New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:11 am

a problem i have with new atheists: to them if a "religionist" (they love that term) commits a crime its because of his religion/religion is the cause.
but if an atheist exterminates millions in the most rational and effective way possible it's because he had a tough childhood and would have profited from psychoanalysis.

speaking of which, when an atheist goes round saying "logic! logic! fact! sciiiientific method! sciiientific method!" and prides himself on being a disciple of Freud, you know logic, fact, and scientific pethod mean nothing to him.

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:14 am

is there an atheist who has read Dostoevsky?

Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett, et al., are old news.

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby Hammer of Los » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:51 am

...

You guys are funny.

The ancient ones are having a right old laugh.

...
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:57 am

JackRiddler wrote:Please use the quote function to distinguish my words (and those of others) from yours. Thank you.


See? Like that. Please fix.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby compared2what? » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:17 am

vanlose kid wrote:is there an atheist who has read Dostoevsky?


I almost said yes. But then I remembered that I'm not an atheist. I just love Dostoevsky.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby compared2what? » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:43 am

vanlose kid wrote:
I wrote: don't have one. I have a problem with the claim that atheism was identifiably an influence on Nazism. Because it's false.

I didn't see Jack conclusively say that. I saw him say "pro-Christian." And that struck me as an acceptably scrupulous way of avoiding saying they were Christian in context, although I wouldn't want to see anybody making a habit out of it when questions of religion weren't in play, They were fascists, Religiosity was definitely a part of their program Whether or not religion was is more debatable. But i'd probably say it was, personally.

And that being so, I guess I'd have to find some way of saying that the religion that happened to be lying around was Christianity without saying that Nazism was a Christian movement. Because it wasn't. And also without omitting to say that, in fact, the Nazis persecuted some Christians and suppressed some forms of Christianity. Because that's what happened.

I don't see how that's a disservice to theists. But if it is, I'm sure you'll let me know.


*****

where did i say it was a disservice to theists?
Nowhere. But since that's the same place I suggested that you said it, I guess you're just going to have to practice tolerating agreement.

as for the part about nazis not being atheist or in any way influenced by atheists (Nietzsche, the superman)--woohoo! if you say so ma'am. you jus' mus' be rayt.

as for this: "that atheism was identifiably an influence on Nazism is false" i'm sure that you, like Jack, woould love to dictate what the truth is. i'll say, however, your claim that it is false is false. and that just like Jack you know it is.


No. I really don't. Nazism was not an atheist movement. And the main way you can tell that is that non-belief in god wasn't an ideological or practical element of it.

I'm pretty sure that it wasn't about freedom of religion, either.

And I'm already aware that you never said anything about that. Just in case you're wondering. It's strictly my own contribution to the discourse.

.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby divideandconquer » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:58 am

82_28 wrote:There is such a thing called "Christian atheism" of which I figure I probably count as one.

Jesus, although not seen as divine, is still a central feature of Christian atheism. Most Christian atheists think of Jesus as a wise and good man, accepting his moral teachings but rejecting the idea of his divinity. Hamilton said that to the Christian atheist, Jesus is not really the foundation of faith; instead he is a "place to be, a standpoint".[4] Christian atheists look to Jesus as an example of what a Christian should be, but they do not see him as a god.

Hamilton wrote that following Jesus means being "alongside the neighbor, being for him",[4] and that to follow Jesus means to be human, to help other humans, and to further mankind.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism


Jesus is either a "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord" ...or "Mad, Bad, or God"
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God." -- C.S. Lewis
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby Hammer of Los » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:01 am

...

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.


The deadline surely doth approach,
God's poacher now doth softly poach.


Actually, I'm an omelette!

Well, either that or the horned one.

He does have the best tunes, after all.

...
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:26 am

VK, I don't know what's strangest:

- Your crude generalizations of atheists as a monolithic block of arrogant, inhuman monsters.

- The magical non-history required to believe that the writings of Nietszche, even as edited by his twisted sister, were a significant causal influence on the rise of the National Socialists, or that this would make them an atheist movement.

- Or the idea that no atheists would have ever read Dostoevsky.

I wonder what proportion of Christians have read the Bible.

And can you please edit your posts from the last page to distinguish quoted matter from your own words? I'd think that was a simple matter.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I am by virtue of its might divine,
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby compared2what? » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:34 am

Or the idea that anyone who doesn't think Hitler was an atheist must be one.

I mean, I don't think he was from outer space either.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby divideandconquer » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:11 am

Hitler, Nazis, the religion of the blood and Nietzsche's overman.

The Third Reich was an occult-based religious movement to usher in the New Age. He was a great admirer of Helena Blavatsky and other occultists. Hitler hated Christianity and Catholics BUT he admired the discipline, doctrine, and pageantry of the Roman Catholic Chruch (Read Ominous Parallels by Leonard Peikoff ) And he obviously subscribed to Nietzsche "overman"

Here's a brief history...

In 1935, Himmler created the Lebensborn. Between 1935 and 1945, 11,000 Lebensborn babies were born. Men from the right genetic stock (Aryan) were encouraged to breed as many babies as possible regardless of their marital status. According to Himmler, the SS had a sacred duty to their nation and furor to beget healthy Aryan babies. He instituted the practice that SS men would be able to take on more than one wife. According to Lebensborn doctrine, the illigitmate child is no disgrace as long as the mother was genetically fit Women were thought to have one function, to breed the children whose offspring would one day become gods. Aryan babies from conquered nations were kidnapped and placed in Lebensborn homes. It is estimated that 200,000 Polish babies were kidnapped and placed in Lebensborn homes where they received training in every aspect of Nazi culture and mythology.

Rudolph Hess was a member of the Thule society which actively sought a Germanic messiah. Members practiced astrology, sun worship, and other occult sciences, dedicated to the revival of the master Aryan race. The Thule society, with very elite membership, financed Hitler’s German Worker’s Party. In 1920, Hitler changed the name of the German Worker’s Party to the German National Socialist Worker’s Party (NSDAP) which soon became the Nazi party.

The quest to prove the superiority of the Aryan race soon moved into the criminal. They believed that once they proved that their ancestors were Aryan gods it would be a simple step to recreate this race of Aryan god-men through selective breeding. They had to be at least 5’ 9” of pure German ancestry without inter breeding back to 1750, encouraged to father as many children as possible regardless of marital status

Alfred Roseberg, racist philosopher and occultist would eventually become Hitler’s voice in spiritual matters. In The Myth of the 20th Century Rosenberg reinvented Germanic history and laid out the foundation of the new Nazi creed: the religion of the blood. He saw, in a religious sense, blood as the determining factor. The church had to be of the blood rather than of faith, or belief… Blood, racial stock, identity became the keynotes of this new ideology

The blood tied together the Nordic races. Rosenberg preached that the blood of the people carried the soul of the race. Blood is a sacred substance that is a vehicle that carries more than the physical life of each person, but the spiritual life. The blood of the people carried the spirit of the race. So Nordic myth replaced the Christian Bible as the foundation of the new Nazi religion.

In a pageant orchestrated by Rosenberg and captured on film, the Nazis celebrated their newly conceived version of Aryan culture Today a new mythos is dawning. The mythos of the blood. The belief that the godly essence is to be defended through the blood. Hitler took Rosenberg’s words further when he wrote, the old beliefs will be brought back to honor again. The whole secret nature, of the divine, of the demonic. We will wash off the Christian veneer and being out a religion peculiar to our race. Hitler chose the Swastikas as the emblem of the Nazi race.

The Swastika was non-Christian in an overt sense. It represented the hammer of Thor, the god of thunder. Amongst the Norsemen, it was represented the arctic sun, worshipped throughout pagan law. It was a bearer of good life and good fortune. The Swastikas a sign of good luck in China and to this day it remains an emblem of the Hindu and Buddhist faiths
For Hitler, it had a different meaning. He wrote: In the swastika, we see the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man.

The gnostic themes of the Grail quest and the cosmic struggle between Light and Darkness

Hitler became an obsessive devotee of the composer, Richard Wagner. A common theme in German mythology are the epic sagas of Teutonic traditions and Norse mythology, of warring forces of darkness and light...these were a common theme in German culture. Wagner gave these stories their most triumphant voice. Hitler went to his first opera at 12-years old...Richard Wagner’s Parsifal, which glorifies the power of pure blood. This became a source of great inspiration to Hitler. It is an epic retelling of quest for the Holy Grail. According to legend the grail was a mystical vessel that carried sacred blood, promising unlimited powers to anyone who drank from it. It was believed the grail could only be found by the purest knights (In 1938 HItler had a painting commissioned of him as a knight).. Wagner’s genius for pageantry became Hitler’s inspiration for Hitler’s grandiose rallies that Hitler would soon stage. Rallies where Wagner’s music was often played.

Hitler’s bid for power began November 9, 1923 with an attempt of an overthrow of the Bavarian government. Leading a group he called storm troopers, he launched an attack on a beer hall where government leaders were meeting. With Hess and Rosenberg at his side, Hitler brashly announced the formation of a new government, then took to the streets marching 3,000 storm troopers through Munich. They were confronted by police. Shots were fired and Hitler lost 16 of his men. It was a failed coup. But in the 10 years before Hitler seized power, the 16 men would become martyrs.

Thus the ritual whereby every new Nazi flag and banner was not empowered until Hitler had touched the flag against the “blood flag”. Nazi blood attained a sacred symbolic power, ritualized and sanctified in the ceremony known as “The Right of the Blood Flag”. The “magical power” of the blood of the dead Nazis was transmitted to each Nazi flag and consecrated thereby. The blood flag was the crucifix of Hitler’s religion. It would come to symbolize his new reign.

The party is Hitler. Hitler is Germany and Germany is Hitler.

In 1933, Hitler succeeded in becoming the Furor. A title that would come to resonate with religious connotations of the “anointed one”, the “messiah”. With Hitler’s elevation to leader, the blood religion became the undisputed religion of the party, complete with holy days and martyrs.

Goebbels orchestrated a ritual whereby the aforementioned 16 Nazi heroes were honored as martyrs of the Reich who died, were resurrected and then achieved eternal life. An obvious copying of Christian ritual. So with the rituals of his new religion in place, Hitler unleashed the next steps of his plan.

It was a national socialism that determine your entire lifestyle, your thoughts….everything. The central piece is that you are willing to sacrifice yourself for your fatherland. Indoctrination into the Nazi faith began early and continued into adulthood.

Schoolchildren sang, “Adolph Hitler is our savior, our hero. He is the noblest being in the whole world. For Hitler we live. For Hitler we die. Our Hitler is our lord”

By 1935, Hitler created the “blood laws” that made it illegal to marry or have sex with a Jew.

"Creation is not finished. Man is clearly approaching a phase of metamorphosis. The earlier human species has already reached the stage of dying out.... All of the force of creation will be concentrated in a new species... [which] will surpass infinitely modern man.... Do you understand now the profound meaning of our National Socialist movement?" (Adolf Hitler, quoted by Hermann Rauschning, _Hitler ma'a dit [Hitler Speaks]_ p.147, translated in _The Occult and the Third Reich_, Jean & Michel Angebert, p.178.)


"You'll think I'm crazy, but listen to me: Hitler will bring us to a catastrophe. But his ideas, once they have been transformed, will acquire a new strength." (Joseph Goebbels to his aide-de-camp, Prince Schaumburg-Lippe, quoted in Angeberts, p.234)
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby compared2what? » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:38 am

divideandconquer wrote:Hitler, Nazis, the religion of the blood and Nietzsche's overman.

The Third Reich was an occult-based religious movement to usher in the New Age. He was a great admirer of Helena Blavatsky and other occultists. Hitler hated Christianity and Catholics BUT he admired the discipline, doctrine, and pageantry of the Roman Catholic Chruch (Read Ominous Parallels by Leonard Peikoff ) And he obviously subscribed to Nietzsche "overman"


It wasn't a religious movement.

I'm not trying to be snotty or anything. I appreciate the post. It just wasn't. Also, the Nazi state had a much more extensive relationship with the church than that precis really covers. It's no reflection on Christianity. But it did happen..
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby divideandconquer » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:53 am

Oh, I know the Nazi state had an extensive relationship with the church, however, it was strictly business I also believe Nazis infiltrated the Vatican. But Hitler wanted no part of Christianity except to exploit it for his own purposes.

I do believe Nazism was/is very definitely a religion or religious movement.

religion -
1. belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny
2. the attitude and feeling of one who believes in a transcendent controlling power or powers
3. something of overwhelming importance to a person: football is his religion
4. archaic
a. the practice of sacred ritual observances
b. sacred rites and ceremonies
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby 82_28 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:54 am

Yes, and gnosticism is none of those.

I won't defend gnosticism but I will leave that for you just as so many before you have attempted to. You define it. That's not even a challenge. Do what you must. I may argue or debate but all is interest of knowledge, knowing, gnosis.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby Hammer of Los » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:58 am

...

Fond as I am of gnosticism, I can also quite readily agree with divideandconquer's definition.

Not much for me to argue with there.

I got that old time religion.

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