Do we need population reduction?

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Postby wintler2 » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:09 am

Dreams End wrote:Eros...there is simply no way to reduce the population a significant amount in a relevant amount of time without increasing the current death rate. I'm against that. Sorry.
Actually i think your 3bil by 2070 from cutting birthrate might suffice, if then continue decline to sustainable population prob somewhere between 100mil & 2bil.
Just because we can't now see exactly how to get there doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Dreams End wrote:Meanwhile, if a loved one has skin cancer and the doctor proposes to cure it by removing his kidneys, would you be uncaring to prevent the doctor's actions?

though to be fair to the doctor...at least he is proposing a specific plan. All I see here is "population reduction." No numbers, no mechanism, no plan.
What about comprehensive education, contraception, stop-at-one incentives and infant health? All been advocated, haven't seen you give them a moment of your bandwidth. I have no costed plan but they would be modest in comparison with additional infrastructure spending they would demand or current military spending.
You can't provide your plan for distribution via global socialism, does that mean it should be disregarded?

Dreams End wrote:How does that prevent anything you mentioned? Or is it possible, like so many, that you simply embrace the idea that we are doomed and breathlessly look for confirmation wherever you can find it?

Maybe you don't want their to be hope?
Quit pathologising, its just a sly modern variant on shooting the messenger, provoking heat not making light. Pot - kettle, i know, but it takes two (or more).
"Wintler2, you are a disgusting example of a human being, the worst kind in existence on God's Earth. This is not just my personal judgement.." BenD

Research question: are all god botherers authoritarians?
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Postby erosoplier » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:23 am

Chiggerbit, as you know, we're in the depths of winter where I am. And sure, we had quite a wintery feel to things last week. Heavy snow in the Snowies. Snow even where it doesn't normally snow.

But we're in a sunny patch this week. Sun and a light breeze today. 80 degrees it was, where I am.

:shock: [Not wanting to shock people, I should add, that's "only" 9 degrees F above the average daily max temp where I am].

I'm enjoying it - I think I may have sunburn from basking in the sun today - but as we keep saying, "if it's like this in winter, what's it gonna be like in summer?!"
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Postby erosoplier » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:27 am

Dreams End wrote:That leaves a rate of increase of -.1 percent. That gets us to 3 billion in 70 years.


Wouldn't it get us to 3 billion in 7 hundred years?
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Postby bean fidhleir » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:58 am

I think it can be shown that a simple reduction of the birthrate will do the job:

Here are my simplifying assumptions:
  • Everyone lives exactly 100 years because nobody dies of disease or accident. So anyone born in 1950 dies in 2049.
  • Each generation is 25 years
  • All breeding is done by its generation immediately
  • Each breeding group represents 25% of the total pop at the checkpoint (because everyone lives 100 years), and produces 1 child per person


Code: Select all
Date  World    Births    Deaths   New pop
1900  1.60G       
1925  2.25G
1950  2.50G
1975  4.00G
2000  6.00G   1.50G    1.60G    6.10G   
2025  6.10G   1.65G    2.25G    5.50G
2050  5.50G   1.25G    2.50G    4.50G
2075  4.50G   1.13G    4.00G    1.63G
2100  1.63G   0.50G    * all *     none


I'm not very good at numbers, so it won't surprise me if someone points out an error. The fact that the simplifying assumptions ignore the bulge due to young populations isn't really an error since it only changes the dates, not the basic premise.

(it would be nice to have tables for this sort of thing)
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Postby Dreams End » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:59 am

Wouldn't it get us to 3 billion in 7 hundred years?


Sure would....I had in mind the typical example of a ONE percent per year increase (or negative increase). but we are talking about .1%. Which as you point out takes a little bit longer.
Please don't trust my math...here's a page that explains it better than I can...and it's high school math...despite my own decimal issues.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultran ... ling_Times

And from that site:
Whatever the case, there are grounds for some optimism about future population growth.
The world value for r peaked around 1990 and has declined since. This is a reflection of the decline in total fertility rates (TFRs) in undeveloped countries, presumably as the various factors involved in the demographic transition take hold, e.g.,

* improved standard of living
* increased confidence that your children will survive to maturity
* improved status of women
* increased use of birth control measures

The projection of future TFRs in the graph above (from the Population Reference Bureau) predicts that the less developed countries of the world will reach replacement fertility around the year 2020. In fact, they will probably reach it sooner because by 2006 the world TFR has dropped to 2.7. Even so, will the world reach zero population growth (ZPG) then?

This graph (based on data from the UN Long-Range World Population Projections, 1991) gives 5 estimates of the growth of the world population from now until 2150, assuming that TFRs decline from the 1991 value of 3.4 to the values shown.

* A value of 2.06 will produce a stable population of about 11.5 billion.
* A value 5% below that (1.96) will cause the population to drop back to close to its present value (6.1 billion) while
* a value of only 5% above (2.17) would produce a population of over 20 billion and still rising.

A consensus?
The several agencies that try to predict future population seem to be moving closer to a consensus that:

* the world population will continue to grow until after the middle of this century
* reaching a peak of some 9 billion (up from today's 6.5 billion) and then
* perhaps declining in the waning years of this century.


And you'll see from there that there are a lot of other factors. Really what matters is the size of the population within their reproductive years...but the rule of 70 is an easy way to sketch out some basic predictions. If you aren't decimal challenged, that is.

As for birth control and education...I'm all for it, wintler. How far do you think you will reduce the population in this way? But I love this:
What about comprehensive education, contraception, stop-at-one incentives and infant health? All been advocated, haven't seen you give them a moment of your bandwidth. I have no costed plan but they would be modest in comparison with additional infrastructure spending they would demand or current military spending.


But that's the whole point, wintler. It is the countries in extreme poverty which have the highest birth rates. I have been suggesting that the way to deal with that is to address the poverty, not the genitalia. It is the hold over the world that the megacorporations and military industrial complex has which is the problem. In order to do what you suggest, you'll need to severely disrupt that control...they like dictators who drain local economies. They insist on the removal of social safety nets to allow for "structural re-adjustments" (i.e. any barrier to economic exploitation.) They like war.

Why do you think the U.S. hates Cuba so much? Because they show it is possible to resist this.

So ironically, even if you just want to address reproductive issues in poor countries, the changes you'd have to make would necessitate the kinds of economic changes that ultimately would lead to a decreased birth rate and (more importantly) higher quality of life...WHETHER OR NOT you specifically addressed reproductive issues.

Note again from the article above why the birth rates (or total fertility rates as the article puts it) are declining in some of the "undeveloped" world:

* improved standard of living
* increased confidence that your children will survive to maturity
* improved status of women
* increased use of birth control measures


Which suggests to me that improving the standard of living, the health care system and the status of women (they have to be in a situation where they are given the choice to use birth control measures) are the ways to go.

I would simply add to that that we must then also look at the economics of food production and reverse all of the policies that destroy local farming economies and all of the other things I mentioned in a previous post.

Can the earth support 50 billion? Well, who knows what we will be capable of in the future...but that could only happen if we lived in a world not run by the whims of the uber rich. But that's irrelevant anyway, as all trends suggest we will top out at 9 or 10 billion. ESPECIALLY if we continue to improve the quality of life in poor countries.

With a more just distribution of resources, we could easily feed everyone on the planet right now, for all the reasons I've outlined. In addition, if you address the real issues which lead to hunger in the world, you will also be reducing the population growth rate as well.
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Postby bean fidhleir » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:09 am

Dreams End wrote:But that's irrelevant anyway, as all trends suggest we will top out at 9 or 10 billion. ESPECIALLY if we continue to improve the quality of life in poor countries.

Doesn't your opinion that it's "irrelevant" assume we will magically solve the problems of pollution, depletion, and species extinction?
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Postby Dreams End » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:10 am

Dreams End
 

Postby bean fidhleir » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:12 am

Nice chart. What's its projected reduction based on? War? Famine? Plague? (edit:) Ah, I see: plague, famine, AND war.
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Postby Dreams End » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:26 am

The chart is based on demographic data. Pretty easy stuff to verify.

I am not saying that all other problems will be solved, like pollution. That's just silly. This thread is about the "need" for population reduction. Suggesting that population reduction is not a solution is not the same as suggesting all problems will magically disappear.

As for rabid nationalism...that perspective tends to believe in the overpopulation perspective...

In fact, you will very, very often find that the people pushing negative population growth are also very involved in the anti-immigration movements. The Pimentals, to give one example, are part of the Carrying Capacity Network, which makes it clear that immigration and overpopulation are really part of the same issue.

Which makes clear to me that it is not too many people that they are worried about...but too many of the WRONG people.
http://www.carryingcapacity.org/

Notice on the first page the breathless alert about the defeat of the Amnesty (for illegal aliens) bill.

CCN AND ITS ASAP COALITION ALLIES LED THE WAY TO DEFEAT THE AMNESTY/ GUEST WORKER BILL BEING RAMMED DOWN OUR THROATS ON A CLOTURE VOTE of 46-53.
AMERICANS WIN!!!!


(David and Marcia Pimental are two researchers pushing the "carrying capacity" theme...)

This site is pretty typical. Check it out and see if it doesn't sound like "rabid nationalists" to you.
Dreams End
 

Postby Dreams End » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:29 am

Here's another site...this one called "negative population growth" and is maintained by a group of that name.

http://www.npg.org/

What do you see all the stories are about? Providing condoms to teenagers? Not hardly.

Immigration. Immigration. Immigration.

And I should not have to point out that immigration has ZERO impact on world population growth...it only impacts the U.S. population growth...so what do you think their REAL agenda is?
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Postby erosoplier » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:31 am

Hey, how do i get an account wif 2 thingies?

OMG, I can't remember a a time when I was more fiddlier...
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Postby Dreams End » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:33 am

eros, are you drunk?
Dreams End
 

Postby bean fidhleir » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:38 am

It doesn't really matter whether people with poor motives also advocate for something sensible. Hitler, after all, mandated the Volkswagen and the excellent German highway system. That he was the one ordering them doesn't mean they were what he was!

It's a serious logical error to try to impeach an idea because some disliked person believes it.

And you'll notice that the article you quote does two things:
  • It conflates rate of increase with increase. Only the rate of population increase has been dropping, not the population. Continuing to run toward the edge of the cliff, only slower, is not the way to save your life.
  • It projects an eventual population reduction mostly based on the AIDS plague continuing to depopulate Africa. If that stops, up goes the rate of increase again, absent some other intervention.
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Postby Dreams End » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:47 am

It doesn't really matter whether people with poor motives also advocate for something sensible. Hitler, after all, mandated the Volkswagen and the excellent German highway system. That he was the one ordering them doesn't mean they were what he was!

It's a serious logical error to try to impeach an idea because some disliked person believes it.


You are joking right? I mean you just suggested the graphic I put up was no good because the U.S. was "rabidly nationalistic." I see you removed that comment though.

Meanwhile, my point was, you suggested that we not suggest data from some rabidly nationalistic source and I am pointing out that most of these npg groups are rabidly nationalistic...

Meanwhile, there are a set of assumptions being made to support the need for npg and I am arguing that the assumptions are political, not empirical, in nature.

It conflates rate of increase with increase.


??? It's labeled "world population growth rate" not "world population". The article is clear that the population is going to increase to about 9 billion in fifty years.
It projects an eventual population reduction mostly based on the AIDS plague continuing to depopulate Africa. If that stops, up goes the rate of increase again, absent some other intervention.


You are so right! Let's work together to stop research into curing AIDS!
Dreams End
 

Postby Dreams End » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:58 am

Leeeeeet's WIKI:


Zero Population Growth (ZPG) is a concept coined by American sociologist Kingsley Davis. It is a condition of demographic balance where population in a specified population neither grows nor declines.


Kingsley Davis (August 20, 1908- February 27, 1997) was an American sociologist and demographer. He contributed to studies of American and worldwide societies, and coined the terms "population explosion" and "zero population growth".

* served as president of the Population Association of America and the American Sociological Association
* represented the United States on the United Nations Population Commission
* member of the Advisory Council of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration and the Advisory Committee on Population for the U.S. Bureau of the Census
* member of the American Eugenics Society


American Eugenics Society? Gulp!

The American Eugenics Society (AES) was a society established in 1922 to promote eugenics in the United States.

It was the result of the Second International Conference on Eugenics (New York, 1921). The founders included Madison Grant, Harry H. Laughlin, Irving Fisher, Henry Fairfield Osborn, and Henry Crampton. The organization started by promoting racial betterment, eugenic health, and genetic education through public lectures, exhibits at county fairs ea., but under the direction of Frederick Osborn, started to place greater focus on issues of population control, genetics, and, later, medical genetics. In 1972 the AES was reorganized and renamed in "The Society for the Study of Social Biology"
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