What constitutes Misogyny?

[tru3magic]

I believe this sums up a lot of the thoughts in this thread.

[compared2what?]

what is more unpleasant than a gang of men yelling about No means yes and yes means anal.. and then a lot of them going around and acting on that?

If a load of them had been going around acting on it, that would have been more unpleasant.

So it would. Hey, you know what?

A load of them do go around acting on it, insofar as a load of them do go around sexually assaulting, molesting, and harassing female students:

(a) with impunity;

(b) as a matter of routine;

(c) in contradiction of stated university policy;

(d) potentially in violation of criminal statutes, though it's impossible to say how often that potential is realized since Yale has instituted a system that short-circuts the process whereby they might otherwise be prosecuted;

(e) almost certainly in violation of Title IX, and that's based just on the incidents in the complaint, which is not a comprehensive but rather a representative account of them.

You know what else?

Well, of course you don't. But if you stay right there, in just a few moments, I'll tell you.

Yay!

[compared2what?]

Title IX is unenforceable.

It's also almost completely unenforced.

[compared2what?]

Conditions were exactly the same when I was a college student, as well as before I was a college student, as well as after I was a college student.

I say again that some form of violent sexual assault has been a regular part of my experience for decades. It still is, as a matter of fact. I mean, it's not nearly as regular as it was when I frequently socialized with large groups of my peers in the various settings (parties, bars, clubs, school, just-hanging-out) where socializing frequently occurs between adolescence and (typically) some unfixed point in one's twenties or thirties. But I still sometimes get grabbed/groped/seized-with-intent-to-sexually-embrace by some guy who happened to feel the whim at a time when he had the opportunity to act on it.

I still expect to be, in a general sense, to be honest. Despite which, it's just as much of an absolute shock to me each and every goddamn time it happens as it was when I hadn't even been walking around with conventionally gropable physical features for long enough to have the first fucking clue what the social conventions that applied to them in reality-as-it-is versus reality-as-it's-said-to-be were.

I do understand that there's a contradiction there, of course. But c'est la vie. When I was fourteen years old, I totally did not expect to have a guy sitting next to me on the bus....Or maybe it's "coach," in British parlance? I'm not sure. But it was a bus with upholstered row-seating, ont which I was sitting in a window seat being too close to brand-new to the world of breast-having to expect them to be grabbed by a guy sitting next to me, long story short. That kind of assault just didn't exist anywhere in the world of real or narrative social constructs in the mid-'70s at all, even as a concept. I personally didn't conceive of it in those terms until many, many years later wrt that particular incident.

And I really only do so now because that particular incident involved enough sudden body-impact physical force to meet the minimum conventional standard criteria for violence -- ie, he turned and lunged at me, knocking me back against the wall while grabbing and squeezing my left breast with his right hand and pushing/holding/blocking me in place with his left arm, shoulder and upper body weight. He was a seedy old guy, but he was a lot bigger and stronger than I was. That's just not a very high bar to clear, I'm petite.

In any event. You coulda knocked me over with a feather, I was that shocked. It happened very quickly and only lasted for the second or two it took me to comprehend that however inconceivable it might be, it was actually happening. I reflexively tried to raise my arms into a defensive/pushing position, he instantly fell back, and it was over. He got off the bus at the next stop, about ten or twenty minutes later. From my point of view, it wasn't traumatic then. In itself, it still isn't now, really. It would be if it happened now, though. Because in the now, it would be part of a cumulative body of experience that includes violent sexual assault that was too comprehensively sexual and violent not to have been. At the time, I so totally didn't know what to make of it that I didn't really believe it had happened, I just knew that it had.

I felt exactly the same way standing on my fire escape looking at the billows of smoke and dust that were where one of the WTC towers had been until a few seconds earlier, to use a comparably unprecedented and sudden public experience to which we all had common access. The distinctions aren't minor ones, since (among other things) an almost incredible public experience that was widely shared by many people stops being almost incredible and starts being valid virtually immediately more or less on its own, simply as a function of having been public and widely shared. Consequently, it very quickly becomes easy to recognize/refer to in the terms that are commonly understood to define it/blah, blah, blah/you get the point, because it's this:

It's normal for women to be violently sexually assaulted, and even more normal for them to be forcibly sexually assaulted. The conceptual precedents for sexual assault as it normally occurs that didn't exist at all thirty-five years ago do exist now, but only just barely and as concepts. In practice, violent sexual assault continues to occur on a regular basis that goes largely unrecognized by everyone -- including (to some extent) the people to whom it occurs -- because it's normal.
_______________

Can you understand that, Stephen? Women are regularly sexually assaulted by men. That's normal. Most people, male and female, do not believe it. And that's because most people subscribe to a system of belief per which it's not normal for women to be regularly sexually assaulted by men. There's a very large subset of people for whom it's normal to not believe that they've had the real experiences that they know they did have, therefore. On a provisional basis, let's call that subset "many women." But let's not call their real experiences anything other than "real experiences."

Okay? Because, you know:

(a) Baby steps; and

(b) Holy shit and goddamn, I could keep giving you an intimate blow-by-blow account of my innumerable experiences of sexual assault for another eighty pages, but it's not like thousands and thousands of women haven't already made hundreds of attempts to alert an implacable world to that little aspect of their normal experience via every conceiva. ble fucking form of conventional communication there is, including fucking writing it up on T-shirts, for pity's sake. Nobody really believes it. You don't. For all practical purposes, I don't.
__________________

I can't imagine that will ever change. I don't hope to change it. I know that the beliefs to which we commonly subscribe are false and destructive. I want to say so more than I want to avoid the socially punishing response that follows. And that's all. I want no other thing from you, myself or anyone.

Thanks in advance for your tolerance of that. More in a bit, I think.

[barracuda]

Thanks for that.

As far as I can tell, Ms. What?, your narrative above brings the number of women on this forum who have admitted in fairly plain terms to the fact that they have suffered sexual assault in one form or another to the neighborhood of double digits. My question would be whether or not there is even a single woman on this forum who hasn't.

[Canadian_watcher]

When I was fourteen years old, I totally did not expect to have a guy sitting next to me on the bus....Or maybe it's "coach," in British parlance? I'm not sure. But it was a bus with upholstered row-seating, ont which I was sitting in a window seat being too close to brand-new to the world of breast-having to expect them to be grabbed by a guy sitting next to me, long story short.

FWIW, I had an almost identical experience. Bus, window seat, 16 yrs old, pervert next to me. Mine tried to give me a pill first. And mine ran his hand up my leg when he thought I was sleeping. The similarities might be eerie if the whole experience of sexual assault weren't so goddam normal.

I can't imagine that will ever change. I don't hope to change it. I know that the beliefs to which we commonly subscribe are false and destructive. I want to say so more than I want to avoid the socially punishing response that follows.

I can.
I do.
They are.
Count me in.

[Canadian_watcher]

... as a person I'm connected to others. In my life are women and girls who mean so much to me. The danger, disadvantage and hostility they face matters to me. First of all because I love them. Desmond Tutu's short definition of Ubuntu is: " It means that we are people through other people." As and American I can't think of a word native to American English to express the fundamental interdependence of people, nevertheless I believe Ubuntu is universal, a fact of being human. So misogyny is a serious problem not just because I love the women and girls in my life, but also because the harm affects me.

So of course as a man too often unconscious of my privilege I don't experience misogyny as women do; misogyny still affects me and not in an all together unconscious way.

This! This is the jumping off point and the attitude that can make these discussions work.

Thanks wallflower for being the example to follow.

Alright then, I feel the same as wallflower, thank you!

I lost my way for a bit there.. I was getting bogged down in the bad things.
Thanks to the good peeps here though - and posts like this - we're finding our way back!

[compared2what?]

And when you denounce a description of men as basically a bunch of fucking rapists, then I'll take seriously what you think is a POS thing to say. What is vile and hateful.

Hm. Well, let me ask you something. Does this really read to you as a vile incitement to hatred of men?

Men are, generally speaking, largely a bunch of fucking rapists.

It does to me. I denounce it as vile and hateful. But....Hey, wait a minute!

How about this?

Honestly, I don't really care if people's feelings get hurt here about this. I know for a fact that if one in six women are sexually assaulted, the only real conclusion that can be drawn from that statistic is that men are, generally speaking, largely a bunch of fucking rapists. And until this attitude changes - men's attitude toward women - the nature of the state will never change, the wars will never end, the pollution will keep pumping, the assaults will keep happening, the prisons will get fuller, and on and on.

Because I'd say you'd have to go pretty far out of your way to understand that as a vile incitement to hatred of any kind. Indeed, you'd have to willfully misconstrue it like you were Etta James covering "It's a Man's, Man's World," as far as I can see.

And that's just as it stands. Once you factor in all the material that preceded it in context, I'd say it makes about as much sense to focus on the vile and hateful appearance of that sentence in isolation as if it had meaningful implications for the post as a whole as this would:

Woman is the nigger of the world.

Ugh, that looks vile and hateful, and then vile and hateful again! I'd certainly denounce it if I didn't know it was a part of this:



But I do know the context, in both cases. And I sincerely don't understand how either can be read as vile and hateful.

May I redirect the innocent, non-rancorous, not-hostile request for elaboration wrt barracuda's post that I initially made to norton ash your way?

Same ground rules, no wrong answer, etcetera. I really just don't get it. And if there's an "it" there, I want to.

Thanks.

[Project Willow]

Hugs to C2W, thank you for your beautiful voice.

[norton ash]

barracuda wrote:
Men are, generally speaking, largely a bunch of fucking rapists.

It's a vile thing to say, but I'm now all right with the poetic license.

(@C2W,You asked earlier... just an aside, please keep the good stuff coming.)

[Nordic]

i honestly thought the obl "news" would put this thread to bed. alas ...

If you so dislike it, having made this point long ago, you could just avoid the periodic "why isn't this dead yet" post. Or even clicking on it.

i was making a joke. your reaction just reinforces my impression of this thread as a coal seam fire, full of dangerous heat and gasses for all who venture near.

bye now

[Canadian_watcher]

i honestly thought the obl "news" would put this thread to bed. alas ...

If you so dislike it, having made this point long ago, you could just avoid the periodic "why isn't this dead yet" post. Or even clicking on it.

i was making a joke. your reaction just reinforces my impression of this thread as a coal seam fire, full of dangerous heat and gasses for all who venture near.

bye now

Nordic, if you can't see how coming on here and posting that when we were actually returning to a REAL DISCUSSION then I believe I'll have to bid you a fond adieu.

shame, that.

[charlie meadows]

barracuda wrote:
Honestly, I don't really care if people's feelings get hurt here about this. I know for a fact that if one in six women are sexually assaulted, the only real conclusion that can be drawn from that statistic is that men are, generally speaking, largely a bunch of fucking rapists. And until this attitude changes - men's attitude toward women - the nature of the state will never change, the wars will never end, the pollution will keep pumping, the assaults will keep happening, the prisons will get fuller, and on and on.

There is another real conclusion which can be drawn from that statistic. It is crucial to the integrity of this thread that someone among you correct Barracuda. That you have not done so to this point casts doubt on your willingness and perhaps your ability to express fairly your version of the collective experience. The aforementioned alternative conclusion is based on simple statistical evidence (available on every--first 3--rape statistic website I referenced) which ironically is often cited to show that men are, generally speaking, largely a bunch of fucking rapists. It is a simple truth and refutes Barracuda's facile and erroneous conclusion completely, showing it for what it is: a vile incentive to hatred.

If I must... and for seekers of truths which more closely approximate whole truths... LisaK may guide you.

Godspeed.

[barracuda]

[charlie meadows]

Grew up with the Moodies.



There are times when I think I've found the truth
There are times when I know that I'm wrong
And the days when I try to hide my fears
Bless the days when I'm feeling strong