Guns (Yawn)

[Iamwhomiam]

Seeing a lot of FB chatter about a great new idea: force gun owners to purchase liability insurance. That way, per meme logic, "THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY WILL DESTROY THE GUN INDUSTRY."

Of course, it's not a new idea, nor a particularly great one. It upsets me that I know enough about the details of the insurance industry to recognize this was a bad idea, but I'll let better informed folks make the case:

Via: http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/na ... 287849.htm

...

The industry is warning lawmakers against requiring gun owners to carry an insurance coverage that they may not be able to easily purchase.

...

One gun insurance bill has been filed in the House. Rep. Carolyn B. Maloney, D-N.Y., has filed the Firearms Risk Protection Act of 2013 (HR 1369), which would require gun owners to purchase liability coverage and to show proof of that coverage when they purchase a firearm.

Maloney says her bill would introduce a market-based solution to holding gun owners liable for the weapons they own.

“As with car insurance premiums, higher risk gun owners will face higher premiums. Actuarial determinations will be made by insurance companies, as those experts are in the best position to make those determinations based on sound data analysis,” she says.

Maloney says her bill does not establish a federal insurance program. Instead, it imposes no specific requirements on insurance companies, but instead imposes a fine of $10,000 if during the sale of a weapon the seller does not confirm coverage or the buyer has not purchased it.

Several states including California, Connecticut, Massachusetts and Illinois have considered but not passed gun insurance legislation similar to Maloney’s.

Wherever these proposals surface, insurers have been telling lawmakers that such approaches would not only violate basic insurance principles but also be unworkable.

“Though well intentioned, such proposals misunderstand a fundamental principle of insurance—that it is designed to cover fortuitous, or accidental events; not intentional conduct. Property/casualty insurance does not and cannot cover intentional behavior such as criminal acts,” said Willem O. Rijksen, vice president of public affairs for the American Insurance Association.

According to Jimi Grande, senior vice president of federal and political affairs for the National Association of Mutual Insurance Companies, gun liability insurance measures would neither deter violence nor help victims.

“Liability coverage is designed to protect against accidental damages, most of which involving guns would be covered under a homeowner’s insurance policy. While some policies may provide coverage for liability stemming from the intentional use of a firearm for defensive purposes, no liability insurance product covers intentional acts of malicious violence, whether committed with a gun, a car, or any other instrument that is used as a weapon to deliberately harm people,” said Grande. “It is inconceivable that any insurer would offer such coverage, either as part of a homeowners or renters policy or on a stand-alone basis.”

Just a passing detail, though, no worries -- I'm sure today's sit-in at the House will change everything.

^^^^ Yeah. Call me when they're in the throes of death from their hunger strike.

I really want to address this issue Mr. WRex, and will. I think the article is a bit misleading. In the meantime, let's not forget the rather unique, at least to the gun manufacturing and oil and gas mining industries, to be legislatively protected from any harm their industry causes. Guns are unique among consumer products in being afforded such a protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act

Now I'm heading off to eat my first meal of this long day. The brandy will only help my stamina. It seems to go with anything and everything! Later.

Oh, just this, Homeowner's insurance only covers the liability of a gun being lost or stolen, not for damage one may do with it. An insured gun owner who's weapon is listed as a household possession on their homeowner's insurance policy will only be financially compensated for its loss or theft. Just like they would for any other household asset covered by their policy. Some kid finds your gun and shoots someone, that personal liability is not covered by any homeowner's insurance policy.

[JackRiddler]

Interesting. I remembered this old thread I started.

[Iamwhomiam]

Yes, who could forget? Two versions, the second, for context (if unfamiliar, or whose histories begin later.)

[Iamwhomiam]

Homeowner charged with manslaughter for shooting at home invasion suspects

By Fox 9 Minnesota Published January 31, 2017

A Minnesota homeowner is facing manslaughter charges after he told police he shot at a group of men who had tried breaking into his home, and one of the suspects later died in the hospital.

David Allen Pettersen, 65, called police around 7 a.m. Saturday to report a possible burglary and shooting at his home in Fieldon Township, just south of Madelia. According to the charging documents, Pettersen told the dispatcher he fired his handgun at a gray car that was leaving his property after an attempted burglary.

A deputy responding to the call found the car 2 miles north of Pettersen's home, with three people inside. One of the passengers, 19-year-old Nicolas Thomas Embertson, had a gunshot wound and later died at Madelia Hospital.

Another passenger, 18-year-old Kyle Thomas Nason, had a broken ankle. He told police that he, Embertson and a third man -- 18-year-old Cornelius Ayers -- were at Pettersen's home to "case" it for a future burglary.

Nason said his friends gave him a boost onto the second-level deck of the home, and that he injured his ankle when making the 10-foot jump back down. He told police he heard two loud bangs as Embertson drove away from the home. As they were headed down the driveway, Embertson said, "I think I've been hit," before losing consciousness. Nason continued driving the car until they were stopped by the deputy responding to Petterson's 911 call.

Pettersen told investigators he was in bed when he heard someone trying to open a door to the deck. He saw the person jump from the deck and crawl toward a car, at which point he grabbed a .45 caliber handgun and tried to shoot the tires of the car. Pettersen said he was about 10 feet from the car when he fired two or three shots.

Pettersen was arrested and booked into the Watonwan County Jail. Monday morning, he was charged with second-degree manslaughter and reckless discharge of a firearm.

"The law does say a self-defense law, but what we've gathered so far, we feel we have enough to charge him with second-degree manslaughter," Watonwan County Chief Deputy Jeremy Nachreiner told KEYC-TV in Mankato.

Click for more from Fox 9.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/31/homeowner-charged-with-manslaughter-for-shooting-at-home-invasion-suspects.html

[stefano]

Feels like this, too, is changing. I'm not sure the lobbyists and their politicians can keep going against popular opinion on gun control

[82_28]

Agreed.

How much longer can they sustain this? I don't know why it must be another high school where this happens to make such an impact (why not concerts? Why not the nighclubs? Why not the churches?), but I knew people affected by Columbine. That was in 1999. Yet I watch the pictures and hear the names of those whose lives have been terminated (revealed) today in Florida and they are the "same". Frozen in time. Just like they were nearly 20 years ago. Nothing has fucking been done. Nothing.

Anyhow, it struck me those Columbine victims were people just three or four years younger than me. Some would be 40 by now. Yet we seem to somehow psychologically trap them within their teenage youth with each and every incident. Why the youth? Why are there not more massacres at a fucking nursing home or bingo hall? Because, somehow death at gunpoint in innocent, formative places must be normalized. If it is not being normalized then tell me what is happening instead.

So, my opinion is, that it is one or the other. Frankly, the mind controlled, violence obsessed lunatics possess the cards here. They will either have to go for broke or fold. This cannot go on. Everything about the cruelty that has overcome the hurdles of social acceptance must now admit that they do intend to kill everyone they intend to. We will have to find out which side the corporate police state would like to adhere to. If the population of the dump people do exist at just 32%, with them having all the guns and shit, they could simply flick the switch and easily overtake a few cities overnight. Easily.

We're kind of left with, do we prefer a kinder police state or an absolutely barbaric one? Either way, much like being gunned down in a safe area, we will have no choice. It is up to the fascists in charge now and how they want to handle their legally armed conscripts.

[seemslikeadream]

these fascists are scaring ALL of our children.....they are creating a generation of children with PSD


U.S. averages a school shooting every 2.5 days in 2018

[82_28]

+T

[Karmamatterz]

Anybody give any consideration as to why these young men develop antisocial personality disorders? If guns were eliminated a person who is hell bent on killing others is going to find a way to do it. What is going on with these kids that at such a young age they develop these mental disorders? Certainly some could be classified as mentally ill, but so often the perp ends up dead by suicide by cop or self-inflicted so it becomes almost impossible to dig into the causes. Not so much interested in the ban the guns discussion, but what are the roots of these problems?

This link explores that the Cruz's parent had died and he was emotional disturb early on.

https://www.newsday.com/news/nation/flo ... 1.16781810

" told The Washington Post that her sister-in-law did her best to raise her troubled son. “I don’t think it had anything to do with his upbringing,” she said of the shooting. “It could have been the loss of his mom. I don’t know.”

[seemslikeadream]

Trump Signs Bill Revoking Obama-Era Gun Checks for People With Mental Illnesses
The rule, which was finalized in December, added people receiving Social Security checks for mental illnesses and people deemed unfit to handle their own financial affairs to the national background check database.

Had the rule fully taken effect, the Obama administration predicted it would have added about 75,000 names to that database.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... al-n727221

mental disorders?????

how about going to school every day worried that a classmate may kill you......

kid can't buy cigarettes or alcohol but he can get a gun any fucking time he wants


"NRA reported spending a record $55 million on the 2016 elections, including $30 million to support Trump – triple what the group devoted to backing Mitt Romney in 2012. Most of that was spent by an arm of the NRA that is not required to disclose its donors

NEWS & POLITICS
Trump Actually Slashed Funding to Fight White Supremacist Violence Prior to Florida School Shooting
His administration prioritized going after Muslim extremists instead.
By Cody Fenwick / AlterNet February 15, 2018, 5:54 PM GMT


A white supremacist group in Florida has claimed ties to the alleged shooter Nikolas Cruz in this week's devastating shooting at a Florida school. As the investigation continues, the true motives of the shooter and ties to any ideology remain uncertain, but the group's willingness to tie itself to such an atrocity speaks to the unnerving enthusiasm for violence inherent in the ideology.

According to a report from the Anti-Defamation League, white supremacists and other far-right groups made up the bulk of extremism-related deaths in 2017. Meanwhile, Muslim extremists were only responsible for 26 percent of these deaths.

But even as this kind of dangerous white supremacist bigotry persists in the United States, President Donald Trump's administration has slashed funding meant to combat white supremacist extremism.

The Department of Homeland Security even pulled back a $400,000 grant allocated by the Obama administration to Life After Hate, a group that works to dissuade right-wing extremists from violent ideologies. A total of $10 million in funds similar to this were frozen as the administration aimed to focus more on domestic terrorism committed by Muslims and less on white supremacists. The administration's 2018 budget completely cut the program's funding of $50 million.

The department also reportedly changing the name of its Countering Violent Extremism program to Countering Islamic Extremism.

“These findings are a stark reminder that domestic extremism is a serious threat to our safety and security,” said ADL CEO Jonathan A. Greenblatt of the report published in January. “We saw two car-ramming attacks in the U.S. last year-- one from an Islamic terrorist and another from a white supremacist in Charlottesville—and the number of deaths attributed to white supremacists increased substantially. The bottom line is we cannot ignore one form of extremism over another. We must tackle them all.”

Heidi Beirich, director of the intelligence project for the Southern Poverty Law Center, agreed.

“It’s a disgrace that Trump is cutting out Countering Violent Extremism funds for white supremacists and neo-Nazis. We know that the domestic terror threat from them is as great as it from Islamic radicals. It’s a very serious situation,” she said in a statement to the Hill.
https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-polit ... or-florida

[NeonLX]

This country is obsessed with violence. Almost all entertainment--movies, games, you name it--is focussed on violence. We worship the military, football players and Rambo.

Our history is chock-full of violence. Of course.

[seemslikeadream]

I miss you

[NeonLX]

I don't have anything intelligent to say. I only state the obvious.

[Karmamatterz]

mental disorders?????

how about going to school every day worried that a classmate may kill you......

kid can't buy cigarettes or alcohol but he can get a gun any fucking time he wants

Cruz was 18-years-old when he purchased the gun. That is the same age you're "legally" allowed to purchase cigarettes in Florida, and most states. Not sure what your point was. It's a well known fact that if you want to buy a gun, you can find a seller. It seems this has been covered over and over, but still needs repeating. Guns aren't going to disappear in the U.S. Even if every gun was destroyed today guns would be smuggled in and sold on the black market. How do you think felons who are released from prison are able to buy guns? They don't go to Cabella's and use their credit card at the counter. They buy them on the black market. It's foolish to think tighter gun restrictions are going to prevent loonies from killing people.

Look at this chart and take notice how many more people were killed by knives than rifles. The AR-15 is a rifle.


Anybody who has basic knowledge of firearms knows that most semi-automatic handguns have can hold about 15 rounds of ammo in their magazine. An AR-15 typically holds 30. Changing magazines in a handgun can be done in just a few seconds. So a typical shooter could easily fire off 30 rounds in just about the same amount of time using a handgun vs. a AR-15. You're talking maybe 6-7 seconds difference at the most. Technically an AR-15 assault rifle is not for sale to civilians in the U.S. Assault rifles are automatic, and are not legal. There are A LOT of people in the U.S. that like to own guns for various reasons.

So mental disorders or illness isn't an acceptable thing to discuss here? It's not "normal" people going around killing in these shooting sprees. Something is wrong with them whether it's depression, or antisocial pathologies. The real problem is not guns. The real problem is that their are disturbed people who are so off-kilter that they want to kill others. Ted Kaczynski killed 3 and injured 23 people with 16 different bombs. Bombs, not guns. He could have easily built larger bombs and left them at areas with more people and killed more, but he chose carefully in his targets. A wacko can build a bomb and disguise it well enough that dozens of people could walk by and never notice it until it goes off.

I'm curious why there isn't a bigger discussion about helping people who are not handling their mental issues well? Sure as hell not defending the kid, but his parents died and he had problems, a lot of them. It seems like it's easier to just blow the dog whistle on guns instead of addressing the root problems of why someone would want to kill like that. What happened with this kid throughout his life that he ended up this way? What is happening right now to other young people that they feel so disconnected and become anti-social that they turn to violence instead of adapting to normal behaviors?

It's easier and creates a bigger emotional response to blame Trump, the NRA or anybody BUT the actual person who committed the murder(s). If people really wanted the best solutions it would be helping those who are at risk. They sure are going to come to RI for help, they would be labeled a fascist, Nazi, freak, Pepe wannabe or whatever and shunned. Just like in normal everyday life these kids are treated like wackos who are a "bit off" and all it does is make them worse off. Instead of the usual OMG he was a white nationalist/fascist/racist etc...why not ask how they became that way? It seems people want a political answer for something that requires a non-political solution.

Guns are not going away anytime soon. Nor is heroin, meth or cocaine. Those three drugs are killers and illegal, but people die daily from their usage.
https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topic ... eath-rates

How many of you know people who died from drug overdose? Unfortunately I've known a few. Anybody know a heroin addict? I know two in recovery. A kid who used to come to my home and play with my son when they were little died last year from a heroin OD. This kid came from a good family, seemed normal as any other kid, but for whatever reasons was so unhappy he got hooked on smack. It impacts so many peoples lives in a much larger and more insidious way than do guns. A gun locked up doesn't hurt anybody. A heroin addict ruins their life, their family, their children and others. One of the people I know who is in recovery used to spend all her money on drugs instead of food or clothes for her three kids. You all can get as excited about gun control as you want, but drugs are a much much worse problem. It's truly sick and heartbreaking to see what happens to people with severe drug addictions.

[Burnt Hill]

It's foolish to think tighter gun restrictions are going to prevent loonies from killing people.

The real problem is that their are disturbed people who are so off-kilter that they want to kill others.

....and they have easy access to killing tools.

This can easily be legislated to prevent what happened in Florida, as you pointed out he bought the gun legally.
Not doing anything because it wont solve everything is a strategy of the gun lobby.