Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby AlicetheKurious » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:42 am

JackRiddler: thank you for once again ignoring the post on page 7 of this thread, in which I address your claim that "Israel is a mere tool of American imperialism" and provide some reasons why it doesn't make sense, just as you ignored the Kissinger essay in which I demonstrated how your other claim, that Kissinger was not a zionist, falls to pieces when his career is placed in a more accurate and complete context.

No doubt you read both, but found it more useful to pretend you hadn't, you know, so that you can continue to sneer at my conclusions as though I'm barking them out without any proof and "so that each time you post you get to pretend there isn't a history and you're just an innocent in the woods".
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby chump » Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:48 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:That's pure nonsense. The only thing I "cherrypick" is the topics I choose to comment on, which happen to be topics where I can provide either a different perspective or additional information that may shed new light. Unlike you, I don't (and would never try to) stop anybody else from contributing their own perspective or information that they consider relevant to a deeper understanding. In the case of zionism, I perceive that an artificially narrow tunnel vision has been imposed on most analyses, especially on the so-called Left, which focuses on the zionist state itself as though it were an independent entity, which it is not and never has been, rather than on the elaborate transnational system that created and sustains it.

It is important to know the history and the current reality of zionist theft, ethnic cleansing and apartheid in Palestine, if only because that is where the mask and the gloves come off and zionism stands exposed, in theory and in practise. That's important, to understand what we're actually dealing with, rather than the false image propagated by its agents.

However, unless we uncover and understand the specific process by which this highly-dependent, highly artificial, intrinsically unsustainable, tiny colonial state has become a super-militarized regional and even global power immune to international law, capable of intimidating and imposing its will on nations that dwarf it in terms of population, resources, legitimacy and development, nothing can ever change and it can continue to rampage and pillage with impunity. The zionists know this very well, and that is the basis for the zionist "Left" distinction between "permissible criticism of Israeli policies" and the red lines beyond which the alarms shriek and the dogs are unleashed against the messenger.

As this thread demonstrates, it's not racism or "hate" against Jewish people that provokes the hysteria, it's information, especially credible, well-documented and detailed information about the specific components of the network outside its borders that created this colonial project, recruited colonists to populate and kill for it, channeled arms and money to it, that silences and punishes dissidents and indoctrinates and embeds succeeding generations of agents trained to subvert their own nations' interests to serve the hegemonic ambitions of this foreign state. Any narrative, no matter how coherent and factually-based, that "connects the dots", that places the discrete bits of information in context so that they can be seen as what they are -- very well integrated parts of a whole -- raises the level of hysteria to full-blown panic.

The reason why becomes evident when we note that one key "talking point" shared by a very diverse range of individuals (who also happen to share a pathological delusion that "anti-semitism" is a key motivator of human and even state behaviours) is that the succession of imperial powers that have served the evolution of this tiny colonial project into a global player in its own right, have done so not because of the well-documented history of infiltration, espionage, blackmail, bribery, electoral or media pressures or other tactics used against targeted officials by a wealthy, tightly-knit and many-faceted network of zionist agents, but that on the contrary, because it served their own strategic imperial purposes. Baseless accusations of 'anti-semitism' and equally baseless assumptions that zionism is a mere tool of vaguely-defined Western "elites" are both based on irrational premises that don't bear thoughtful scrutiny, but they don't need to, as they rely on triggering conditioned emotional responses to elicit the desired reaction.

For example, that talking point: Israel is a "cat's-paw", it's a "strategic asset" that is subservient to the imperial ambitions of Western "elites", rather than the other way around. This raises a couple of questions:

1) If the zionists are such subservient, useful tools, what explains the fact that each of the zionists' succeeding patrons (the British, the Russians, the French and the Americans), having served their purpose at each crucial milestone in Israel's spectacular evolution over the past 60 years, appear to have lost far more than what, if anything, they gained from the relationship? In contrast, each time the zionists discarded one imperial patron and replaced it with fresh one, they emerged stronger, enriched with greater resources to impose their will and advance their ambitious plan.

2) As I live in Egypt, which actually is a "cat's-paw" and "strategic asset" for American imperial interests, I have a good basis for comparison with the relationship between America and Israel, which couldn't be more different. For example, America has used its military and economic "aid" to maintain and manipulate a deeply corrupted dictatorship which is imposed on the Egyptian people by force of arms and the draconian laws of a so-called 'State of Emergency' that have been in place for 29 consecutive years. Since the death of Gamal Abdelnasser, and his replacement by a puppet president on the payroll of the CIA, the IMF, World Bank and USAID have systematically decimated Egypt's industrial and agricultural bases, destroyed Egypt's public education system which was by far the best in the region, dismantled public health care and other social services, and led Egypt to sell our limited strategic gas reserves to Israel for a fraction of their price on the open market, among other catastrophic 'deals'. Egypt's debt has spiraled out of control, even as most of the population sinks deeper and deeper into poverty and foreign "investors" siphon billions of dollars abroad. Although Egypt is a major buyer of American weapons, in 30 years these have only been used by the police or military to crack down on Egyptian citizens, or to participate in the bombing of Iraq, both of which serve the interests of Egypt's enemies, rather than any interests of Egypt. When our 81-year old president finally kicks the bucket, no doubt his successor will have been pre-selected on the basis of his compliance with Israeli wishes, just as he was. An overview of America's and other imperial "strategic assets" and "cat's-paws" will quickly and conclusively show that this pattern is far from unique but is in fact the norm.

That's why I find it bitterly funny when zionist-lites insist that Israel is a "strategic asset" for America's imperial interests. It doesn't look like any client state I've ever seen, with its leaders' propensity to loudly boast about their ability to impose their will on their supposed boss, a boast that is far from empty, as we have repeatedly seen; with the carte-blanche to spy and infiltrate its agents into the highest levels of the Pentagon, to blackmail and threaten and intimidate even US presidents, to monitor all communications in the United States and to manipulate elections in the US, to elect leaders that openly defy America's orders, with American money used to build subsidized housing and subsidized health care and subsidized public education, American technology stolen to build up a high-tech industrial base and American weapons used to steal land and property and water, and to kill and dispossess the rightful owners in order to expand the lebensraum of the Chosen People, even as American citizens are bled dry by the same government that is so lavish in its gifts to the so-called "cat's-paw". The evidence shows that it is America, not Israel, that is acting as the "cat's-paw" and puppet regime in this bizarre "special" relationship.

As I said in the OP:

AIPAC is far more than a "lobbying group" -- in tandem with other Mossad fronts, it's also a highly subversive agency for the recruitment of 'moles' and other 'assets' whom, through campaign financing and media manipulation, they insert deep into America's inner circles of power, from where they ensure that, behind the illusion of democracy, the illusion of diversity and the illusion of freedom, the United States is ruled by individuals pre-screened by the agents of a foreign state to ensure that the United States continues to do only what the zionists allow it to do.




Well said Alice. FWIW This is not "hate rhetoric". It's true! At times, you seem angry, a bit of a smarty pants, but you're right! I too am offended by the zionists deceptive, unscrupulous, selfish and presumptive behavior. We should all be angry at the two-faced power brokers who are getting rich dissin' the rest of us. It is not just the zionists doing it. But they have been around so long, and accumulated so much. It reminds me of something Jeff said, in one of his posts, or in his book, referring to someone, something to the effect that they have ten thousand years experience on the rest of us, and have mastered the game so well...

Aipac has taken this distorted lobbying effort to a new level of sophistication. They are such brazen masters that it doesn't matter if their long used methods of influencing, or outright brainwashing our "leaders" and controlling us are exposed. They're bragging! Apparently, most people are still too naive or stupid to figure it out. Let's face it, by hook or by crook, the unscrupulous money managers, with their ill gotten booty, have long been able to buy "everything from culture to land to history to money to technology."

Follow the money. Money buys a lot of public relations.
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:10 pm

I can't find anywhere I said this, although you put it in quotes:

AlicetheKurious wrote:"Israel is a mere tool of American imperialism"


and I certainly don't believe it. If I ever put it like that, I was mistaken, or misinterpreted. It's your strawman.

Zionism is an independent movement that arose out of the adoption by European Jews of 19th-century ideas of European imperialism and settler colonialism. The UK and then the US allied with the Zionist project early and today support the resulting nation in the same committed way they once supported apartheid South Africa. The relationship is stronger than the usual US-UK support of brutal regimes for perceived strategic reasons, in part because Israel has long been viewed by many religiously, in the spirit of the Crusades as a reclamation of the "Holy Land" from Islam, and in part because of the supremacist attitude that perceives Israel as Western and white in a region full of browns and Muslims.

Israel is also supported by the US-UK governments for strategic reasons, misguided or not, as a bludgeon against Arab unity and Arab nationalism, and regardless of whether this is in the "American" or "British" "interest." It's not in the peoples' interests, but the policymakers in both of Israel's sponsor states have never given regard to their peoples' interests when they didn't have to. The US-UK power elites make their schemes and stick to them.

The pro-Israeli lobby, which is rooted in the support of a large part of the prosperous Jewish community in the United States, has a pervasive influence, stronger than most lobbies but comparable to many of them. They play the same game as the anti-Castro Cubans - to take another example of successful ethnically-rooted lobbying on behalf of a foreign policy that has also engaged in all manner of dirty tricks, spying, subversion, and demonization propaganda - but so far with greater success than any other ethnically based lobby. Of course, the anti-Castro Cubans wouldn't have had their way as completely if their will didn't coincide so well with the anti-Communist Cold War crusade, and I think it is also true that the pro-Israeli lobby has been in concord with the consensus of US power elite opinion, for the reasons mentioned above.

Thanks to campaign money and very successful PR, including subversive tools and utterly repulsive propaganda like in the video you posted, they have a stronger hold over Congress than they do over the Pentagon and MIC. However their influence with US public and elite opinion is on the decline, as it is throughout the world, and Israel's legitimacy is eroding further with each atrocity it commits in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon, which is probably why they've turned even nastier of late.

The pro-Israeli lobby usually get their way, and Israel could not have prevailed this long without billions in US support, which should be stopped immediately as the only way to begin effecting a peaceful, one-state solution for historic Palestine. They are a key element in the broader "PNAC" coalition alongside the Iran-Contra veterans and oil and spook and national security fetish operators who shaped the Bush regime and agenda, which has become the new normal under Obama.

But they don't always get their way, as evidenced by huge arms sales to Saudi Arabia since the 1980s despite AIPAC pressure, and by the fact that the US out of pragmatism has tacitly accepted Iran (and not Israel) as the big winner of the 2003 US-UK invasion of Iraq. Right this moment, Iran is acting as the key broker in putting together an Iraqi governing coalition, not the US and certainly not Israel. (I do wonder if you'll find a way to spin the results into a "Zionist" plot regardless.) Since the anti-neocon turn at the Pentagon in 2007, the US has blocked the Israeli push for an attack on Iran, and they will continue do so despite whatever rhetoric or apocalypse PR is floated in the media.

Beyond that, where we differ is that you paint "Zionists" as the originators and masterminds of nearly all US imperial policy. You've portrayed "Zionists" as the killers of JFK and the architects of the Vietnam war, distorting my country's history and directing us at the wrong "bad guys." You twist the reality to make the invasion of Iraq, a product of 30 years continual preparation to invade the Middle East because of geostrategic ideas and oil security dating back to 1973, as something thought up and executed entirely by the "Zionists," supposedly against the will and the "interests" of the other US elites, and with no other reason for the invasion. And you've made use of classic "protocols" tropes, which I have cited.

In this behavior I see two possibilities. It could be overkill by you as an Egyptian on behalf of a cause you hold above all others, against an evil you consider to be the worst in the world and not comparable to any other, no matter what crimes are committed elsewhere by other regimes, so that you feel a free pass to blame "Zionists" for anything you please, just as the AIPAC propaganda makes "terrorists" of all Arabs. Or else, in the Sortfmonrt Lite spirit, you're using criticism of Israel as the trojan horse for global Jewish conspiracy theory. Either way, it doesn't matter to me. I've defined my distance from you and that's that.

Oh, and:

An overview of America's and other imperial "strategic assets" and "cat's-paws" will quickly and conclusively show that this pattern is far from unique but is in fact the norm.


Thanks for arguing on my behalf. The destruction of Egyptian society through alliance and "aid" that you detail may be with "Zionist" support, but is indeed also the norm around the world. What you describe is the neoliberal assault on public institutions and redistribution of wealth upwards and offshore also characteristic of US (and UK, and EU) state policy and corporate action in Mexico, Haiti, Chile, Yugoslavia, Iraq and anywhere else around the world where they've been able to impose the program of weakening or destroying nations and making them subservient to international capital flows. Or would you like to argue that this global "norm" of US policy is always a function of "Zionist" control over the US?
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:35 pm

chump wrote:FWIW This is not "hate rhetoric"


Most of what Alice posts isn't, except insofar as lining up the facts always to point at the same villain might qualify. But she doesn't seem to mind including some explicit hate rhetoric as spice.
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby AlicetheKurious » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:58 pm

chump wrote:But they have been around so long, and accumulated so much. It reminds me of something Jeff said, in one of his posts, or in his book, referring to someone, something to the effect that they have ten thousand years experience on the rest of us, and have mastered the game so well...


Ten thousand years is a hell of a long time: the Mesolithic Age, I believe, thousands of years before the Iron Age. Maybe, if we're talking about alien lizards and such. I wouldn't know anything about that. If the subject is zionism, its roots are firmly in the mid-19th century, when the earliest Jewish colonists from eastern Europe were first recruited, financed and provided with paramilitary and agricultural training in Palestine by the agents of Edmond, Lord Rothschild. Later, it was his son Walter Rothschild who strongly campaigned for and obtained the infamous Balfour Declaration from Britain's Foreign Secretary in 1917, using as a carrot the promise that America would enter WWI on Britain's side and as a stick the thinly-veiled threat that if the British did not support the zionist project, then the Germans would, with the suggestion that they would also reap the rewards of such support.

That's been pretty much the pattern ever since: a carrot and a stick, in some cases illusory, in others all too real, played against targeted individuals and governments. Long before there was a zionist state, long before the rise of the Nazis, long before there was any support for the idea of Jewish emigration to Palestine except by a tiny, tiny minority, many of whom felt they were making a terrible sacrifice by going, for some reason a small number of exceedingly wealthy zionists were prepared to do anything necessary to establish their Jewish colony. That may be a clue that the zionist state was never the means to an end, i.e. security for Jewish people, but the end itself, and it was the Jewish people who represented the tools to be exploited in order to further that end. That pattern has also remained constant.

NB: I was about to press "submit" when I saw JackRiddler's post. I'll respond to it later.
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby Simulist » Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:16 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
chump wrote:FWIW This is not "hate rhetoric"


Most of what Alice posts isn't, except insofar as lining up the facts always to point at the same villain might qualify. But she doesn't seem to mind including some explicit hate rhetoric as spice.

The tone of Alice's posts is not that of "hate rhetoric."

If I were inclined to characterize her remarks in general, I would liken them to those of a good prosecuting attorney.
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby StarmanSkye » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:26 pm

^^^
Yeah, I'd go along with that.
Good take!
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby surfaceskimmer » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:18 pm

AIPAC: We'll take over the UC Berkeley student government
By Cecilie Surasky

07 Apr 2010

On March 18, UC Berkeley’s student senate voted 16 to 4 in favor of divesting from companies that profit from the Israeli occupation. A week later, in a move oddly predicted by AIPAC’s Jonathan Kessler at AIPAC’s policy conference, the vote was vetoed by the student senate president. (Students hope the senate will overturn the veto next Wednesday.) When asked about fighting the Berkeley pro-divest initiative, Kessler said, "we’re going to make sure that pro-Israel students take over the student government and reverse the vote... This is how AIPAC operates in our nation’s capital. This is how AIPAC must operate on our nation’s campuses."

http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2010/04/07/a ... overnment/
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby 17breezes » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:40 pm

"FWIW This is not "hate rhetoric". It's true!"

Of course it's hate rhetoric parroting the classic antisemitic "Jews control the world," bullshit. It's also wacky. If Israel had that much power, there never would have been any peace overtures. IMO anyone who believes that shit is insane.
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby 82_28 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:44 pm

17breezes wrote:"FWIW This is not "hate rhetoric". It's true!"

Of course it's hate rhetoric parroting the classic antisemitic "Jews control the world," bullshit. It's also wacky. If Israel had that much power, there never would have been any peace overtures. IMO anyone who believes that shit is insane.


Sometimes they say, the world can be an insane place.
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby 82_28 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:52 pm

There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:23 am

17breezes wrote:"FWIW This is not "hate rhetoric". It's true!"

Of course it's hate rhetoric parroting the classic antisemitic "Jews control the world," bullshit. It's also wacky. If Israel had that much power, there never would have been any peace overtures. IMO anyone who believes that shit is insane.


What are you talking about? There have not been any serious peace overtures from Israel in more than 30 years. There have been a long series of wars and strikes against Lebanon, as well as atrocities in the territories, planned and executed by Israel. Even the routine policy - seizing land, destroying houses and olive groves, building settlements on all the best land and in the middle of Hebron, chopping the territories into bantustans - is a form of ethnic displacement. Or apartheid, as the new (and very accurate) common term goes.

And it's 33 years only if we count the Camp David Accords as an arrangement wherein Israel gave up anything significant in exchange for having Egypt refashioned as a US client state.

Also, your statement is illogical. (Meaning, refusing peace would not necessarily be a sign of strength, it can merely be recklessness or something else.) Israel has had "that much power" - in the region. Thanks in large part to US military backing.

Finally, a great deal of what Alice says is fine. You seem to want to characterize all of it as "hate rhetoric." That's not the case, afaic. (Not that I tolerate even just a little.)
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To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby Alaya » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:34 am

17breezes wrote:"FWIW This is not "hate rhetoric". It's true!"

Of course it's hate rhetoric parroting the classic antisemitic "Jews control the world," bullshit. It's also wacky. If Israel had that much power, there never would have been any peace overtures. IMO anyone who believes that shit is insane.



Maybe in this case 'the hate' is in the eyes of the reader.
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby Nordic » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:44 am

I noticed a piece tonight written by a fellow who I greatly admire. He and I were banned at approximately the same time from Dailykos. We then went to the site where this piece is posted. I later left because they will occasionally, out of the blue, censor you, just wipe out what you wrote for the sheer rollicking hell of it. He still posts there. At docudharma sometimes people thought we were the same person. He's a better blogger than I am, I think, and a few steps ahead of me on almost everything. He's an "internet friend". We e-mail and stuff.

I wanted to share it in this thread, since it's entirely appropriate.

http://www.docudharma.com/diary/20450/w ... ike-israel



Here's just a little sample, I'm not gonna quote any more of it because it's full of hyperlinks and whatnot:

I'm sure everyone is familiar with the AIPAC spy scandal in which Larry Franklin, working under neocon Douglas Feith at the Pentagon's now infamous Office of Special Plans, was caught passing classified documents to two top AIPAC officials, policy director Steve Rosen and senior Iran analyst Keith Weissman. These two men were scheduled to finally stand trial (they were indicted in 2005) on April 21, 2009, but Obama's Justice Dept. dismissed the charges.. Franklin had already pled guilty and was sentenced to 12 years in a federal penitentiary, but the judge, based on prosecutors dropping the charges against Rosen and Weissman, reduced his sentence to 10 months.

This was not the first time Israeli agents have been caught spying on their good friends the Americans. One you probably haven't heard about, because the story broke on the day of the 2008 Pennsylvania primary, is the case of Ben-ami Kadish, an 84 year old retired army engineer who was part of the same spy ring as Jonathan Pollard, the American naval intelligence analyst who was convicted in 1987 for passing classified intelligence to Israel. In fact, the number of instances of Israeli espionage against the US are far too many to list here. It's been going on since Israel's birth. And it hasn't stopped.


Check it out, it's a good one.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Catch 'em Young: AIPAC Subversion of the USG

Postby 82_28 » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:01 am

The greatest effort at peace within Israel was taken out by 4breezes. 13 have come since.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat ... zhak_Rabin
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