Both philosophies, that of Fearful conservatism and Prodigal liberalism, fall prey to the temptations of power. They just choose different styles: authoritarianism for those on the right, and totalitarianism for those on the left. Each waters down the heady tonic of suppression and coercion with a compromising opposition to the other’s vice.

There are better compromises available. Indeed, one is ideal.
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Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:25 pm

Hi Searcher-

If I give a brief statement indicating how I do and/or don't support the Oath Keepers would you be willing to do the same?


How about you, 23?
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Postby 23 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:29 pm

American Dream wrote:Hi Searcher-

If I give a brief statement indicating how I do and/or don't support the Oath Keepers would you be willing to do the same?

How about you, 23?


If you need more time to reveal the facts which are laying the groundwork for your distrust of Oath Keeper's public disassociation with the militia and white supremacists, take all the time you need.

I not leaving town until the 1st of the new year.

Unless, of course, you may want to add that your distrust of Oath Keepers' public disassociation from militias and white supremacists is not based on facts.

Then I won't wait for what won't be forthcoming.
Last edited by 23 on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:33 pm

23, I've already got enough information to write a few sentences giving my analysis of the "Oath Keepers" phenomenon and to make a statement regarding my support and/or lack thereof.

How about you, 23?

And you, Searcher?
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Postby 23 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:41 pm

American Dream wrote:23, I've already got enough information to write a few sentences giving my analysis of the "Oath Keepers" phenomenon and to make a statement regarding my support and/or lack thereof.

How about you, 23?

And you, Searcher?


I'm not interested in your "analysis of the 'Oath Keepers' phenomenon", AD.

You're appearing to skirt the issue, my friend.

I'm interested in the facts that are supporting your distrust of Stewart Rhode's public attestation (that I linked to earlier) of disassociation from militias and white supremacists.

If you don't have any, you won't experience a virtual death by saying so.

Life will virtually continue to go on, I assure you.
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Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:49 pm

I don't doubt that Stewart Rhodes made such a statement- I have no particular reason to do so.

Does this mean that I therefore believe that there is no overlap between Oath Keepers and Militia-ists, White Supremacists and other such Right Wing Extremists?

Not at all...

Anyway, 23, are you willing to own up to a clear position on the Oath Keepers, or not?
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Postby Searcher08 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:50 pm

American Dream wrote:Hi Searcher-

If I give a brief statement indicating how I do and/or don't support the Oath Keepers would you be willing to do the same?


How about you, 23?


Hi A_D,

What is the purpose / intended result of my making a brief statement on how I do dont support Oath Keepers?
What would that enable yo to see, hear or feel


I gave a full detailed statement on the methodologies I use for questioning on R.I. There is some discussion going on regarding what approach you yourself use - as it has been demonstrated earlier that you use the same approach with multiple people.


That is the question I asked quite a while ago (BTW I did this in the recent Zionism thread and when we got to this point I put forward my point of view and you said you would BUT THEN DIDNT!!)


I am also curious you question my credentials as an anti-fascist, given my experiences in London, which you ignored. Have you ever been in harms way, like I have, or has it all been at the sharp end of nothing more than a ball point pen letter writing - and posting on forums where most people think in the same ballpark?
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Postby 23 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:59 pm

American Dream wrote:I don't doubt that Stewart Rhodes made such a statement- I have no particular reason to do so.

Does this mean that I therefore believe that there is no overlap between Oath Keepers and Militia-ists, White Supremacists and other such Right Wing Extremists?

Not at all...

Anyway, 23, are you willing to own up to a clear position on the Oath Keepers, or not?


Keep your eye on the ball, AD. I'll help you to do that 'cause you're an RIer, and RIers are special people.

Back to square one.

The leader of Oath Keepers said this:

"We're not a militia," he said. "And we're not part and parcel of the white supremacist movement. I loathe white supremacists."
http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keepers-pledges-to-prevent-dictatorship-in-united-states-64690232.html

You, however, have lumped the Oath Keepers and militia in one bag (making the FBI and Homeland Security very happy, I might add).

So what facts, AD, cause you to disbelieve or distrust Stewart Rhode's statement?

Distrust based on facts is one form or distrust. Distrust based on something else is another.

I'll check this thread, from time to time, to see what form of distrust you are harboring.

P.S. Would it be of any help to you if I offered the possibility that one of the alternative foundations for a distrust that is not premised on facts... is fear?
Last edited by 23 on Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:02 pm

Searcher08 wrote:
What is the purpose / intended result of my making a brief statement on how I do dont support Oath Keepers?
What would that enable yo to see, hear or feel


I gave a full detailed statement on the methodologies I use for questioning on R.I. There is some discussion going on regarding what approach you yourself use - as it has been demonstrated earlier that you use the same approach with multiple people.

That is the question I asked quite a while ago (BTW I did this in the recent Zionism thread and when we got to this point I put forward my point of view and you said you would BUT THEN DIDNT!!)

I am also curious you question my credentials as an anti-fascist, given my experiences in London, which you ignored. Have you ever been in harms way, like I have, or has it all been at the sharp end of nothing more than a ball point pen letter writing - and posting on forums where most people think in the same ballpark?


Hi Searcher-

I'm a bit puzzled by this.

My intended result of having you may a clear position statement regarding the Oath Keepers is to clarify where you stand on this- it isn't clear to me. Have you previously made a statement indicating a coherent position about what you do and/or don't support? If so I missed it.

Not sure what you mean about methodologies of questioning. You may be assuming that I have more of an intentional system than I do. Remember I have never really participated in NLP trainings, EST Forum workshops or other such things that you may have been involved in...

As to questioning your credentials as an anti-Fascist, I don't think I did that. It doesn't sound like you support what you consider to be "Fascists" but this doesn't tell us much of anything about what you think of Oath Keepers, Militias, Patriots and the like...
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Postby Searcher08 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:02 pm

American Dream wrote:Searcher08 wrote:
What is the purpose / intended result of my making a brief statement on how I do dont support Oath Keepers?
What would that enable yo to see, hear or feel


I gave a full detailed statement on the methodologies I use for questioning on R.I. There is some discussion going on regarding what approach you yourself use - as it has been demonstrated earlier that you use the same approach with multiple people.

That is the question I asked quite a while ago (BTW I did this in the recent Zionism thread and when we got to this point I put forward my point of view and you said you would BUT THEN DIDNT!!)

I am also curious you question my credentials as an anti-fascist, given my experiences in London, which you ignored. Have you ever been in harms way, like I have, or has it all been at the sharp end of nothing more than a ball point pen letter writing - and posting on forums where most people think in the same ballpark?


Hi Searcher-

I'm a bit puzzled by this.

My intended result of having you may a clear position statement regarding the Oath Keepers is to clarify where you stand on this- it isn't clear to me. Have you previously made a statement indicating a coherent position about what you do and/or don't support? If so I missed it.

Not sure what you mean about methodologies of questioning. You may be assuming that I have more of an intentional system than I do. Remember I have never really participated in NLP trainings, EST Forum workshops or other such things that you may have been involved in...

As to questioning your credentials as an anti-Fascist, I don't think I did that. It doesn't sound like you support what you consider to be "Fascists" but this doesn't tell us much of anything about what you think of Oath Keepers, Militias, Patriots and the like...


Thank you for your reply.

My question on intended results of the your questioning is What will having clarity on my current thinking around Oath Keepers enable you to have? - (hey, this is an NVC question!) - what need of yours will I be meeting by addressing this question to your satisfaction?

I have a concern that comes from being unclear of what needs of yours you are addressing.

I did answer in detail where my time and attention to priorities was in the overall life 'pie'.


Nah, Im not really defending, more acting as a meme filter, I'm mostly pointing out that generally what you are posting about Oath Keepers is IMHO flabby sub Cockburn 9/11 nonsense.

ANYWAY, I hope you will answer this V V

I have noticed that you employ language which seeks to divide. Can you tell me where you get these conversational devices from? I imagine that you are a Marxist. If so, would you tell me what flavour? Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist, Old fashioned Union/ Blue Collar Dem Left? 60s Gramsci theorist? Allende? Is there a source of how you 'engage' that you would be willing to reveal?.


I have not done member facing union work, have not even read Alinsky, (though I must :oops: )

My political approach is informed by Allende / Beer, with a big dose of Catherine Austin Fitts 'Solari' approach and Bill Mollinson's 'Permaculture' ideas to season the mix.
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Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:22 pm

Searcher08 wrote:
What will having clarity on my current thinking around Oath Keepers enable you to have?


Getting some kind of clear statement from you, 23, Sounder, etc. will resolve the cognitive dissonance around your negative responses to the articles, for example when you said "what a pile of crap" without any further explanation.

A simple statement like "I support everything about them, or "I agree with this and this but don't agree with that", would put you position in the light of day where we all can actually see it.

Anyway, I am assuming these were your questions to me?

I have noticed that you employ language which seeks to divide. Can you tell me where you get these conversational devices from? I imagine that you are a Marxist. If so, would you tell me what flavour? Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist, Old fashioned Union/ Blue Collar Dem Left? 60s Gramsci theorist? Allende? Is there a source of how you 'engage' that you would be willing to reveal?.


I don't particularly agree that I "employ language which seeks to divide". I actually consider this to be a common rhetorical trick used by people who are not discriminating about rightists and want these ideas to be accepted in more progressive/left circles.

Anyway, I am not a "true believer" in any particular ideology or method. I consider most Marxist sects to be literally that, kinda cultish. I do think that Marxian tools of social analysis are useful, indeed essential to me. But I have a lot of the anarchist in me. You might find some of my ideas somewhere near where Anarcho-Syndicalism meets Libertarian Socialism. However, I really don't believe in "power over" models ala the Leninist vanguard. So I do have some serious criticisms of Alinsky, who seemed fairly inclined to blow into a community and organize something without considering enough their point of view and experience.

Anyway, enough about me- what about you?
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Postby 23 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:43 pm

Sheeze, can the man dance or what? Fine, I'll play your game for a bit.

With regard to the purpose of their efforts as stated immediately below, I fully support each and every one of their 10 oaths. And I would want cops and soldiers, whose salaries we pay through our taxes, to conduct themselves accordingly.


1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people

3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.

10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.



And with regard to their leader's assertion that they don't have, nor desire, any association with militias or white supremacists as articulated here...


"We're not a militia," he said. "And we're not part and parcel of the white supremacist movement. I loathe white supremacists." http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keepers-p ... 90232.html ...


I find no facts to warrant a disbelief of mine in his assertion.

There, I provided you what you asked for, notwithstanding your current dance mode.

So where do we differ?

Have any facts which warrant a disbelief of yours in his assertion?


P.S. Did you know that Stewart Rhodes is a Mexican-American?
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Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:02 pm

23, if you do not next post write a clear statement regarding your position on the Oath Keepers- what you support, what you do not, then I am not intersted in speaking with you about this any further. It is you who is dancing and it is getting to be tiresome.

As to the 10 Oaths, I can imagine that there were noble sounding creeds for the Soviet Union, the Nazis, Jonestown and plenty of other "bad" groups. Should we support them simply because they say they are working for good things?

Also, I honestly don't give too much of a shit that Stewart Rhodes is a Mexican-American. I also didn't care so much that Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell were black.
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