What constitutes Misogyny?

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:20 am

brekin wrote:Canadian_Watcher wrote:


Project Willow wrote:
Assholes.

it had to be said.


Are vulgar labels tolerated and promoted here? By a mod?


I'm not a mod, brekin. Try to keep up. I saw after a week that my status as mod was going to be bad for the community. I saw this because of a gang mentality ... following me around or more accurately following around any topic that might have to do with female strength/authority and deriding me all in the name of 'fairness.' Put another way - temper tantrums were such that I gave in to the howling and nagging and stuck a soother the babies' mouths by resigning.

Most of them went on their merry ways after that, which was my hope. And after some thought, Stephen Morgan came back (he wasn't a part of the wailing mob I'm referring to) which is good. Even though he and I don't see eye to eye we do manage to have proper and civil discourse.

But.. there are others now, not as eager to put down the mantle of 'scorned man.' You are among them. I don't know what your problem is, but I take from your hostility that you cannot STAND (nay!) to have a woman of all things tell you what's what without sugar coating it. Do I need to get out a clean diaper for you? I'm not going to, so you can sit and stink.

brekin wrote: Are you sharing PW's take on barrcuda's post about the reality of the ball girl clip?


no, and I'm not sure that she included barracuda in her comment. I am leaning towards believing that she wasn't.

brekin wrote:I assumed the way this thread was going it would need a steady supply of people to accuse and denounce, but I thought it would take awhile before the inner circle would be selected.


ridiculous. as per.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:22 am

brekin wrote:The winds of change shift fast in this thread.


not fast enough.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Peregrine » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:30 am

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Project Willow wrote:Assholes.


it had to be said.


nah.

Furnace man? Yup, asshole.
Brekin? Nah. not really. Although the questioning of your mental health was a laugh & an asshole move.
barracuda? Through & through, but not for the stuff on this thread. :wink

'cmon, I feel like I'm at highschool again... :wallhead:

Canadian_watcher wrote:I saw after a week that my status as mod was going to be bad for the community. I saw this because of a gang mentality ... following me around or more accurately following around any topic that might have to do with female strength/authority and deriding me all in the name of 'fairness.' Put another way - temper tantrums were such that I gave in to the howling and nagging and stuck a soother the babies' mouths by resigning.


I still really, really wish you had stuck around. Regardless of howling & nagging. :hug1:
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:34 am

Peregrine wrote:
'cmon, I feel like I'm at highschool again... :wallhead:


So you want me to let him attack and not counter? If I were a mod, I'd be aiming this at the bully, not the bullied.

He has done NOTHING but agitate and argue about the same thing for pages and pages of posts. He won't address the topic of the thread, and his posts are inflammatory. I will not accept being put in a corner or being the 'bad guy' in this.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby WakeUpAndLive » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:38 am

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
'cmon, I feel like I'm at highschool again... :wallhead:


So you want me to let him attack and not counter? If I were a mod, I'd be aiming this at the bully, not the bullied.

He has done NOTHING but agitate and argue about the same thing for pages and pages of posts. He won't address the topic of the thread, and his posts are inflammatory. I will not accept being put in a corner or being the 'bad guy' in this.



I believe it is said that our perception of others reveals much about our own traits.


In contrast, negative perceptions of others are linked to higher levels of narcissism and antisocial behavior. "A huge suite of negative personality traits are associated with viewing others negatively," Wood says. "The simple tendency to see people negatively indicates a greater likelihood of depression and various personality disorders." Given that negative perceptions of others may underlie several personality disorders, finding techniques to get people to see others more positively could promote the cessation of behavior patterns associated with several different personality disorders simultaneously, Wood says.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 165441.htm
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Postby Peregrine » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:40 am

Not saying your a 'bad guy' or deflecting off him, it just seems when namecalling is introduced, it goes downhill. Jeebus, I understand the frustration, I'm right there, but calling people assholes gets us nowhere, it just throws defences up in an argument.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:44 am

Gang bullying is a serial bully with colleagues. Gangs can occur anywhere, but flourish in corporate bullying climates. If the bully is an extrovert, they are likely to be leading from the front; they may also be a shouter and screamer, and thus easily identifiable (and recordable on tape and video-able). If the bully is an introvert, that person will be in the background initiating the mayhem but probably not taking an active part, and may thus be harder to identify. Introvert bullies are the most dangerous bullies.

Half the people in the gang are happy for the opportunity to behave badly, they gain gratification from the feeling of power and control, and enjoy the patronage, protection and reward from the serial bully. The other half of the gang are coerced into joining in, usually through fear of being the next target if they don't. If anything backfires, one of these coercees will be the scapegoat and sacrificial lamb on whom enraged targets will be encouraged to vent their anger. The serial bully watches from a safe distance. Serial bullies gain a great deal of gratification from encouraging and watching others engage in conflict, especially those who might otherwise pool negative information about them.
Gang bullying or group bullying is often called mobbing and usually involves scapegoating and victimisation.


Is this your fight somehow, or are you just capitalizing on a perceived weakness in me?

edit: this was directed at WUaL, for interfering in a situation of which s/he has no part.

How do you square your treatment of me with your piety?
Last edited by Canadian_watcher on Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:47 am

Peregrine wrote:Not saying your a 'bad guy' or deflecting off him, it just seems when namecalling is introduced, it goes downhill. Jeebus, I understand the frustration, I'm right there, but calling people assholes gets us nowhere, it just throws defences up in an argument.


We're on page 70-something of this thread and I've endured HEAPS of abuse - mostly with grace. I'm sorry to have supported Willow in her end-of-my-rope insult.

I'm asking you now if you could be more perceptive about the covert-style anti-social behaviour which is happening right now, under your nose? Do they have to come right out and call me a cunt? Obviously they are playing the game.. Willow and I opted to go for a precise word, and voluntarily took the risk of being called out, but if you like it better when people just dance around it, writing long diatribes and acting superior, I can play it that way.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:05 pm


Suffering in Silence


I’ve always been a liberal guy, yet until recently I was quite strongly anti-feminist. The truth is, this is not unusual: there simply are not that many male feminists. So why is this the case?

I certainly don’t think that I was, or that most men are, misogynistic, at least not intentionally so. If you had asked me, I would have told you that both sexes ought to be treated equally. However, I would also have told you that the problem of unequal treatment had been largely solved.

Furthermore, my ideas of feminists were of women who thought that they were better than men, or who wanted things both ways: to be considered equal, yet given preferential treatment.

Although shockingly wrong on both counts, I believe this view to be considerably widespread. So it seems that many men are not feminists because until and unless they challenge the stereotype of feminism they will reject it.

How can such an absurd view survive? Firstly I believe that this negative stereotype prompts people to filter out evidence that would support feminism. For example, look at almost all prestigious professions (barristers, surgeons, chief executives) and you will see that men are decidedly over-represented. But if you believe that the problems of unequal treatment have been solved, it is very easy to accept that these imbalances will just go away in time, or that women could enter these professions, but simply don’t want to.

In either case, there is no reason for you to worry about the imbalance, or act to change it in any way. The evidence has not led you to feminism, because you have pulled down a mental shutter; you are not giving it a fair hearing.

Why is it so easy to accept the conclusion that there is no sexism any more? I believe it is because sexism is now much less obvious than it once was. If women were denied the vote, or were openly paid less than men, we would easily see that something was badly wrong. But today women are legally protected from both these injustices. Pay discrimination today is both less pronounced than it once was, and far harder to prove to be occurring. It is therefore very easy to ignore: point out the pay gap to someone, and they will likely tell you “oh, that’s because they take time out for childcare”.

Social prejudices are even more subtle, if you do not experience them directly. An example form personal experience is in order here. I was prompted to consider, and soon to adopt, feminism after a conversation with a female student in my first term at university. She happened to mention that she found it scary to walk the streets at night. I wasn’t sympathetic, and I told her she was being paranoid and nothing was going to happen to her.

It is crucially important that you understand that I was absolutely confident in this statement. To me, women hardly ever got harassed, to the extent that it was not something to worry about, just as you don’t need to worry about plane crashes, lightning strikes, or axe murderers.
Of course, you know, and I soon found out, that this is definitely not the case.

My friend looked right at me and relayed a long list of horrifying personal experiences. Twenty-something total strangers asking her out, persistently, since she was fourteen. A man following her home, so that she had to walk around the block so he wouldn’t know where she lived. Lewd comments. Never knowing whether any of this would progress to something worse, and so always worrying that it might. And all of this happening on a roughly weekly basis.

I can honestly tell you that I have never been so shocked, before or since. Because as a male I never see this happening, let alone have I had anything remotely similar happen to me. I can barely even begin to imagine what it must feel like, and I shan’t even try to describe it here. The point is that this experience, which is to me an incontrovertible reason to be a feminist, is not available to any man, unless he is told about it.

As soon I was told, the shutters came down. Feminism was something that made sense, and that was probably right. I started reading the articles on this site, and slowly I came to grips with the huge array of gender prejudices which subtly hold women back. I was filled with angry questions: Why aren’t their more women MPs? Why are girls given dolls and boys toy swords? Why does my university pool club have a separate women’s competition? Why is so much advertising comprised of soft pornography?

So: few men are feminists because men don’t have access to the experiences that would cause them to become feminists. Therefore raising awareness is the way to go. But how to put the case forcefully enough? A statistic about the levels of harassment may well fail to do the trick; much more effective is a forceful, confrontational, attention seizing effort.

The crux of the issue is that things as they now stand are utterly and completely unacceptable. I took it for granted that I could walk where I liked, when I liked and be safe. I feel able do so without taking any precautions. Most importantly I would be simply livid if this ceased to be the case. I expect the vast majority of men are in the same situation. Because of this I have found it astonishing that many women seem willing to put up with the despicable treatment they receive.

On the one hand, I can see why this is the case. Sadly, nothing is going to change quickly. Ending harassment will be an extremely difficult process, and it will perhaps be impossible to completely eradicate the problem. Given this, the only way for women to live is to find some way of putting up with it. No one can be angry all the time; and human beings are capable of putting up with seemingly intolerable burdens.

Acceptance of harassment is something that must be challenged if feminism is to continue to make progress
But I think many cases go beyond this. I have spoken with women who just do not seem to think of harassment as a problem, or if they do are completely and almost cheerfully resigned to it. I was arguing with someone about feminism, and I told her the story of my friend having to walk around the block because she was being followed. “Oh yeah, that’s happened to me,” she said, the implication being “so what?”

I spoke to another girl I knew about harassment, and she admitted that she also experienced it often, and then remarked “I think it’s just because we’re young though”, as if this could excuse it.

I am sure that this acceptance is something that must be challenged if feminism is to continue to make progress. Firstly because women must cease to accept inferior treatment before they become feminists, and secondly because they must kick up a fuss about this treatment if men are to become aware of it, and then to become feminists themselves. This can be attempted through protest and grass-roots action, but a crucial component is simply individual feminists convincing other individuals one by one. This can be done by kicking up a good fuss whenever harassment occurs, showing that it does happen and is not okay.

Feminism has achieved a lot, but we have not yet reached equality. If we are to continue to make progress, we must fight hard to highlight injustices at every opportunity: our reactions must be as large as the problems themselves. If women appear to accept unequal treatment, we may never be able to end it.

About the author
George Mason is a student of Philosophy, Politics and Economics at Magdalen College, Oxford. He has been a feminist for an embarrassingly short period, and is now attempting to make up for lost time.


This author is talking about physical threats and assaults, but the experiences of women who have had their voices and self-worth stifled are equally important.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby WakeUpAndLive » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:14 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:Firstly because women must cease to accept inferior treatment before they become feminists, and secondly because they must kick up a fuss about this treatment if men are to become aware of it, and then to become feminists themselves. This can be attempted through protest and grass-roots action, but a crucial component is simply individual feminists convincing other individuals one by one. This can be done by kicking up a good fuss whenever harassment occurs, showing that it does happen and is not okay.



Great lets take away all that is man and replace us with a bunch of feminists. Keep kicking up a fuss, you sure are doing a number on all of us here.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:16 pm

WakeUpAndLive wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:Firstly because women must cease to accept inferior treatment before they become feminists, and secondly because they must kick up a fuss about this treatment if men are to become aware of it, and then to become feminists themselves. This can be attempted through protest and grass-roots action, but a crucial component is simply individual feminists convincing other individuals one by one. This can be done by kicking up a good fuss whenever harassment occurs, showing that it does happen and is not okay.



Great lets take away all that is man and replace us with a bunch of feminists. Keep kicking up a fuss, you sure are doing a number on all of us here.


I rest my case.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby WakeUpAndLive » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:18 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
WakeUpAndLive wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:Firstly because women must cease to accept inferior treatment before they become feminists, and secondly because they must kick up a fuss about this treatment if men are to become aware of it, and then to become feminists themselves. This can be attempted through protest and grass-roots action, but a crucial component is simply individual feminists convincing other individuals one by one. This can be done by kicking up a good fuss whenever harassment occurs, showing that it does happen and is not okay.



Great lets take away all that is man and replace us with a bunch of feminists. Keep kicking up a fuss, you sure are doing a number on all of us here.


I rest my case.


BALANCE, something that quote (and in my opinion your stance) sorely lacks.


*edit*
I meant to green that mark as sarcastic. Anyways, I think there are better avenues of expression than kicking up a fuss, which I should have just said instead of being sarcastic and possibly rude.
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Re: Re:

Postby Peregrine » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:19 pm

You know what? Have at it. I think I'll just stay off this thread as I'm thoroughly frustrated with it (mostly with the majority of the fellas not "getting it") I've mostly just read, I've not contributed a whole lot, save for my experience in the construction industry. Sorry, I find name calling jarring & said something.

Canadian_watcher wrote:
I'm asking you now if you could be more perceptive about the covert-style anti-social behaviour which is happening right now, under your nose?


I thought it really stupid that brekin questioned your mental health & sympathized with the asshole furnace guy & pointed it out. Yanno, I could go back & re-read the entire thread, but I've got better things to do at the moment like take my kid to the park & feed the damn ducks & pay my damn bills. I've been questioning myself lately on why I'm on a forum that I hardly have time to contribute as a mod & participate by getting my hackles up, squabbling with blokes who don't damn well get it & seems they never will. I want to enjoy my kid, she's three & a half, I promised her we're gonna make cookies & go to the park she wants my time but here I am. I'm out.

Do they have to come right out and call me a cunt?


if this had been the case, I would have had their asses banned.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Peregrine » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:23 pm

WakeUpAndLive wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:Firstly because women must cease to accept inferior treatment before they become feminists, and secondly because they must kick up a fuss about this treatment if men are to become aware of it, and then to become feminists themselves. This can be attempted through protest and grass-roots action, but a crucial component is simply individual feminists convincing other individuals one by one. This can be done by kicking up a good fuss whenever harassment occurs, showing that it does happen and is not okay.



Great lets take away all that is man and replace us with a bunch of feminists. Keep kicking up a fuss, you sure are doing a number on all of us here.


Now that there is a dick comment. Nowhere in that paragraph was a statement to remove man. Jeesus christ on a pogo stick. I'm out for now, this is ridiculous.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby WakeUpAndLive » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:25 pm

Peregrine wrote:
WakeUpAndLive wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:Firstly because women must cease to accept inferior treatment before they become feminists, and secondly because they must kick up a fuss about this treatment if men are to become aware of it, and then to become feminists themselves. This can be attempted through protest and grass-roots action, but a crucial component is simply individual feminists convincing other individuals one by one. This can be done by kicking up a good fuss whenever harassment occurs, showing that it does happen and is not okay.



Great lets take away all that is man and replace us with a bunch of feminists. Keep kicking up a fuss, you sure are doing a number on all of us here.


Now that there is a dick comment. Nowhere in that paragraph was a statement to remove man. Jeesus christ on a pogo stick. I'm out for now, this is ridiculous.



Check my post above, because it sure does.
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