The United States is not Fascist

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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:10 pm

.

Boardwalk Empire is no more. The series ended last year, I believe, and Coleman's character.. (SPOILER ALERT -- avert your eyes if you care to watch Boardwalk Empire and haven't seen it yet)







...was killed off a the season before last, if I recall.

Great series overall, by the way -- worth watching as it covers a number of themes touched upon here.

Just found this via a quick Google search:

http://www.avclub.com/article/dabney-co ... ardw-86379


Dabney Coleman's real-life cancer affected Boardwalk Empire (also, Dabney Coleman had cancer)

One of the major arcs of Boardwalk Empire's second season involved a conspiracy, led by Dabney Coleman's the Commodore, to overthrow Nucky Thompson. The way the story shook out, of course, was that [first of many spoilers] the Commodore quickly becomes incapacitated with illness, leaving his conspirators to fend for themselves. But during an interview for an upcoming Random Roles with Coleman, our contributor Will Harris learned something that wasn't exactly public knowledge until now: The plotline changed as a direct result of Dabney Coleman's real-life diagnosis with throat cancer, which occasionally affected his ability to speak. According to Coleman, "They said, 'We can’t risk this. We’ve gotta get rid of him. We don’t know what’s gonna happen with this guy. He could drop dead in reality! And then where are we?'"—a fear that Coleman believes (in a self-admitted "educated guess) led to them writing him off the show.

As we'd never heard anything about Coleman being diagnosed with cancer before or how it might have affected the series—and "by the way, I don’t have cancer anymore, thanks for asking," Coleman adds, so that's good—Will contacted Boardwalk's Terence Winter to get his take on what happened after he got the bad news. His response:

First and foremost, there was concern for Dabney, but secondly it was, ‘Okay, how do we work with this on the show, and what is he willing and able to do?’ So we spoke to him, and he told me what his course of treatment was going to be, so we got together with HBO and I said, ‘Look, this really derails our plans for the season in a big way, so we really have to rethink this.’ We still wanted to keep the original story, where everybody conspires against Nucky and the Commodore leads the charge, but we thought that if there’s a way to have the Commodore set up the conspiracy, set up Nucky’s arrest, Eli’s on board, Jimmy’s on board, everybody’s behind them, and then early on the guy who’s leading this charge is now incapacitated…from a story perspective, it actually amps things up in a really great way. Suddenly the general is out of commission, and these guys start turning on each other.

So the challenge was to rewrite the arc of the season to that way, and also to shoot Dabney’s scenes out over the next few weeks, because he was going to be entering treatment immediately, and he didn’t know what effect it would have on his voice or his general ability to work or how tired it was going to be. So we had to very quickly write all the scenes involving the Commodore for the first four episodes without having the episodes written. We really were sort of flying blind, so we just wrote, y’know, the early scenes with the Commodore lifting the tusk over his head, meeting with Jimmy and Jimmy’s reluctance, and, of course, where he had the stroke.

That was a complete clusterfuck. [Laughs.] Because Gretchen Mol was eight months pregnant. That thing was shot in pieces, and, I mean, it’s remarkable how seamless it looks when you see it on TV. You can’t believe the two of them were never in the same…well, they were in the same room, but they were never in the same shot together. So, anyway, we just really wrote quickly, Dabney came in, I think he worked, like, six days straight. It was all Dabney, all the time. We shot all those scenes and then inserted them in later. And then we knew we’d take him out of the middle of the season because he’d be getting treatment, and then, of course, work him back into the show when he was able to work again. But we kept in constant touch with him all through the year.

Furthermore, Winter denies Coleman's belief that his character was supposed to die early into the first season, as well as his belief that his real-life diagnosis had anything to do with the Commodore's fate, saying, "It was always going to be the case that he’d recover from the poisoning and continue on. It was also always the case that he would get killed by Jimmy at the end of Season 2, so… I don’t know if he sort of inferred that we killed him off because he got sick, but that was never the case. And I think he might’ve realized that when we killed Jimmy off a week later." So, Boardwalk Empire fans and Dabney Coleman alike, we've all learned things today!

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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby brekin » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:57 pm

I see I've treaded a little too gingerly and obliquely.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby NeonLX » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:55 pm

Thanks!

I'm sheltered from anything on TV...my old CRT is hooked up to a DVD player.
America is a fucked society because there is no room for essential human dignity. Its all about what you have, not who you are.--Joe Hillshoist
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:45 pm

brekin » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:57 pm wrote:I see I've treaded a little too gingerly and obliquely.


Ha -- perhaps, Brekin. You're welcome to provide a bit more context/insight, however. I can be quite dense in turns.
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby brekin » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:25 pm

Belligerent Savant wrote:
brekin » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:57 pm wrote:I see I've treaded a little too gingerly and obliquely.


Ha -- perhaps, Brekin. You're welcome to provide a bit more context/insight, however. I can be quite dense in turns.


I've pm'd you more context.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby American Dream » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:37 am

The question of “what is fascism?” is a complex, emotionally loaded topic that we could talk about for hours. Even among leftists, there’s no consensus about how to even go about defining fascism. Is it based on certain ideological characteristics, or a particular relationship of class forces? Is it a political process? Is it stage of capitalism? So let’s talk about fascism, but let’s not get too fixated on the word. Because what’s more important is how we analyze the situation, and what we decide to do about it.

As a political category, fascism isn’t an objective thing — it’s a tool for analysis, a tool for making connections and distinctions between different political movements or regimes. Definitions of fascism aren’t objectively true, they’re just more or less useful in helping us understand political developments, and helping us choose a course of action. Some people say, the only time we should call a movement fascist is if it looks almost exactly like the movements that Hitler and Mussolini led in the 1930s. That’s not very useful, because far right politics has changed a lot since 1945, or even since 1975. Some other people say, any example of right-wing authoritarianism, especially one that’s racist or militaristic, is either fascist or something close to it. That’s not very useful either, because it lumps together widely different kinds of politics under one label. I wrote about this in 2007 in an article titled, “Is the Bush administration fascist?”:

“militaristic repression -- even full-scale dictatorship -- doesn't necessarily equal fascism, and the distinction matters. Some forms of right-wing authoritarianism grow out of established political institutions while others reject those institutions; some are creatures of big business while others are independent of, or even hostile to, big business. Some just suppress liberatory movements while others use twisted versions of radical politics in a bid to ‘take the game away from the left.’ These are different kinds of threats. If we want to develop effective strategies for fighting them, we need a political vocabulary that recognizes their differences.”


In my political vocabulary, authoritarian conservatism wants to defend the old order, and generally relies on top-down forms of control, while a fascist movement is a kind of right-wing oppositional politics, which uses a popular mass mobilization in a bid to throw out the political establishment and create a new kind of hierarchical, supremacist, or genocidal system. Fascism is a specific kind of right-wing populism. That means it claims to rally “the people” against sinister elites, but the way it defines elites is at least simplistic (like “greedy bankers”) and usually poisonous (like “greedy Jewish bankers”). Right-wing populism combines this twisted anti-elitism with stepped up attacks against oppressed and marginalized communities. Right-wing populism tends to have a special appeal for middle-level groups in the social hierarchy — notably middle- and working-class white people — who feel beaten down by a system they don’t control but also want to defend their relative privilege against challenges from oppressed communities below.

Most right-wing populist movements accept the established political framework, but fascism doesn’t. Fascism rejects liberal-pluralist institutions and principles and wants to impose its totalitarian ideology on all spheres of society. In this sense, fascism is a kind of right-wing, revolutionary politics. It doesn’t want revolution in any liberatory sense, but it wants to throw out the old political class, build a new system of rule, and transform the culture so that everyone is loyal to the same ideas and the same values. Fascism doesn’t abolish class society, but it may radically transform it, as the Nazis did when they reinstituted a system of racially based slave labor in the heart of industrial Europe.

How does all this related to Donald Trump and his campaign? I’m afraid I’m not going to give you a simple answer, because I think the issue is complicated, and it’s also a story that’s still being written. Trump’s campaign has a mix of fascist and non-fascist characteristics, and it represents several different kinds of threats. If Trump is elected president, he will certainly make the United States a more authoritarian and more supremacist society. I think he would probably do this within the framework of the existing political system, and would not be able to impose a full-scale dictatorship — but I could be wrong about that. And whether Trump wins or loses in November, even if he loses by a lot, his campaign has already helped to revitalize the white nationalist far right in this country. Four more years of another centrist neoliberal president will only make that movement stronger.

Let me unpack all that a bit. Clearly, the Trump campaign is an example of right-wing populism. It’s a vortex of rage defending white, male, heterosexual privilege, but it’s also a scathing rejection of the political establishment, both liberal and conservative. Trump’s positions don’t necessarily follow the mainstream conservative script, but they do closely follow the examples set by earlier right-wing populist candidates such as Pat Buchanan and George Wallace. Like Buchanan in the 1990s, Trump claims to defend native-born American workers against both immigrants taking their jobs and multinational capitalists moving their jobs overseas. Like George Wallace in the 1960s, Trump supports some “liberal” measures — such as protecting Social Security and raising the minimum wage — that directly benefit his white working- and middle-class base. This echoes the standard fascist claim to be “neither left nor right.”


http://threewayfight.blogspot.com/2016/ ... worse.html
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby American Dream » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:02 am

A great hot air balloon: Donald Trump and fascist kitsch


If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, …

Donald Trump is no fascist.

Just ask all the historians and specialists consulted for mainstream articles in Slate, The Atlantic, Vox, etc. Trump has definitely made some spooky, fascist-like promises: mass deportation of millions of undocumented migrants, an unconstitutional ban on Muslim immigration, and restricting freedom of the press. But these popular articles generally come to the same conclusion: there may be a fascistic flair to Trumpism, but at the genetic core the family relation just isn’t there.

Fascism has been notoriously slippery for historians to define — as an ideology, a governmental form, a political style. Umberto Eco famously noted that the out-of-joint features that make up fascism’s ur-form “cannot be organized into a system” because “many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism.” Fascism was never “a closed canonical apparatus” organized around foundational texts or ideas (like, say, Communism or Christianity).

Basically, it has proven difficult to generalize a definition of fascism that (1) is distinct from other forms of authoritarianism and (2) fits both Mussolini’s Italy and Hitler’s Germany, let alone fascist and proto-fascist swells elsewhere (Spain, France, Hungary, Scandinavia). Still, fascism does have its own tendencies, and the experts tend to cycle through them to assure readers that Trump does not fit the bill. Here are some of the big objections to the “fascist” label that come up:

Fascism is a revolutionary nationalist project, openly calling for the violent overthrow of the existing (liberal-democratic) state form. Trump, for all his criticisms of the Washington establishment, has made no attempt to argue that the existing state form and constitution need to be done away with. Yet.

People see violent clashes between Trump protesters and supporters and draw connections to the violence we historically associate with fascism. But violence was not simply an effect of fascism. Violence heated fascism’s blood — it made vital, committed subjects. Mussolini’s Blackshirts and Hitler’s “Storm Troops” were a brutal, cleansing force clearing the way for a new order. Compared to this, scenes of violence at Trump rallies, as shocking as they appear on replay, are still minor. Trump — a postmodern political P.T. Barnum — has learned to play up the anger of his crowds, and egging on supporters to punch protesters in the face is not a staple of his philosophy (if he has one); it’s part of the show.

Fascists presented themselves as the remedy to a widespread, poisonous individualism, which they perceived to be among the largest causes of the crises that had humiliated their nations (Germany’s defeat in WWI, the Great Depression, Italy’s social and economic decline). It would require a pretty serious blow to the head for someone to argue that Trump and the Republican Party are anti-individualists.

A strong, homegrown “racialist creed” is a typical feature of fascism, but racism is by no means a dead giveaway that someone or some group is fascist. Geoff Eley points out that such a creed, mixed with a violent hatred for liberal democracy and socialism, must fuse with “radical authoritarianism, militarized activism, and the drive for a centralist repressive state” to join the fascist family tree. Our liberal democracy has enough of its own racism to deal with. To pretend that racism and xenophobia are the exclusive property of fascism is self-serving and delusional.


Continues at: https://roarmag.org/essays/donald-trump ... elections/
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:18 pm

We'll be subjected to this meaningless debate about whether "fascist" applies to Trump right up to the moment the nukes launch, I guess.
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby coffin_dodger » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:24 pm

JackRiddler » Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:18 pm wrote:We'll be subjected to this meaningless debate about whether "fascist" applies to Trump right up to the moment the nukes launch, I guess.

There isn't going to be a nuclear war.
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:28 pm

Donald Trump is a fascist and a fucking asshole
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:43 pm

It doesn't matter whether he is fascist, since "he" is a gaping hole where a soul would be. And what matters is that he is fascISM. Its latest of many, flexible incarnations. He is very obviously playing the Kayfabe Mussolini/Hitler, and it doesn't matter if other aspects of the present situation do not fit an exact 1930s template. Beyond the generic and dreadful right-wing racisma and xenophobia, he's campaigning on rounding up 11 million residents, shutting down the borders, establishing a religious test for entry to the country ("exTREME vetting!"), promising ominous unspecified confrontations with the whole world, claiming that he will "take their oil," and says total chaos is already here and he's the only one to fix it, single-handedly. What the FUCK does the appropriateness of the label matter anymore?
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:06 pm

What the FUCK does the appropriateness of the label matter anymore?


it doesn't..... it just fun to say...and closer to the truth than what anyone else is saying about him

I could say he is a fucking pig and leave it at that ..but I won't
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby coffin_dodger » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:21 pm

Uncle Donald is the natural late-mid-to-end point of a trajectory that the US has been moving inexorably towards. The PNAC has consequences. Exceptionalism has consequences. Foreign policy has consequences. Unfettered extension of power has unfettered consequences. The US has a lot of chickens coming home to roost. The entire Western world, in fact.
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby American Dream » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:29 pm

Is Russia fascist?
Syria?
North Korea?
Iran?
Saudi Arabia?
Pakistan?
India?
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Re: The United States is not Fascist

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:47 pm

I don't live in Russia

I don't live in Syria

I don't live in NK

I don't live in Iran

I don't live in SA

I don't live in Pakistan

I don't live in India

I don't want a fascist cock sucking pig as president of the United States...that's where I live
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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