What constitutes Misogyny?

[WakeUpAndLive]

^ Ah, beautiful!

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to strutting my slutty, feminist self in June...

http://slutwalkseattle.com/about

They have this every weekend in Isla Vista. Of course their intentions aren't the same as this walk.

[brekin]

barracuda wrote:

brekin wrote:
If in the next hour no one agrees with what
I've said so far I'll exile myself from this thread forever. It is 1:27 right now.

barracuda wrote:

It's 2:32.

WakeUpAndLive wrote:
I meant to agree with some of his positions in one of my posts that I accidentally hit the X button on and then didn't re-include it on the retype.

I'll take that as my reprieve. And I think WakeUpAndLive has articulated the heart of the matter for me at least:


WakeUpAndLive wrote:

since when does DISAGREEMENT = HATRED? no trolling just a serious question because I am not privy to your view on this. It is possible one of brekins' post contains the following:

"[Misogyny] is a central part of sexist prejudice and ideology and, as such, is an important basis for the oppression of females in male-dominated societies. Misogyny is manifested in many different ways, from jokes to pornography to violence to the self-contempt women may be taught to feel for their own bodies"

I know if I was provided with examples of my behavior in this thread which demonstrated some of these ideas I truly would question my position on this matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Here is an actual definition of Misogyny. Please, anyone, quote me where I have engaged in an example of the above.
Can't? Then I haven't behaved misogynistically.
I recognize the right for anyone to feel they have been treated misogynistically, but once they accuse someone they need to substantiate it.
Why? Because you are labeling someone with a pretty hefty charge. Again, if a person of color calls someone racist or a homosexual calls someone
homophobic then they would have to substantiate it. Why? Because they are accusing someone.
If they choose not to then they are behaving irresponsibly.

For example:

Project Willow wrote:

If there is a genuine call for some sort of statement to be made here, within a time frame, then I'll make it. Yes, brekin, I have to say again, I experience your contributions to this thread as examples of all manner of wrong. I view our relative positions at this point as intractably irreconcilable. I think further exchanges will be deleterious to the discussion here, not to mention the general advancement of women, kind of like how the royal wedding is a distraction from the Canadian election.

My opinions now are deleterious to the advancement of women. I think I need some quotes to show that.

The argument will be made that by disagreeing with some people's views on the board or asking them to see a males point of view in an encounter,
or even asking them to provide examples of my misogynistic behavior I am invalidating their experience. As this is shown here:

C_W wrote:

when we have tried to answer the question: "Why do you think I've been misogynistic?" we've answered: "because you've invalidated our experiences." The result of that has been more invalidation which is evidenced by the fact that the same question: "Why do you think I've been misogynistic" gets asked again and again, thereby invalidating us once more.

The point is that this level of invalidation verges on being abusive. Since the subject of the invalidation is womens' experiences in a thread about misogyny it does seem that this repeated abusive behaviour might be rooted in sexism.

Again, an actual definition:

invalidate - show to be invalid
nullify
negate, contradict - prove negative; show to be false

This implies that I have proven their experiences false. Something which they obviously don't intend as much as they
continue to riff on it.
And if somehow I show that someones experience was false, meaning not true, then I am being abusive?
Now remember the only power I have to invalidate someone's experience is through discussion and argument.
And I doubt anyone I've disagreed with believes I have proven their experience to be false.
I need them to admit so, or a higher authority then both of us.
So where does that leave us?
Basically I give my opinion and ask the other person to examine their opinion from different points of view.
They can choose to or not. This is a forum, which is an exchange of ideas. I can't invalidate anyone's experience
unless they or some higher power (like a mod) agree with me, endorsing my opinion. That is not going to happen
we know.

However the way it is going my experience is threatened to be invalidated because
a few people with the backing of a mod are willing to go as far as suspending my account
because they grow weary of my voice. No examples, just my insistence for those who
shout labels at me to define behavioral examples.

As I shown earlier my behavior didn't meet the criteria of paternalism, I believe it also doesn't meet
either misogynism or invalidation of peoples experiences. Some people may feel otherwise, but
feelings can't create what isn't there or stretch definitions to satisfy their hubris.

[Maddy]

I'm very glad you were able to validate yourself, brekin! Cheers!

Now on to slutwalks, of which we're having one next month, here! I can't wait to go! I'm very excited.

* SlutWalk is not about hate, and we do not use hateful language.
* SlutWalk addresses the culture that excuses away all sexual assault, not solely rape.
* SlutWalk recognizes that sexual assault is not something solely done by men to women.
* All people, regardless of gender, have a role in challenging victim blaming and sex shaming that create a culture that justifies acts of sexual violence. This event is not just about the violence, but the excuses that allow violence to continue.
* Women are most often the targets and men are most often the perpetrators, but all genders are affected. SlutWalk recognizes all gender expressions as those that have been and can be negatively impacted. All genders can be sluts or allies.
* Some communities/people are at a higher risk of sexual assault than others based on their status, work, ability, access, race, identity, and a variety of other factors. We aim to recognize this and come together, in all our diversity, as people who are all affected and unite as sluts and allies.
* We recognize that sex workers face extensive historical and current victim blaming and slut-shaming due to their work.
* SlutWalk is an impassioned and peaceful stance that aims to engage others in dialogue.

[Project Willow]

In a thread about misogyny...

I've, I, I, I'll, I, I, brekins', I, I, I, I, I, I, misogynistically, My, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, my account, my voice. I, I, ...

[brekin]

I think WakeUpAndLive has articulated the heart of the matter for me at least:

WakeUpAndLive wrote:

Quote:
since when does DISAGREEMENT = HATRED? no trolling just a serious question because I am not privy to your view on this. It is possible one of brekins' post contains the following:

"[Misogyny] is a central part of sexist prejudice and ideology and, as such, is an important basis for the oppression of females in male-dominated societies. Misogyny is manifested in many different ways, from jokes to pornography to violence to the self-contempt women may be taught to feel for their own bodies"

I know if I was provided with examples of my behavior in this thread which demonstrated some of these ideas I truly would question my position on this matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Here is an actual definition of Misogyny. Please, anyone, quote me where I have engaged in an example of the above.
Can't? Then I haven't behaved misogynistically.
I recognize the right for anyone to feel they have been treated misogynistically, but once they accuse someone they need to substantiate it.
Why? Because you are labeling someone with a pretty hefty charge. Again, if a person of color calls someone racist or a homosexual calls someone
homophobic then they would have to substantiate it. Why? Because they are accusing someone.
If they choose not to then they are behaving irresponsibly.

For example:

Project Willow wrote:

Quote:
If there is a genuine call for some sort of statement to be made here, within a time frame, then I'll make it. Yes, brekin, I have to say again, I experience your contributions to this thread as examples of all manner of wrong. I view our relative positions at this point as intractably irreconcilable. I think further exchanges will be deleterious to the discussion here, not to mention the general advancement of women, kind of like how the royal wedding is a distraction from the Canadian election.

My opinions now are deleterious to the advancement of women. I think I need some quotes to show that.

The argument will be made that by disagreeing with some people's views on the board or asking them to see a males point of view in an encounter,
or even asking them to provide examples of my misogynistic behavior I am invalidating their experience. As this is shown here:

C_W wrote:

Quote:
when we have tried to answer the question: "Why do you think I've been misogynistic?" we've answered: "because you've invalidated our experiences." The result of that has been more invalidation which is evidenced by the fact that the same question: "Why do you think I've been misogynistic" gets asked again and again, thereby invalidating us once more.

The point is that this level of invalidation verges on being abusive. Since the subject of the invalidation is womens' experiences in a thread about misogyny it does seem that this repeated abusive behaviour might be rooted in sexism.

Again, an actual definition:

invalidate - show to be invalid
nullify
negate, contradict - prove negative; show to be false

This implies that I have proven their experiences false. Something which they obviously don't intend as much as they
continue to riff on it.
And if somehow I show that someones experience was false, meaning not true, then I am being abusive?
Now remember the only power I have to invalidate someone's experience is through discussion and argument.
And I doubt anyone I've disagreed with believes I have proven their experience to be false.
I need them to admit so, or a higher authority then both of us.
So where does that leave us?
Basically I give my opinion and ask the other person to examine their opinion from different points of view.
They can choose to or not. This is a forum, which is an exchange of ideas. I can't invalidate anyone's experience
unless they or some higher power (like a mod) agree with me, endorsing my opinion. That is not going to happen
we know.

However the way it is going my experience is threatened to be invalidated because
a few people with the backing of a mod are willing to go as far as suspending my account
because they grow weary of my voice. No examples, just my insistence for those who
shout labels at me to define behavioral examples.

As I shown earlier my behavior didn't meet the criteria of paternalism, I believe it also doesn't meet
either misogynism or invalidation of peoples experiences. Some people may feel otherwise, but
feelings can't create what isn't there or stretch definitions to satisfy their hubris.

[barracuda]

I'll take that as my reprieve.

I did not take it that way.

Here is an actual definition of Misogyny. Please, anyone, quote me where I have engaged in an example of the above.
Can't? Then I haven't behaved misogynistically.

The entire point of the last ten or so pages has been to gently and not-so-gently inform you as an uninformed individual of the fact that it is not up to you, as a man, to point to and/or promulgate a definition of the term which suits your purposes. Realistically, we've seen a wide variety of behaviors reasonably designated as demonstrating misogyny, and, endlessly, the women here have nicely and not-so-nicely let you know that your behavior falls into certain of these categories, right up until the point whereupon they have all quite obviously assigned to your comments all available varieties of ignoral.

I, as a mod, enjoy no such luxury.

Now remember the only power I have to invalidate someone's experience is through discussion and argument.

You invalidate it by your incessant, childish, categorical disregard. Thanks for the snoopdance, though. Twice.

And thanks for the object lesson as well.

[Project Willow]

Now on to slutwalks, of which we're having one next month, here! I can't wait to go! I'm very excited.

Wow, I'm so happy! It's like some sort of resurgence after all these years of acquiescence. We've had third-wave followed by nothingness. I thought everyone was asleep, hypnotized by all the corporotocracy's machinations. Now we've got some action again. Dare I adjust my misanthropy meter? I don't know yet, but the prospective view is exhilarating!!! Woohoo!!!

(Go NDP too.)

[Maddy]

I wouldn't adjust the misanthropy meter just yet. I'm not! However I am getting there on interpersonal basis with a few select people, including those I work with.

Have I mentioned I love my work?

Yeah.

[Project Willow]

^^ Go Maddy, empowerment is the key, as we each experience and define it.

[Jeff]

I, as a mod, enjoy no such luxury.

You sir, as a mod, enjoy no luxury. Let's just be clear about that.

brekin, IMO, was trolling the thread and earned a week's suspension. Thanks to barracuda for his efforts here to maintain the integrity of the thread.

[Maddy]

[hava1]

famous ? well...

anyway, 1. I suppose that on the subject of this thread I would be on your side.
2. however, the fact that its war zone, does not mean that you can ride on others, in the name of the revolution.
3. i think that a small "oops sorry" would have sufficed, re your disrespectful, and IMHO, male chauvinist in tone, responses to me on the other thread.

I dont see a coffin here, except usually my very own, in this board, with a big yellow hexagram on it.

go ahead, and move along...

Now poor N.Ash has to stand in the corner for speaking too freely near "enemy lines", so I will reserve my unpopular thoughts on whether I quality as "woman" (or better still "feminist") for some people here. Some nations have only one gender "soldier", which is usually male, no matter which genitals one carries. But...i will soon be accused of "resentment", so ...i'll leave it at that.

you are famous for making inflammatory statements and then saying you're finished talking.

but then you come back.

so I'm going to assume that you are going to come back again and read this and respond.

I do not believe that Norton is standing in a corner.

You want to be the one who finally puts the nail in my coffin after all the work these boys have done?

[WakeUpAndLive]

Well ladies I've taken a step back from this thread and thought about it for a bit. I then later heard this song and confirmed my initial thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y0_atYQfdw

In my room listenin to sermon Gershwin,
Earth wind, and fire
Listenin to persons i admire
Searchin for higher learnin like ice cube
On i-tunes, listenin to grown men
Rappin like it's highschool
Listenin to friends talk, hearin my pen stop
Used to write first, now i try to listen then jot
Listenin to pop like reddenbachs
City to the boondocks
Can't you hear the games like a jukebox?
Cause you gotta pay to play
And theres no lay-away
hearin from folks caught in real snares, no 808
Real talk, like vocals going straight to tape
I say it straight and never twice
No fake delay
Listen with the volume down, push the sound back
If every lifes a movie all our soundtracks
Sound like sound clash
All our sounds bleeding in
To each other no sound reasonin
Stop, breathe again, listen

Music(Art)* is a great way to heal
And a safe place to feel
Trapped in this fake world
A gateway to real
It's a great way to heal
And a safe place to feel
Trapped in this fake world
A gateway to real
Listening to sounds in a space that's vacant
Profound and deep, underground as basements
And quiet as kept but i found it sacred
A sage said silence is the sound of patience
Listen

*my personal addition


I guess my frustration earlier is having vicariously experienced some sort of unease when experiencing it at play right in front of my eyes (at least in more recent years where I have started to question). The previous example at the Tepan table. When my two sisters had a Hindu wedding ceremony they took the 7 vows (http://www.recipedelights.com/saptapadi.htm), something I don't see fit for either of their personalities. Surprisingly, in the first wedding I didn't think as much of it...whereas with the second one it hit me hard. In my soccer league with 15yr-19yr co-ed teams, coaches would play the girls the minimum amount of time and try to not have them on the field at the same time (a rule was created where at least 3 women had to be on the field at a time). I have never experienced misogyny as I'm not a female, but I can say that I have felt feelings of oppression and no-one should have to be subject to such a thing. Apologies for all occurrences.

[Stephen Morgan]

Types of Emotional Abuse
Emotional abuse can take many forms. Three general patterns of abusive behavior include aggressing, denying, and minimizing.

Aggressing

Aggressive forms of abuse include name-calling, accusing, blaming, threatening, and ordering. Aggressing behaviors are generally direct and obvious. The one-up position the abuser assumes by attempting to judge or invalidate the recipient undermines the equality and autonomy that are essential to healthy adult relationships.[...]

Just in the interests of mutual understanding, I hope you can see how brekin might be upset too. Everyone accusing him of being a misogynist, which I assume he doesn't consider himself to be. Been there, done that. I just didn't make such a fuss about it.

[Canadian_watcher]

Now on to slutwalks, of which we're having one next month, here! I can't wait to go! I'm very excited.

Wow, I'm so happy! It's like some sort of resurgence after all these years of acquiescence. We've had third-wave followed by nothingness. I thought everyone was asleep, hypnotized by all the corporotocracy's machinations. Now we've got some action again. Dare I adjust my misanthropy meter? I don't know yet, but the prospective view is exhilarating!!! Woohoo!!!

(Go NDP too.)

yay to slutwalk and to the NDP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From the official SlutWalk Toronto Facebook Page:

Founded on the hurtful occasion where a Toronto Police Services representative announced that women could reduce their risk of sexual assault by not dressing like "sluts".

Sparking outrage, we are taking a stand.