What constitutes Misogyny?

[Canadian_watcher]

This piece is from the blog "People of Color Organize." It talks about the patriarchal bias of the dynamics of organizing ... it speaks to the particular challenges women still face when trying to gain a place in areas still dominated by men. (I would consider this board to be one of those spaces, as many of the the subject matters covered here are traditionally "male.")

Examples of sexism in political organizing:

Despite its pervasive existence, sexism within social movements and organizations is seen as less important than sexism in wider society. Believing in equality does not mean that men no longer experience male privilege. Working with progressive men can have its own frustrations as male comrades feel they are not guilty of sexism – often because of the lack of intention to be sexist – without truly analyzing their actions within a framework of dominance.

· Men are more readily perceived as experts on ‘hard’ political issues such as war and economics. Women have to struggle a lot harder to prove their capabilities as activists, their intelligence and understanding on political issues, and face an uphill battle to be taken seriously as committed organizers, researchers, journalists and writers. In order to do this, women often have to adopt authoritative roles in order to be validated in political organizing.

· Feminism is still not seen as central to revolutionary struggle; instead it is relegated to a special-interest issue and is not considered a broader collective struggle. This results in the frequent trivialization of women’s issues – particularly violence against women and reproductive justice – as being secondary to “more important” political work.

· Most political organizations and meetings are still dominated by men, and even more dominated by male speakers. Some women are frequently tokenized by being asked to moderate or speak in public which – intentionally or not – invisiblizes the culture of male domination within the organization, especially as the gendered roles of secretarial work, clean up, and childcare still falls upon women.

· The emotional work of supporting one another and ensuring our personal well-being is perhaps one of the most pervasive hetero-patriarchal patterns that continues to persist in our movements. The spiritual nurturing of our communities is largely met by the tireless efforts of women, who are daily checking-in, cooking, planning birthdays, doing hospital visits, providing shoulders to cry on, and so much more.

· Women are more likely to challenge men on sexist comments rather than men challenging other men, and the general assumption is that women discussing sexism are “pulling the sex card” or are making false accusations which leaves women feeling guilty and/or unsafe in raising such issues. Unfortunately, women’s issues and concerns are generally belittled or invalidated, unless validated by other men. These two points highlight a general disrespect for women’s voices in discussing their own oppression.

· Women discussing sexism are often characterized as “divisive” or as “emotional and over-reactive”, so women often feel like they have to moderate what they say so that men don’t feel attacked. Many men are likely to shut down emotionally or get defensive when women want to discuss specific incidents of sexism instead of listening and understanding what is being said.

· Given the particular socialization of women under patriarchy, seemingly minor comments or incidents can make women feel humiliated, angry or upset; yet such comments are often dismissed as harmless or unintentional. It is rare that men will end friendships or alliances with other men over patriarchal and sexist patterns, compared to some other sectarian-political beef.

· Women continue to be sexually objectified in political circles. Women of colour and/or femmes in particular are fetishized, obscuring the dynamics of racism, fatphobia, ability, and hetero-patriarchy behind ‘personal preferences’.

Some Suggestions

Believing in equality does not mean that men no longer experience male privilege, nor does being better than “mainstream” society mean that men are absolved of taking responsibility for sexism and patriarchy. So some basic suggestions (this list is not exhaustive, just where I am at right now):

<snip>

· Realize that just because you might not find somebody’s behaviour offensive, women might have different boundaries that have been shaped by a history of socialization under patriarchy. There is a difference between listening & respectful dialogue and invalidating or denying that an incident of gender oppression was experienced.

· The silence and denial of sexual violence and sexual harassment in activist communities is unacceptable. Be committed to accountability processes – don’t say you are too busy or have more important things to do. The tendency to blame survivors for the divisions and upheaval that may result from such processes is problematic. As allies, do empower survivors to regain and maintain control over accountability processes. Unless you have a better solution or are actively part of growing an alternative to deal with interpersonal gendered violence, definitely do not judge women who maybe forced to resort to the state apparatus. The only ones ‘hurting the struggle’ are those that want to deny or minimize the experiences, realities, and traumas of sexual violence.

· Create an atmosphere that is empowering, and open especially to new and/or young women. Share skills and knowledge in a non-paternalistic manner to build the leadership of women, especially women of colour.

<snip>

Harsha Walia wrote this piece originally in 2006. This piece is a really basic primer and so does tend to generalize across race, ability, class, queerness etc. Harsha is a South Asian organizer and writer based in Vancouver, Coast Salish Territories. She has been active in feminist, anti racist, migrant justice, anti authoritarian, and anti capitalist struggles for over a decade and is a firm supporter of Palestinian liberation as well as Indigenous self-determination across Turtle Island. You can find her at http://twitter.com/HarshaWalia/

[norton ash]

Having left about 15 comments unsubmitted over the past few days, here are a few non-sequiturs gleaned from this Canadian life. And a confession that my own misogyny is fueled by how the middle-class women in my work and family milieu behave.

I observe women who love punishing wait staff with poor tips for mistakes that originated in the kitchen. I have seen the adrenalized gleam and look of triumph on the face of a woman as she snaps her phone shut after berating an underling or service person.

I've walked my dogs for 20 years now. If they poop in front of a passerby, sometimes the passerby will say "I hope you're going to pick that up" or "Got a bag for that?" It's happened about a dozen times, and 100% of these passersby were women. Two young well-coiffed women in North Face running suits stopped to look back to see if I was following through, whereby I responded, 'Are you the police?' and they hurried off. I'm sure if I was wearing a jogging suit and fanny pack instead of faded jeans, they'd assume I was a responsible peer instead of some dumb slob to be snipped at. (And, no, I don't think the comments were motivated by honest concern as mothers or environmentalists.)

I'm sick of hearing about 'retail therapy', hair and skin products I might want to try, and the celebration of clothes, jewelry, and hairstyles in the office. The culture of middle-class women I know make non-consumers feel shabby about their clothes, homes, yards, and kitchens. They are the ones who insist on the new, the fashionable and for the most part, mass-produced.

That metrosexuality based on hatching new insecurities in men or raising the bar on fashion sense (i.e., spending money and becoming more shallow) is somehow virtuous.

Personal office vendettas that simmer for years, smart but mousily-dressed or socially-challenged introverts forever passed over for promotion, even in the civil service. I am convinced that how a potential supervisor looks or comports herself publicly is the new standard, even if the department is accounting or research, and interdepartmental meetings are as public as it will get for him and her. This I will lay at the feet of female administration who place greater importance on appearance and social skills.

I really do consider my own misogyny, and seek to excise it, know that it's wrong and irrational. But the glowing embers tend to get stoked when a new dress is greeted with squeals of delight, while single mom in her 1999 business suit works quietly in the corner. When I hear a well-dressed woman berating a desk clerk, glancing over her shoulder to seek affirmation... and I make a gentle 'take-it-down-a-notch' gesture and she makes a face in return. When my sister carries on like Queen Monster with her kids, husband and extended family... I ask if everything's okay, get snapped at, ask what's wrong and get a tearful rant about what assholes we all are and how hard she works.

And I fully realize that this doesn't compare with being terrorized or abused at the hands of the patriarchy, or the real pit-of-the-stomach fear of dark streets or men who say vile things.

I will say that a lot of women who should really know better (as too many have, indeed, been victimized) about kindness, tolerance, and reigning in the urge to scold or correct can get my goat. The impulse to gang up on the noncomformist or humble one. The cult of consumerism, of 'having it all' and how it plays into the hands of the corporatocracy.

My point all along has been that bullying exists in many forms, and I hate to see it. I've certainly had my share at the hands of both sexes, and seeing words like sexist prick dummy small-dicked ignorant asshole... or the opportunities so enthusiastically seized to wail like Charlie Parker when a man says something stupid here...

makes me kinda sorta understand the calls for proportion and more moderate conversation. Although I can also understand that extremism in defense of the greater emancipation may be no vice.

Last word to the goddess.

[hava1]

CW, from the little brush with your feminism in the "circumcision" thread, I have great doubts how different your way of "modding" a space would be. The picture you chose to place in response to my post which was in no way offensive, was very much male chauvinistic, picturing two men going "ooff", added to a lovely "fuck" in your closing statement. All this justified by "i am protecting women and children".

I have to say that recently this issue kind of stares me in the face, from many corners in my virtual life, and is also at the center of some public discussions on "the real motivation of middle class feminists". I find this kind of aggression not the least stifling, than "patriarchal hegemony", but a bit more confusing and sad, as I am also supposed to be thankful to the sado "Sista" for "protecting me".

I am grateful to all the crazed women that took the lead in the struggles of women to be free of subjugation, but on a personal day to day basis, I make it a rule not to take shit from anyone, least of all those who "protect me". It took me a few decades to shed off the false obligation to Israeli male "protectors" who raped me as a matter of entitlement (as a reward for their "protection"), I hope that releasing myself from "protection" of women, will not take such a long time.

This piece is from the blog "People of Color Organize." It talks about the patriarchal bias of the dynamics of organizing ... it speaks to the particular challenges women still face when trying to gain a place in areas still dominated by men. (I would consider this board to be one of those spaces, as many of the the subject matters covered here are traditionally "male.")

Examples of sexism in political organizing:

Despite its pervasive existence, sexism within social movements and organizations is seen as less important than sexism in wider society. Believing in equality does not mean that men no longer experience male privilege. Working with progressive men can have its own frustrations as male comrades feel they are not guilty of sexism – often because of the lack of intention to be sexist – without truly analyzing their actions within a framework of dominance.

· Men are more readily perceived as experts on ‘hard’ political issues such as war and economics. Women have to struggle a lot harder to prove their capabilities as activists, their intelligence and understanding on political issues, and face an uphill battle to be taken seriously as committed organizers, researchers, journalists and writers. In order to do this, women often have to adopt authoritative roles in order to be validated in political organizing.

· Feminism is still not seen as central to revolutionary struggle; instead it is relegated to a special-interest issue and is not considered a broader collective struggle. This results in the frequent trivialization of women’s issues – particularly violence against women and reproductive justice – as being secondary to “more important” political work.

· Most political organizations and meetings are still dominated by men, and even more dominated by male speakers. Some women are frequently tokenized by being asked to moderate or speak in public which – intentionally or not – invisiblizes the culture of male domination within the organization, especially as the gendered roles of secretarial work, clean up, and childcare still falls upon women.

· The emotional work of supporting one another and ensuring our personal well-being is perhaps one of the most pervasive hetero-patriarchal patterns that continues to persist in our movements. The spiritual nurturing of our communities is largely met by the tireless efforts of women, who are daily checking-in, cooking, planning birthdays, doing hospital visits, providing shoulders to cry on, and so much more.

· Women are more likely to challenge men on sexist comments rather than men challenging other men, and the general assumption is that women discussing sexism are “pulling the sex card” or are making false accusations which leaves women feeling guilty and/or unsafe in raising such issues. Unfortunately, women’s issues and concerns are generally belittled or invalidated, unless validated by other men. These two points highlight a general disrespect for women’s voices in discussing their own oppression.

· Women discussing sexism are often characterized as “divisive” or as “emotional and over-reactive”, so women often feel like they have to moderate what they say so that men don’t feel attacked. Many men are likely to shut down emotionally or get defensive when women want to discuss specific incidents of sexism instead of listening and understanding what is being said.

· Given the particular socialization of women under patriarchy, seemingly minor comments or incidents can make women feel humiliated, angry or upset; yet such comments are often dismissed as harmless or unintentional. It is rare that men will end friendships or alliances with other men over patriarchal and sexist patterns, compared to some other sectarian-political beef.

· Women continue to be sexually objectified in political circles. Women of colour and/or femmes in particular are fetishized, obscuring the dynamics of racism, fatphobia, ability, and hetero-patriarchy behind ‘personal preferences’.

Some Suggestions

Believing in equality does not mean that men no longer experience male privilege, nor does being better than “mainstream” society mean that men are absolved of taking responsibility for sexism and patriarchy. So some basic suggestions (this list is not exhaustive, just where I am at right now):

<snip>

· Realize that just because you might not find somebody’s behaviour offensive, women might have different boundaries that have been shaped by a history of socialization under patriarchy. There is a difference between listening & respectful dialogue and invalidating or denying that an incident of gender oppression was experienced.

· The silence and denial of sexual violence and sexual harassment in activist communities is unacceptable. Be committed to accountability processes – don’t say you are too busy or have more important things to do. The tendency to blame survivors for the divisions and upheaval that may result from such processes is problematic. As allies, do empower survivors to regain and maintain control over accountability processes. Unless you have a better solution or are actively part of growing an alternative to deal with interpersonal gendered violence, definitely do not judge women who maybe forced to resort to the state apparatus. The only ones ‘hurting the struggle’ are those that want to deny or minimize the experiences, realities, and traumas of sexual violence.

· Create an atmosphere that is empowering, and open especially to new and/or young women. Share skills and knowledge in a non-paternalistic manner to build the leadership of women, especially women of colour.

<snip>

Harsha Walia wrote this piece originally in 2006. This piece is a really basic primer and so does tend to generalize across race, ability, class, queerness etc. Harsha is a South Asian organizer and writer based in Vancouver, Coast Salish Territories. She has been active in feminist, anti racist, migrant justice, anti authoritarian, and anti capitalist struggles for over a decade and is a firm supporter of Palestinian liberation as well as Indigenous self-determination across Turtle Island. You can find her at http://twitter.com/HarshaWalia/

[Canadian_watcher]

You know norton, if you hadn't made this post so obviously about your disdain for the members of one gender I would think it a marvelous piece.

I'm going to answer piece by piece, because there are several things I think bear investigation:

And a confession that my own misogyny is fueled by how the middle-class women in my work and family milieu behave.

I identify with you on one level: clearly we've both allowed our circles to become too small. I need to get out more, and it sounds like maybe you do, too. It's easy to forget that there are whole worlds of different types of people out there when we stop socializing/volunteering/going to classes or whatever.

I observe women who love punishing wait staff with poor tips for mistakes that originated in the kitchen. I have seen the adrenalized gleam and look of triumph on the face of a woman as she snaps her phone shut after berating an underling or service person.

I'm sick of hearing about 'retail therapy', hair and skin products I might want to try, and the celebration of clothes, jewelry, and hairstyles in the office. The culture of middle-class women I know make non-consumers feel shabby about their clothes, homes, yards, and kitchens. They are the ones who insist on the new, the fashionable and for the most part, mass-produced.

That metrosexuality based on hatching new insecurities in men or raising the bar on fashion sense (i.e., spending money and becoming more shallow) is somehow virtuous.

this is by no means the sole territory of women. Think bar-b-cues, trucks, golf clubs, tires, hockey leagues, gym memberships, hunting, lawn mowers, etc. But I must confess that I cannot stand being near to these types either, and I do find it particularly annoying when women go on and on about hair, nails, clothing, sales ... I think that's just a personal preference though - I'd rather hear about lawn mowers, etc, but it doesn't make it any less disgusting.

IOW, it sounds like it is consumer culture that is the culprit.

Personal office vendettas that simmer for years, smart but mousily-dressed or socially-challenged introverts forever passed over for promotion, even in the civil service.

the key here is Civil Service. Having worked in the civil service, I believe it is a repository for some of the worst Canada has to offer. The culture is stomach-turning on many, many levels. As you may know, I quit. I quit a full-time, indeterminate level civil service job. People lost their minds to hear of it (pension!!? benefits!!? Security!!?? money for nothing!??!) I can completely appreciate where you are coming from. But let me tell you - a whole other world exists out here.

And I fully realize that this doesn't compare with being terrorized or abused at the hands of the patriarchy, or the real pit-of-the-stomach fear of dark streets or men who say vile things.

one more thing you could consider is this: women in the civil service are new to power. Many abuse it. Women have been conditioned for so long to be powerless and they have been rewarded for so long for playing the boys' game that they don't know how else to behave when given authority. SOME women don't, anyway.

sexist prick dummy small-dicked ignorant asshole... or the opportunities so enthusiastically seized to wail like Charlie Parker when a man says something stupid here...

Norton, the guy was a sexist prick. He was. Haven't you just written three paragraphs explaining a dynamic that you have observed at play? Haven't you named it? the small dick thing was a joke - I don't see you jumping up and down in opposition to Morgan talking about ping-pong balls in vaginas. Is it really just because I used slang and he used the proper word?

And, to be fair, I have tried to engage some of the men on this forum in a serious manner, but largely they dodge my more pointed questions. They dodge and change the subject and it just gets to a point where I think to myself, "Fine. You wanna be juvenile? Let's go there."

That's my take on it, anyway.

[Canadian_watcher]

CW, from the little brush with your feminism in the "circumcision" thread, I have great doubts how different your way of "modding" a space would be. The picture you chose to place in response to my post which was in no way offensive, was very much male chauvinistic, picturing two men going "ooff", added to a lovely "fuck" in your closing statement. All this justified by "i am protecting women and children".

I have to say that recently this issue kind of stares me in the face, from many corners in my virtual life, and is also at the center of some public discussions on "the real motivation of middle class feminists". I find this kind of aggression not the least stifling, than "patriarchal hegemony", but a bit more confusing and sad, as I am also supposed to be thankful to the sado "Sista" for "protecting me".

I am grateful to all the crazed women that took the lead in the struggles of women to be free of subjugation, but on a personal day to day basis, I make it a rule not to take shit from anyone, least of all those who "protect me". It took me a few decades to shed off the false obligation to Israeli male "protectors" who raped me as a matter of entitlement (as a reward for their "protection"), I hope that releasing myself from "protection" of women, will not take such a long time.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Where are the mods. Seriously.

[barracuda]

[norton ash]

Where are the mods. Seriously.

Hava has a habit of taking things way too personally. Many of us have gotten blasted by Hava in this way.

The small-dick reference came from me trying to change the subject to sexism in Hollywood film by saying I wanted to move from furnace-man micro to cultural macro, and you took a cheap shot by suggesting we blokes should examine our civvies for the 'micro.' That was really not cool, mmkay? It's just ugly to mock a person's body, as you women know too well.

They dodge and change the subject and it just gets to a point where I think to myself, "Fine. You wanna be juvenile? Let's go there."

I'd say let's not, except for where it's really merited.

Nice talking!

[Canadian_watcher]

Where are the mods. Seriously.

Hava has a habit of taking things way too personally. Many of us have gotten blasted by Hava in this way.

The small-dick reference came from me trying to change the subject to sexism in Hollywood film by saying I wanted to move from furnace-man micro to cultural macro, and you took a cheap shot by suggesting we blokes should examine our civvies for the 'micro.' That was really not cool, mmkay? It's just ugly to mock a person's body, as you women know too well.

They dodge and change the subject and it just gets to a point where I think to myself, "Fine. You wanna be juvenile? Let's go there."

I'd say let's not, except for where it's really merited.

Nice talking!

I accept that you didn't like the small dick reference. I respect that it was a sexist thing for me to say. I will refrain from those types of jokes in the future.

Are you not up to discussing the rest of your post, with regards to the observations you've made about the actions of women in your milieu?

[Canadian_watcher]

I guess hava deleted the post she made, but I've captured it, above. If it is cool for people here to bring their disputes with me on this thread out of the thread and snipe and mock and instigate trouble, then so be it. If it is cool for people to bring their disputes with me in OTHER threads into this thread and vent their spleens at me using my feminism as a target, then so be it.

I want it noted.

I feel I must have crossed a line somewhere, and I don't see where. I don't see it, so I can't correct it. What it feels like to me is that I am being ganged up on. I have taken strong stances on things, fought back, and some people don't like that. They can't get past it. They drag it on and on and into the rest of the board.

My evidence for the fact that there is a toxic environment here is that other women will purposely NOT be involved in this thread because it frustrates and otherwise hurts them. That it is too difficult for women to take part in a conversation about misogyny speaks directly to the issue at hand and it is not being addressed.

I guess we will continue as a species to have 'feminist blogs' that MUST exclude men. We cannot - we CAN NOT - talk about this as a group. Sad. Really, really sad.

[norton ash]

Are you not up to discussing the rest of your post, with regards to the observations you've made about the actions of women in your milieu?

Ha, I'm in the work milieu and have been procrastinating all morning. Gotta be brief and dangerously generalize.

It goes back to Morgan's strong points that we should be fighting a class war, rather than bring diverted by any 'battle of the sexes' that has been ramped up by the oppressor. And that having achieved a level of power, women shouldn't be suckered into classist or status-conscious attitudes.

Boss here, minimizing... ha.

More later, gotta go.

[Canadian_watcher]

Are you not up to discussing the rest of your post, with regards to the observations you've made about the actions of women in your milieu?

Ha, I'm in the work milieu and have been procrastinating all morning. Gotta be brief and dangerously generalize.

It goes back to Morgan's strong points that we should be fighting a class war, rather than bring diverted by any 'battle of the sexes' that has been ramped up by the oppressor. And that having achieved a level of power, women shouldn't be suckered into classist or status-conscious attitudes.

Boss here, minimizing... ha.

More later, gotta go.

(whispering, so as not to alert the boss): kay.. I look forward to it!

[WakeUpAndLive]

I guess hava deleted the post she made, but I've captured it, above. If it is cool for people here to bring their disputes with me on this thread out of the thread and snipe and mock and instigate trouble, then so be it. If it is cool for people to bring their disputes with me in OTHER threads into this thread and vent their spleens at me using my feminism as a target, then so be it.

I want it noted.

I feel I must have crossed a line somewhere, and I don't see where. I don't see it, so I can't correct it. What it feels like to me is that I am being ganged up on. I have taken strong stances on things, fought back, and some people don't like that. They can't get past it. They drag it on and on and into the rest of the board.

My evidence for the fact that there is a toxic environment here is that other women will purposely NOT be involved in this thread because it frustrates and otherwise hurts them. That it is too difficult for women to take part in a conversation about misogyny speaks directly to the issue at hand and it is not being addressed.

I guess we will continue as a species to have 'feminist blogs' that MUST exclude men. We cannot - we CAN NOT - talk about this as a group. Sad. Really, really sad.

I still see her post there...

CW, I personally feel you have crossed the line by mixing other circumstances into misogyny and being male. Because we are specifically talking about your post in the other thread and because it provides a great example I will use that as my basis. As a refresher here is the quote:

Yes, it is an emotionally charged debate but I think it is long overdue. If this were a female issue we (society) would have talked about it at length already since we seem to be so comfortable publicly dissecting anything and everything to do with female biology. We also have no trouble codifying female biological functions into law (which of course is too intrusive for my liking)

You quite clearly are mixing the conditioning of political figures with male behavior (and while there are some overlaps it is not all encompassing), and then further mixing it all up by grouping ALL males into that same category. Furthermore, you then go on to infer that the world probably wouldn't be such a bad place if women ruled. Not only that, you then take a male issue and make it yours....something I remember you being strictly against when I said males should have input on misogyny.

Now that its been said, its up to you to listen

I think this forum is an excellent medium of discussion with brilliant minds and viewpoints from many angles. I agree the hava should not have brought another thread into this one, but you did the same by imparting your viewpoint into the other thread, specifically at a time when I feel it was placed there as a low blow. If you want my honest opinion you were undermining ALL OF MEN as a group by basically saying we don't know how to properly discuss issues at hand (and I will agree the "leaders" of this country can't for shit, but I feel this is more a product of our political system than sexes).

I want compromise and balance from both sides, do you not?

[norton ash]

It's easy to forget that there are whole worlds of different types of people out there when we stop socializing/volunteering/going to classes or whatever.

But that world is now one of professional volunteer-organizers, 'capacity builders', workshop-and seminar-organizers, background-checkers, slick fund-raisers... destroyers of the seat-of-the-pants spontaneity and funk that I remember way too fondly. The best intentions have just created another parasite class of bureaucrats and consultants... and way too many of them are women with BAs!

And trust me, coming from Northern Ontario, I am no fan of the redneck patriarchy. Looking at TV news coverage of a group of regional 'sportsmen' protesting environmental restrictions... ball caps, arms folded, glaring hatred ... I saw a group of men who were beaten by their dads and now reflect their anger in their embrace of 'traditional male values' and their love of 'big toys for big boys' and snapping up any piece of useless shit that has a combustion engine or will allow them to more effectively kill fish and animals, or dig up the wilderness to build poor, beaten-down Maggie 'her dream house.'

People just ain't no good. This thread is indeed an effort to make us better, and I'll stop twitting on examples of what I see as bullying... because that's really my own complex, innit.

[barracuda]

If it is cool for people here to bring their disputes with me on this thread out of the thread and snipe and mock and instigate trouble, then so be it. If it is cool for people to bring their disputes with me in OTHER threads into this thread and vent their spleens at me using my feminism as a target, then so be it.

Yes, it's okay for people to cross-pollinate threads in this way, as long as they remain on topic, which hava did. hava has her own opinion on the matter at hand, and it is different from yours - I didn't think she was mocking you, but putting forth her feelings on the subject.

You put this mod in a difficult position here, because we are trying to assure the women on the board of some sort of space and validation (however unsuccessfully), and hava's perspective (however unpopular) is also a woman's perspective.

hava, I would ask you to reign in the charged language here - framing feminists as "crazed women" and "sado sistas" doesn't help get your point across, and isn't in the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish with the new guidelines, honestly.

[Canadian_watcher]

This thread is indeed an effort to make us better, and I'll stop twitting on examples of what I see as bullying... because that's really my own complex, innit.

mine too. common ground again. It feels good.
Thanks Norton.