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justdrew wrote:I agree with marshwren, and thank him for doing the good work on the newspaper message boards, that's an area that needs more attention.
the spectrum isn't from some communism to fascism. It's from rational best practices and an informed electorate to authoritarian private feudalism. Let's make a spectrum out of the alphabet, take A as the left and former description and Z as the right, later description. Now we're sitting not in the middle at M but probably all the way on maybe S. Maybe once upon a time we were around P. If you want to move the country to A, you can't just advocate for A and slag off anyone working to get the country to M, you have to walk the road and lead people along the way. Once we're back at M then you keep going and work to move things toward L
marshwren wrote:compared2what? wrote:
Word. Incidentally, you're missing the closing " in your OMH [quote="et cetera.
But: There are a couple of key differences between the hard left (so-called) and the hard right that are worth noting, imahlo.*
(1) The latter is a genuine part of a large and organized political force, that comes complete with people who understand that the key function of a popular political movement is to be, um, popular. That's why you don't usually see their apparatchiks bombarding a discussion board at which a fair number of people with a natural sympathy for their cause habitually talk political shop with antagonisistic, alienating and self-regarding spam. The former is not.
(2) As a general proposition, the first aim of anyone engaged in any political contest should be to win it. And also to win it fairly, imahlo.* So here's where the wheat gets separated from the chaff, prior to being tied into neat little bundles with axes on one side and blowing aimlessly around overworking its own nerves and those of the general populace on the other:
While the hard right doesn't give a flying fuck about whether it wins by fair means or foul, one of the main ways that you can tell that it is, in point of fact, engaged in a genuinely political fight is that it is always genuinely fighting to win, and picks its battles accordingly.
Whereas while the soi-disant hard left puts a lot of strenuous effort into making fairness a prominent part of its platform -- both rhetorically and to some extent actually -- which can and should be one of its most potent and naturally politically advantageous hallmarks, it gains absolutely fucking nothing of any realpolitik value thereby. Which is the totally predictable outcome of all its endeavors. And while that's obviously a circumstance that would be regarded as the A-#1 subject in dire need of urgent attention if the hard left were in fact enough of a genuinely political movement to grasp that the first aim of a political fight is to win it, it** isn't.*** Because it**** isn't.*****. Because it**** doesn't.******
I quite disagree: the only material difference between L & R is the latter is politically/electorally organized, while the former isn't. Indeed, the further 'left' one goes, the more it is taken as a mark of intellectual sophistication to disparage and trivialize electoral action. Which is why they have so little influence in public life. Fact is, for all of the hard Left's crocodile tears about the working class and the poor, they refuse to do what the Right has done: organize the masses into a political bloc that can influence public discussion and determine elections. In this, they are even more cynical than the Right, which regards "the great unwashed" as being sufficiently stupid and reactionary to be propagandized into voting against their own interests. The Left, OTOH, regards "the great unwashed" as being too stupid and reactionary to trust with the vote at all.
Also, from arguing with the RW'ers at my local paper's on-line reader forum, i've discovered that most RW loudmouths are really paper tigers, once they've been (persistantly) rebutted and refuted with facts. Took me (w/the help of a friend or two) a month or so., but the RW'ers no longer mention birth certificates, death panels, or call Obomb'em a socialist any more. Now that the RW noise machine has been muted, sensible people who avoided such public issues are making their voices heard--and while there's no shortage of misperception and misinformation, they actually appreciate having things explained to them in a calm, objective and respectful manner.
One point: the biggest difference between the L & R is the former actually cares about the competence of those who would represent them in elections; the latter is satisfied with any moron or idiot who passes ideological muster, regardless of their actual abilities or talents--which makes it easier for them to find candidates.
chlamor wrote:Defining people as "the electorate" is part of the problem. Informed or no that connotes passivity.
"Rational best practices" is not only murky but is really little other than the screwy notion of "pragmatism", at least in it's present form ,and that of course is always defined by the status quo, in this case the liberal version of the ruling class. It is not only futile in theory but has a track record of uselessness that is quite the lengthy scroll. For all the "pragmatic" and "reform-oriented" efforts there has been not only zero payback but these screwy ideas serve to keep the powers that be entrenched as the "electorate" flounders around with another of it's many feckless reforms.
There are no historical examples of your alphabet analogy that has lead to anything but further consolidation of power by the ruling class. By the time you moved from Z to Y you've been pushed back to Zed squared before you even had a moment to enjoy Y.
But there are a lot of feel-good liberals who revel in the "heady days of Y" and wonder why it is it didn't last and why it is conditions continue to worsen. Then they head off to try the same thing that got them to Y (candlelight vigils e.g.) forgetting that the same effort was worse than a failure on it's own terms instead continuing with the mistaken idea that it moved them "just a little bit" in the positive direction. It's insane all of it. It ain't working.
DawnB wrote:Answer me this - and we'll see if you answer the question directly - how many families have you fed for the month? How many families have you helped secure shelter for? How many charities have you written checks to? How many pieces of legislation have you helped pass?
DawnB wrote:And STILL I get no direct answer to my questions of Clams.DawnB wrote:Answer me this - and we'll see if you answer the question directly - how many families have you fed for the month? How many families have you helped secure shelter for? How many charities have you written checks to? How many pieces of legislation have you helped pass?
This is about a man who made the world a better place in a huge way, time and time again.
Anyone who trashes a man on the day of his funeral, or thereabouts, is .... well, let's just say that such a person has very little credibility with me.
Why Ted Kennedy, of course - a man who helped secure Meals on Wheels for seniors, the program providing healthcare for kids (SCHIP), saw that these key programs kept on going, etc., etc.
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