Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

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here's a clip for you Joe

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If in 1-2 years, new evidence really vindicates your muzzle statement, I'll be the first to apologize.

But why wait 1-2 years? And surely the onus is on the proponents of wearing masks to come up with evidence as to its effectiveness. Here's a quote from research about the need for surgeons to wear masks during operations:

Based upon the findings of this review, National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines state that there is ‘limited evidence concerning the use of non-sterile theatre wear’ such as surgical masks when trying to minimise the risk of surgical site infection, although there was an overall ‘consensus that wearing non-sterile theatre wear is important in maintaining theatre discipline’

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/ you can research the efficacy of masks more at your own leisure.

Two more remark vis-a-vis your maskshaming (which frankly i find "hair-pulllingly frustrating" on a socalled rigorous intuition antifascist board amidst what looks suspiciously like a worldwide fascist takeover ):
1. whatever you think about their efficacy, there is little doubt that on top of that they are a striking visual destined to remind everyone in everyday life that they have reason to be afraid and they can be viewed symbolically
2. if it was a matter of "common decency" i'd actually be ok with it but sadly it's a matter of general law and being fined a hefty fine or being denied entrance to essential stuff in a lot of countries now

[SonicG]

Asian cultures have a different view of masks...

[§ê¢rꆧ]

I really appreciate this:

<...>
I do think the class detest (neigh genocide FAIAP) and 1% exceptionalism it enables is disgusting.
I do think way too many people are going to be harmed and die unnecessarily.
I do think big medical is profiting.
I do the think the rich are getting richer.
I do think Gates et al are sickening opportunuists.
I do think COVID is being *used* dramatically

But ....

<...>



Many people are vulnerable to the virus. You may be a carrier and not know it.

This is just as true as lockdown etc is destroying lives of the vulnerable independently of the illness.

(Emphasis added)

This site which AA shared upthread is a great place to dig into Webb: https://sdny.news/?s=George+Webb

To me, Webb does seem to have a sense of charming-plain-folks-honest-production-values ...... but he also impresses creepy-sociopath-who-knows-how-to-BS-like-a-boss values on me.

Nevermind the kw hijack of truth-teller Gary Webb!

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Asian cultures have a different view of masks...

It is my understanding that asian people wear them mostly against air pollution:

Air pollution causes an estimated 1.6 million premature deaths in China each year, the study team notes.

At consumer outlets in Beijing, Loh and colleagues purchased nine different mask types that claimed to protect against fine particle pollution known as PM2.5, which includes soot, droplets and other particles smaller than 2.5 microns in diameter.

These tiny particles are components of vehicle exhaust and industrial emissions and can penetrate deep into the lungs, and from there, enter the bloodstream.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN1I426I

[Joe Hillshoist]

Dupe

[Joe Hillshoist]

Asian cultures have a different view of masks...

It is my understanding that asian people wear them mostly against air pollution:

Air pollution causes an estimated 1.6 million premature deaths in China each year, the study team notes.

At consumer outlets in Beijing, Loh and colleagues purchased nine different mask types that claimed to protect against fine particle pollution known as PM2.5, which includes soot, droplets and other particles smaller than 2.5 microns in diameter.

These tiny particles are components of vehicle exhaust and industrial emissions and can penetrate deep into the lungs, and from there, enter the bloodstream.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN1I426I

Asians also use masks because of SARS and other viruses like the flu.

Speaking of masks, that bloke in your vid, on the phone, showed how effectively they muzzle people.

I'm honestly surprised it took a pandemic to make you realise the US (and most nations) is (are) a nation of finks.

[liminalOyster]

0_0, that quote is from a paper about the efficacy of surgical masks in operating settings. Never mind that its motivated in part by NHS budget cuts and where corners might be cut or that it reaches the conclusion that its not clear if surgical masks are effective in that setting, it is mostly about bacterial infection at the site of an open wound and appears to have approximately no relevance whatsoever to the specific basically unanimous consensus that proper masks help to curb COVID (a *virus*) transmission or that the S Korean data seems to support this.

Its hard to ignore that the spectacular right wing half of our current fascist PTB have, like you, worked hard to n associate resisting this basic gesture (not too far off from covering your mouth when you sneeze) with resisting fascism, however absurd that may be.

[SonicG]

The mask has various purposes in Asia. Smog and exhaust is definitely a huge one in China and SEast Asia, especially with the majority on motorbikes. In Japan, it has been for cold/flu (protect self and others is the common thinking) and also to protect against hay fever - to which I cannot speak. I think the stereotype about Japanese shyness is quite true, especially women, like to hide their face, with the added benefit of no make up required, so people might wear masks for that reason and others...Before that weak Kafka imitator, Yukio Mishima was the most-translated Japanese author and riffs very poetically about Japanese and masks in his autobiographical "Confessions of a Mask" - the book that made him famous there...

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Speaking of masks, that bloke in your vid, on the phone, showed how effectively they muzzle people.

Symbolism is the practice or art of using an object or a word to represent an abstract idea. An action, person, place, word, or object can all have a symbolic meaning.

Its hard to ignore that the spectacular right wing half of our current fascist PTB have, like you, worked hard to n associate resisting this basic gesture (not too far off from covering your mouth when you sneeze) with resisting fascism, however absurd that may be.

To expand on your analogy: should there be fines for sneezing without covering your mouth (with your elbow off course)? Should people who do that be prosecuted?

The mask has various purposes in Asia.

Thank you for your interesting reply. I also read somewhere that the popularity of facemasks in Asia might be traceable to the influence of taoism with its focus on breathing.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Speaking of masks, that bloke in your vid, on the phone, showed how effectively they muzzle people.

Symbolism is the practice or art of using an object or a word to represent an abstract idea. An action, person, place, word, or object can all have a symbolic meaning.

Yes it is.

I guess a symbol has to gave some relevence and face masks and being quiet don't go together for me.

How do you feel about the guy in Western Australia who got jailed for breaking quarantine?

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I'm a law abiding citizen for the most part Joe and when someone breaks the law it's to be expected they get in trouble for it (wish i could say the same about corporations and governments breaking the law!) . All the more reason to have a frank and open discussion about what laws are being introduced. Because i am against a lot of the stuff that's being pushed through now. And if worrying about incursions on basic freedoms (like protesting, having visitors over, being able to make a living, leaving your house) or the criminalisation of disease makes you a right-wing nutter in some people's eyes, that's on them imo.

muzzle (verb):: 'to stop a person or organization from expressing independent opinions'

[Joe Hillshoist]

I'm a law abiding citizen for the most part Joe and when someone breaks the law it's to be expected they get in trouble for it (wish i could say the same about corporations and governments breaking the law!) . All the more reason to have a frank and open discussion about what laws are being introduced. Because i am against a lot of the stuff that's being pushed through now. And if worrying about incursions on basic freedoms (like protesting, having visitors over, being able to make a living, leaving your house) or the criminalisation of disease makes you a right-wing nutter in some people's eyes, that's on them imo.

muzzle (verb):: 'to stop a person or organization from expressing independent opinions'

Cos I'm using a shitty old tablet I constantly lose posts. Usually after putting in a bit of effort to sound fair and witty and the all rest, so I just end up sounding irritated.

Where do you stand on whether or not this is a real thing and have you looked at the figures for excess deaths this year compared to other years/averages in the recent past?

Total deaths from year to year for the period so far this year, etcetc.

People talk about the deaths this lockdown will cause but it will also prevent others, especially cos people aren't out partying, taking to many drugs or too much grog then driving, getting into stupid fights etc etc. Less workplace deaths ?? Well among some class of workers probably. All of which may come out eventually. So those figures may be lowered by the lockdown itself without the addition of COVID19. Which increases its mortality rate further. Or not, only time will tell.

So yeah ... As far as I can tell there lots more dead people than "normal" in a lot of places that gave been hit hard by the virus at this stage this year.

So to me that qualifies as an emergency. The thing with emergencies is they are not normal situations. You don't carry on as normal during an emergency cos doing so can pose a serious risk to your own life and limb and to others.

The limits of that ... Well I'm not into contract tracing apps. That can be done anyway using standard software and legal access. It's probably fair enough in this case.m I might not like it personally but I understand why most people expect government to do it.

The guy who got locked up .. I've got no sympathy for him. If he'd made a little effort to be less infectious to the world I might but he didn't give a shit that he potentially spread a sometime fatal contagious virus that's new to humanity and appears to fuck with anyone who gets it even the mild or asymptomatic cases, so tough luck mate.

Again it's a situation that 95% of people would probably support so my opinion is irrelevant too.

In the course of researching this reply I discovered Australia (including NSW) has one if the least stringent lock down regimes in the world. I'm surprised by that. So maybe things are much worse for people in terms of restrictions and what gave than I'm experiencing.

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Hey Joe, since you asked: I think the dangers are being widely exaggerated. And the advice taken by officials worldwide seems to be one-sided as does the the range of opinions allowed in mainstream media on this. But i'm not a virologist or doctor and i certainly wouldn't argue that people don't die. But whatever the risk may be, the solution imo should be mostly sought in reliable information, a trust in people to do the right thing in their own interest (and that of their loved ones) and a healthcare that is not profit-based. And not or only with the utmost restraint in coercion and top down authoritarianism.

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Sweden – deaths per day:


news from the UK that should give everyone pause as to how temporary this is all meant to be:

well worth a watch!