Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:33 pm

now we're talking.

A Middle East without borders?
The nation state is ripe for change and people power offers new opportunities for mapping the future of the region.
Mohammed Khan Last Modified: 05 Mar 2011 15:00 GMT

The modern geography of the Middle East was carved out by British and French colonialists whose sole interest was in sharing the spoils of war between themselves and in maintaining their supremacy over the region in the early part of the 20th century.

The contours of the region, with its immaculately straight lines (see maps of Algeria, Libya, Egypt and Sudan) are much the same today as when they were first drawn up, despite decades of cross-border encroachment and conflict.

Never has an imported concept been so jealously guarded by ruling families and political elites in the Middle East as that of the nation state, together with the holy grail of international relations theory, state sovereignty.

The artificialness of the borders in question is not in doubt. Take a look at any map of the Middle East prior to the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement between Britain and France (when the division of the region was finalised with no consideration for the thoughts of the people that lived in it) and you will be hard pressed to find many physical boundaries between, say, Syria to the north-east and Morocco to the west.

What you may find, however, are free-flowing train routes spanning the region. A relic of the old Hejaz Railway, which connected Damascus to Medina, still stands (dilapidated) in the centre of the Syrian capital. It once transported pilgrims to the Muslim holy city in modern-day Saudi Arabia without the need for cumbersome visas and frustrating bureaucrats. But that was obviously some time ago.

Trial and error

Over the course of recent history, Arab leaders have attempted to foster closer unity in the Arab world whether in the form of the 22-member Arab League - "to safeguard the independence and sovereignty [of Arab states]" - or the six-state Gulf Co-operation Council (GCC) - as a political, economic and security union in response to the Islamic revolution in Iran.

However, the sanctity of the state itself, and its borders, has been absolute within these blocs.

Possibly the greatest experiment in cross-border union, one which admittedly lasted barely three years, began in 1958, when under a wave of Nasserism sweeping the region, Egypt and Syria (and for a very short period, Iraq) established the United Arab Republic (UAR).

Gamal Abdel-Nasser's demagoguery and penchant for power, however, and the subsequent economic tumult felt in Syria, soon saw an end to that project in 1961.

Theoretically, Egypt and Syria became one, as part of the UAR. Under a single leadership (with devolved power), the UAR was supposed to foster a spirit of togetherness and spur other countries in the region to join up and expand the union.

That the project failed was in no way a reflection of the Egyptian and Syrian peoples' desire to forge a single alliance. Together with the then Yemen Arab Republic, the formation of a United Arab States was also mooted.

That was the last we heard of a pan-Arab national project.

Arguably, the 1990s and the 2000s were the decades of cross-border post-nationalism, especially with the rise of Islamic movements as major political actors whose ideology was premised on Islamic ideals that transcended national borders.

Analyse closely the manifestos of some of these movements, however, and also consider their specific origins, and it soon becomes clear that their political ambitions were, and are, ingrained firmly in the states in which they emerged.

As such, the Islamic Salvation Front was a dominant actor in Algeria and Algeria alone, while the Muslim Brotherhood's focus is on political reformation in Egypt. The Brotherhood's offshoots are similarly specifically state-centric.

These movements may well have ideological underpinnings that aim to replicate the glory days of the early Caliphates or the Ottoman Empire, but realism has dictated that they focus their energies within specific national confines. This is unlikely to change anytime soon.

All for one

Given this recent history, then, is the idea of a borderless Middle East still viable? It may well be when you consider that the globalised nature of the world, in its present form, has thrown up possibilities in the region that would have been inconceivable barely a few years back.

More precisely, the political convulsions that the region is undergoing right now have revealed glaringly the extent to which the problems and, potentially, the solutions to the Arab world's ills are remarkably similar. The political, economic and social suffocation that the people of Tunisia and Egypt have endured, before popular revolutions swept the countries' dictators from power, were near identical. The political, economic and social ailments suffered in Libya, Algeria, Bahrain, Yemen and now Oman are of the same vein.

Obviously, the causes of political unrest across these states are much more nuanced and cannot be reduced to generalisations. However, the future, unsurprisingly, is with the youth, the very demographic that is taking the lead in battling corruption and autocracy and one that is communicating, encouraging and helping others across borders in the spirit and language of togetherness.

Sure, this does not by itself denote that borders are now irrelevant. What it does suggest, however, is that political and economic issues and opportunities cannot be dealt with simply within the confines of borders any longer. The pent-up frustrations of the Arab youth, the economic inequalities, the demands for better representation extend across the entire region. A single voice is emerging in search of a single value: Freedom.

A single political authority is certainly not about to emerge out of the current political turmoil. But such an authority is not necessary.
An appropriate governance model for the Arab world to emulate would be that of the European Union (EU). The 27-nation political and economic union is borderless in the sense that its people can live, work and travel in member countries without much hindrance.

Sovereignty is still paramount in the EU but the federalisation of political and economic power is to the benefit of hundreds of millions of Europeans. Granted, the recent economic and financial crisis has called into question the viability of the EU, or more specifically, the single European currency, but the political will remains resolute in defence of the union.

We can probably find a plethora of reasons why a real political and economic union would not work in the Arab world. Take a look at the GCC, for example, a bloc of around 40 million people: After a decade of trying, it is still unable to form a currency union. How are we then to expect over 200 million people to agree on a federally-based political and economic union?

But, this would be to dismiss the thrust towards a common set of goals in the Arab world. Borders are increasingly irrelevant in this new equation. The means of mass communication, interdependency, pan-regional media, ease of access through improved infrastructure, the identification with a cause rather than a country, all suggest that the political awakening in the region may be conducive to a completely different set of political and economic realities.

The nation state as we know it, as it was imposed on the region by colonial powers, is ripe for change. The unleashing of people power has now opened up new possibilities for mapping the Arab world's future. While protesters across the region have been waving their respective national flags, the cause for which they are fighting and risking their lives extends well beyond their immediate borders.


http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/op ... 41689.html


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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby AlicetheKurious » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:30 am

vanlose kid wrote:now we're talking.

A Middle East without borders?


That is the dream that won't die. In fact, the term "The Arab Dream" that has been the subject of countless poems and songs is short-hand for precisely this.
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby Stephen Morgan » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:52 am

Well the local states were mostly dreamed up by the colonial powers, often to stop contiguous groups like the Kurds being under a unifying government (or, on a grander scale, arguably the Arabs as a whole), but few people alive today can remember when they weren't independent states, let alone when they weren't at least LoN Mandates. At the end of the day all nation states are largely arbitrary in their attributions of certain lands and people, but exclusion of others.

Also, a larger state is harder to hold to democratic account, and the state itself it essential to holding in check the actions of the powerful against those less powerful. Therefore I believe it would be unwise to fundamentally alter the boundaries of states precipitately.

On the other hand, seeing what Alice has just written, I suppose there's no real reason it couldn't happen. If the revolution is successful in a contiguous group of countries, at least. One of the things I always thought worked against the UAR was having Israel in the middle of it.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby a11235813 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:37 am

.
Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread or elsewhere before, but there was a (leaked?) presentation a few years ago by one of the Bush regime minions (he had a Slavic name -- Moravchik or something similar) about a master plan for the middle east. I remember mentions of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and so on ("<ME country1> is the pivot. <ME country2> is the prize")

Tried googling, but I think I was using the wrong search terms. Anybody remember this?
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:45 am

* Iraq is the tactical pivot
* Saudi Arabia the strategic pivot
* Egypt the prize

http://www.slate.com/id/2069119/

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby a11235813 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:57 am

Searcher08 wrote:* Iraq is the tactical pivot
* Saudi Arabia the strategic pivot
* Egypt the prize

http://www.slate.com/id/2069119/

Laurent Murawiec

Thanks, Searcher08.
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby AlicetheKurious » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:34 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:a larger state is harder to hold to democratic account, and the state itself it essential to holding in check the actions of the powerful against those less powerful. Therefore I believe it would be unwise to fundamentally alter the boundaries of states precipitately.

On the other hand, seeing what Alice has just written, I suppose there's no real reason it couldn't happen. If the revolution is successful in a contiguous group of countries, at least.


Well, the dream has evolved a lot since the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. The vision that most people seem to hold today is something very like the European Union rather than a single state. In fact, I don't think anybody wants to live in one big monolithic state.

Stephen Morgan wrote:One of the things I always thought worked against the UAR was having Israel in the middle of it.


Yes. That was one of the zionists' most successful selling points for implanting this sort of entity in that precise location from the perspective of their British and other imperialist patrons. Just from the geographic point of view, it's like a malignant clot totally sealing shut the land bridge between Arab countries in North Africa from those on the Asian continent.

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby Stephen Morgan » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:17 pm

a11235813 wrote:.
Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread or elsewhere before, but there was a (leaked?) presentation a few years ago by one of the Bush regime minions (he had a Slavic name -- Moravchik or something similar) about a master plan for the middle east. I remember mentions of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and so on ("<ME country1> is the pivot. <ME country2> is the prize")

Tried googling, but I think I was using the wrong search terms. Anybody remember this?


I remember seeing a map of it. I'll look on the interwebs. Is this it?:

Image
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:54 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:
vanlose kid wrote:now we're talking.

A Middle East without borders?


That is the dream that won't die. In fact, the term "The Arab Dream" that has been the subject of countless poems and songs is short-hand for precisely this.



:bigsmile

a friend of mine tells me this is about emir Abdel Khadir. i have no idea what they're singing but i've always liked it, so... hope that's reason enough.



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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby a11235813 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:43 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
a11235813 wrote:.
Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread or elsewhere before, but there was a (leaked?) presentation a few years ago by one of the Bush regime minions (he had a Slavic name -- Moravchik or something similar) about a master plan for the middle east. I remember mentions of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and so on ("<ME country1> is the pivot. <ME country2> is the prize")

Tried googling, but I think I was using the wrong search terms. Anybody remember this?


I remember seeing a map of it. I'll look on the interwebs. Is this it?:

Image


Thanks, turns out it was a RAND presentation to the Pentagon. Not directed at Egypt -- except as the "prize" -- but at Saudi Arabia.
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby jingofever » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:12 pm

Egypt unsure what to do about trove of security documents

The military-led interim authority has demanded that the classified files kept by Mubarak's dreaded internal spy agency be returned. Instead, they're being scattered throughout Egypt, with files turning up on Facebook and Twitter hourly, forcing the government to respond to them and raising fears among some activists that their value has been reduced for any future prosecutions for torture and kidnapping.

Why would their publication reduce that value?

Perhaps the most controversial document to surface was one that purports to lay out State Security's involvement in a church bombing on New Year's Day in Alexandria. The bombing killed 21 people and wounded 80, the worst violence against Egypt's Coptic Christian minority in more than a decade.

The legitimacy of the document hasn't been determined, but its distribution touched off protests Sunday in Cairo by hundreds of Coptic Christians.

Copts, especially those in Alexandria, had suspected state involvement in the bombing, noting that a stepped-up security force that was supposed to have protected the church had vanished before the bomb exploded.

According to the document, one of eight said to discuss attacks on churches, State Security used a jailed Islamist to help organize the plot, including details on the church's entrances and exits. The document was dated Dec. 2, 2010, and was addressed to the interior minister. It referred to the church bombing as "Mission No. 77."

Georgette Qilini, a Copt who served in the Egyptian parliament, said Mubarak's information minister ordered television stations to stop inviting her to speak after she suggested on the air that State Security was involved in the explosion.

"Maybe they were involved," Qilini said Monday. "We visited the church after the incident and we didn't believe the official story. There are still many, many questions, but I don't have any documents."
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:28 am

jingofever wrote:Egypt unsure what to do about trove of security documents

The military-led interim authority has demanded that the classified files kept by Mubarak's dreaded internal spy agency be returned. Instead, they're being scattered throughout Egypt, with files turning up on Facebook and Twitter hourly, forcing the government to respond to them and raising fears among some activists that their value has been reduced for any future prosecutions for torture and kidnapping.

Why would their publication reduce that value?


Chain of custody would be in dispute. Also, depending on the form of the trial, evidence jury members see before they join the jury is considered to have prejudiced them. At this point it's completely unclear what form such a court will take, since everything about the transition, how to deal with the regime and the future of the Egyptian system including judiciary is obviously in flux.

Given the fluid situation: Can't let the security forces redact their own stuff. They will always cover up and pretend it was to protect the innocent.

Notwithstanding Egyptian particulars that I cannot know, the common sense should be: The more that comes out, the less that can be covered up. The worse it is, the more people will demand prosecution, and the more some of those involved will look to testify against those who are even more exposed. The worst must also come out so that no revisionism takes hold. Otherwise you'll see counterrevolutionary elements claiming the regime wasn't so bad compared to current chaos, etc.

Perhaps the most controversial document to surface was one that purports to lay out State Security's involvement in a church bombing on New Year's Day in Alexandria. The bombing killed 21 people and wounded 80, the worst violence against Egypt's Coptic Christian minority in more than a decade.

The legitimacy of the document hasn't been determined, but its distribution touched off protests Sunday in Cairo by hundreds of Coptic Christians.

Copts, especially those in Alexandria, had suspected state involvement in the bombing, noting that a stepped-up security force that was supposed to have protected the church had vanished before the bomb exploded.

According to the document, one of eight said to discuss attacks on churches, State Security used a jailed Islamist to help organize the plot, including details on the church's entrances and exits. The document was dated Dec. 2, 2010, and was addressed to the interior minister. It referred to the church bombing as "Mission No. 77."

Georgette Qilini, a Copt who served in the Egyptian parliament, said Mubarak's information minister ordered television stations to stop inviting her to speak after she suggested on the air that State Security was involved in the explosion.

"Maybe they were involved," Qilini said Monday. "We visited the church after the incident and we didn't believe the official story. There are still many, many questions, but I don't have any documents."


If this is true, the only way it's going to come out is by leaking. Such things must come out. When they come out, it changes what follows.

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby jingofever » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:34 am

JackRiddler wrote:Given the fluid situation: Can't let the security forces redact their own stuff. They will always cover up and pretend it was to protect the innocent.

Can't let the military redact it either. I assume they have an incentive to keep the United States happy for those billions of dollars a year so maybe they'll be shredding any documents dealing with rendition (or other crimes). Debka claimed that Gates was sent to Egypt after the secret police buildings were raided. I don't trust Debka but now Gates is making a surprise trip to Afghanistan so maybe he was already out and about so why not stop by and check on the war?

Barack Obama Saturday, March 5, asked Defense Secretary Robert Gates to set out for Cairo without delay on an emergency mission as the unrest in Egypt veered out of control, debkafile's exclusive sources report from Washington.

US Defense Secretary Robert Gates arrived in Afghanistan for a surprise visit Monday at a critical time for war strategists in the White House.
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby 23 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:05 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 34235.html
Egypt's women plan mass march against military rulers

Egyptian activists have called for a "Million Women March" tomorrow after accusing the military government of forgetting about the role of women in the uprising and maintaining a "backward" political system dominated by men.

Organisers of the march say that political changes being introduced by Egypt's Higher Military Council, which assumed power after the toppling of Hosni Mubarak last month, will entrench patriarchal systems of power which have dominated the region for years. "They are forgetting about women's role in the revolution," said Dina Abou El-Soud, a 35-year-old hostel owner who is helping organise the march. "I think it is because of the culture and how it used to be here."

The demonstration, which like many of the Middle East's pro-democracy protests is being organised on Facebook, comes after an army-appointed commission announced proposed changes to Egypt's constitution.

The amendments, which Egyptians will be asked to approve in a referendum on 19 March, include imposing two-term limits on presidential incumbents and ditching the stifling restrictions on who can be nominated to lead the country.

The nationwide poll on the proposals will come before presidential and parliamentary elections which are scheduled to take place within the next six months.

Protests continued elsewhere. In Bahrain, thousands of Shia opposition supporters blocked the entrance to the Prime Minister's office but failed to disrupt a government meeting yesterday as the campaign for reform in the strategic Gulf nation entered its third week. Bahrain's Shia majority has long complained of discrimination and political persecution in the nation, which is ruled by a Sunni dynasty.
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby AlicetheKurious » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:09 am

23 wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/egypts-women-plan-mass-march-against-military-rulers-2234235.html
Egypt's women plan mass march against military rulers


A Canadian friend sent me something about this, so I'll post here the answer I sent her back:

This "Million Woman March" seems to be part of a pattern of clever but rather transparent moves to sabotage the revolution under the guise of lofty principles.

More details in this excellent article:

http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/75 ... revolution

I'd be amazed if they even managed to get 4000 demonstrators like in their last "million march" last Tuesday, I can't even remember what it was for, which fizzled badly.

On the other hand, for the serious demand to remove Ahmed Shafiq as prime minister, at least TWO million people came to Tahrir Square, me among them. As a result of this and other forms of popular pressure, he was forced to resign and was replaced with a man genuinely respected and admired by the people, the new Prime Minister Essam Sharaf.

As an indication of how important the previous Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq was to the old regime, his ouster was directly followed by the frantic shredding and burning of incriminating State Security forces files and documents, which led to the storming of State Security buildings, and as a result for the first time in memory Egyptians need no longer fear our own version of the Gestapo.

Re this "Million Woman March" I am a feminist and I'm offended by the use of women in this way, as a diversionary tactic and to create a fog of noise and confusion in order to discredit and drown out the legitimate demands of Egyptian workers -- men AND women -- for their rights, without which the revolution will have been meaningless.

People are not nearly as stupid as the old regime believes they are.


Re the State Security documents: There is strong evidence that the State Security shredded and otherwise destroyed almost all the incriminating documents in their possession and then deliberately planted fake documents among the wreckage to create paranoia and chaos. Most of what's been found appears to incriminate some of the leading opposition journalists and politicians. Some of it has been proven to be photo-shopped with fake signatures etc.

To name but one example, one of the most well-respected dissident journalists, editor-in-chief of the Al Masry Al Youm newspaper, Magdy Gallad, was described in one file as having received a villa worth around $5 million as a bribe to act as a mole within the opposition. Gallad has already made a complaint to the Prosecutor-General and publicly requested that anybody who has any information about any expensive villa owned by him, any member of his immediate family or any member of his extended family to come forward.

There are also files that contain private medical or other personal details about certain people, and though it may have no political relevance, some may be used to embarrass or blackmail individuals.

I personally do not believe that State Security was involved in the Two-Saints' Church bombing, unless there was a secret "sleeper" cell within the SS that worked for certain ahem! foreign intelligence agencies, that may have been involved in setting it up or other logistics. State Security literally kept detailed files about EVERYBODY. They tapped phones and bugged homes and followed people and knew almost everything there was to know about anybody from the president himself down to the lowest blip on the radar. In particular, they placed every foreign visitor or resident in Egypt under a microscope. Yet, so far as I know, not one "shred" of evidence has emerged about anything concerning any foreign intelligence or other activity in Egypt.

Unfortunately, some of the evil geniuses who worked for the Mubarak regime are still at large (including the most evil and genius of them all, Safwat el-Sharif) and keeping busy, busy, busy.
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