The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby slimmouse » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:37 am

Gilad [Atzmon said about a million really fucked up things. Did Norman Finkelstein have anything messed up ...[/to say at all? It seems like you are equating what Atzmon said with where Finkelstein said benign/positive things


Ive only seen one brief segement of an interview with Gilad Atzmon, and a mayor of one of the illegally occupied West Bank settlements.

Exaggeration asides, Atzmon is certainly wild with the rhetoric, but sounded nothing like as deceitful as his worship ( the mayor I think he was), who eventually left the interview, because Ritchie Allen refused to let him have his own way.

Allen was in fact,(for me at least) the real star in that interview, :praybow because he also cautioned Atzmon a number of times for his overgeneralisations, when it came to "Jews", which Atzmon had to actually acknowledge.

At least the whole thing was the kind of straight talking interview that people really need to be hearing.
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:45 am

slimmouse » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:37 am wrote:
Gilad [Atzmon said about a million really fucked up things. Did Norman Finkelstein have anything messed up ...[/to say at all? It seems like you are equating what Atzmon said with where Finkelstein said benign/positive things


Ive only seen one brief segement of an interview with Gilad Atzmon, and a mayor of one of the illegally occupied West Bank settlements.

Exaggeration asides, Atzmon is certainly wild with the rhetoric, but sounded nothing like as deceitful as his worship ( the mayor I think he was), who eventually left the interview, because Ritchie Allen refused to let him have his own way.

Allen was in fact,(for me at least) the real star in that interview, :praybow because he also cautioned Atzmon a number of times for his overgeneralisations, when it came to "Jews", which Atzmon had to actually acknowledge.

At least the whole thing was the kind of straight talking interview that people really need to be hearing.


The big concern for me is the implications regarding some of these folks coming onto these shows. Do they really want to endorse the notorious figure of David Icke, a name associated with the Protocols and Holocaust revisionism plus blood-drinking, satanist, shapeshifter, reptilians from Draco?

Any implication that someone like Norman Finkelstein would endorse such a worldview is beyond ridiculous.
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby slimmouse » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:40 am

American Dream » 14 Dec 2013 12:45 wrote:
slimmouse » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:37 am wrote:
Gilad [Atzmon said about a million really fucked up things. Did Norman Finkelstein have anything messed up ...[/to say at all? It seems like you are equating what Atzmon said with where Finkelstein said benign/positive things


Ive only seen one brief segement of an interview with Gilad Atzmon, and a mayor of one of the illegally occupied West Bank settlements.

Exaggeration asides, Atzmon is certainly wild with the rhetoric, but sounded nothing like as deceitful as his worship ( the mayor I think he was), who eventually left the interview, because Ritchie Allen refused to let him have his own way.

Allen was in fact,(for me at least) the real star in that interview, :praybow because he also cautioned Atzmon a number of times for his overgeneralisations, when it came to "Jews", which Atzmon had to actually acknowledge.

At least the whole thing was the kind of straight talking interview that people really need to be hearing.


The big concern for me is the implications regarding some of these folks coming onto these shows. Do they really want to endorse the notorious figure of David Icke, a name associated with the Protocols and Holocaust revisionism plus blood-drinking, satanist, shapeshifter, reptilians from Draco?

Any implication that someone like Norman Finkelstein would endorse such a worldview is beyond ridiculous.


What I dont understand AD, is why anyone appearing on the peoples voice should endorse David Ickes worldview? Same with anyone watching. Same with any guest.

Dont you have your own worldview AD?

I have to say that I do , and fortunately for me, despite not liking some of the guests, or their worldviews, or those of the hosts, producers etc, that doesnt exclude me from watching the peoples voice,

Icke has said that as far as he's concerned, the information is the star of this project, and I for one certainly wouldnt argue based upon what little Ive seen thus far.
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:55 am

I'm getting tired of talking about "The People's Voice" but I will say that I'm horrified and disgusted by its meta-role as a vehicle for the Icke Movement- which I consider to be bad news in many, many ways.

Sure, if there was some compelling reason to watch a clip, I would do so, but I would never, ever promote it as some great thing, much less suggest that folks should give money to the organizers. Quite the opposite.
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby slimmouse » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:26 am

American Dream » 14 Dec 2013 14:55 wrote:I'm getting tired of talking about "The People's Voice" but I will say that I'm horrified and disgusted by its meta-role as a vehicle for the Icke Movement- which I consider to be bad news in many, many ways.

Sure, if there was some compelling reason to watch a clip, I would do so, but I would never, ever promote it as some great thing, much less suggest that folks should give money to the organizers. Quite the opposite.


Well thank you for that. Thats your own personal opinion, but Im wondering about your conspiracy theory regarding the dangers of telling people how the world may work, and how it may indeed be very different to how they percieve it, whilst at the same time continually insisting that they form their own opinions, is somehow dangerous to society, or social activism in general?

Your call I guess. AD.
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:05 pm

slimmouse » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:26 am wrote: Im wondering about your conspiracy theory regarding the dangers of telling people how the world may work, and how it may indeed be very different to how they percieve it, whilst at the same time continually insisting that they form their own opinions, is somehow dangerous to society, or social activism in general?


Well that's not "my" conspiracy theory at all- it is your formulation, and a rather poor fit for my thinking and values.

In response to what I think you're saying- the Devil is in the details, innit?




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More at: http://ssy.org.uk/2011/11/class-politic ... -movement/
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:15 pm

BAMMM...THERE IT IS !

THE INFAMOUS....FAVORITE AD.... DI PHOTO

THE ONE WE'VE ALL BEEN WAITING 10 PAGES FOR! :yay
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:17 pm

Sorry to bluenoseclaret for participating in AD's game and highjacking another thread
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby Searcher08 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:44 pm

<Cheers and showers of peanuts from the gallery>

Still leaves the 4 corporations at the heart of the 147 corporations at the nexus of global capital... and the magnificently opaque BIS... and the Rothschilds...
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:25 pm

It occurs to me that I should have done more than just give a link in my previous post. Here is an excerpt, which may be valuable to some, especially those who are unfamiliar with this sort of analysis:

This radical transformation of society, from feudalism to capitalism terrified and alarmed many people in Europe and the USA. These societies existed during a time when the theories of race were commonly accepted and discussed as a science -- to justify both slavery and the imperial exploitation of Africa and other colonies. As well as racist prejudice one other common bigotry was anti-Semitism, the hatred of Jews. As capitalism developed, producing transnational, global insitutions many racists alarmed at this transformation identified the enemy behind it -- that of the Jew. As part of anti-semitic prejudice throughout Europe, Jews were forced into jobs in the financial sector that Christians deemed immoral -- like banking. So when the industrial revolution was financed by and empowered banks with Jewish owners anti-semites saw a conspiracy by the Jewish race to enslave the white Christian race.

Image
So much wrong in just one picture

The most notorious subject of these anti-Semitic conspiracy theories was the Rothschild Family. The Rothschilds were an extremely wealthy and powerful banking family during the 1800’s, who exercised massive influence over the developing capitalist economies of Europe and North America. This combination of power and Judaism made them the frequent target of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. As a major banking institution there’s no question the Rothschild’s would have been involved in underhanded and conspiratorial plans to influence governments and secure their markets -- but the accusations labelled at the Rothschilds go way beyond criticism of bankers influence, and into conspiracy nonsense about world Jewish plots to enslave the world. For example, the Rothschilds were accused of both funding American Capitalism and Russian Bolsheviks, a ridiculous allegation that had it’s base in anti-socialist racist sentiment. Many anti-Semites were disturbed at the challenge global capitalism posed to nation states sovereignty and could not understand the power of the economic system they faced, so instead chose to blame it on conspiratorial groups.

These ideas -- anti-banking sentiment of small business Democrats, and anti-semitic opposition to the Rothschilds -- unfortunately haven’t remained in the past. They continue to be advocated by people like Zeitgeist, Alex Jones and David Icke. This piece by Norfolk Community Action Group criticizes the influence these forces have in the occupy movement,

The populist narrative is also an integral part of the political views of conspiracy theorists, far right activists, and anti-Semites. For anti-Semites, the elites are the Jews; for David Icke, the elites are the reptilians; for nationalists, they are members of minority ethnic, racial, or religious groups; for others, they are the “globalists,” the Illuminati, the Trilateral Commission, the Freemasons, the Federal Reserve, etc. All of these various conspiracy theories also tend to blend in and borrow from each other. Additionally, the focus on “Wall Street” also has specific appeal to those who see the elite as represented by finance capital, a particular obsession of the anti-Semites, Larouchites, followers of David Icke, etc. “The Rothschilds” are the favorite stand-in codeword of choice to refer to the supposed Jewish control of the banking system.


The “Rothschild Zionists” feature in both Alex Jones and Icke’s material -- which blame a 200 year old banking institution for conspiratorial involvement in global capitalism. The reality is that the Rothschilds influence declined by the early 1900s -- blaming them for the financial crisis is like blaming the British East India company for the ongoing exploitation of Asia. The Rothschilds have been surpassed and overtaken by new financial institutions.

So why do they continue to be prevalent in conspiracy theories related to banking? Because in the USA, when people are discontent and angry at the banks instead of looking to socialism -- which has historically been weak in the USA -- they go back to the most prominent anti-banking ideas and figures, which unfortunately are anti-semitic. Likewise many bankers are identified as “Rothschild Zionists” by Icke who clearly have no familial connection to the Rothschild family at all -- like David Miliband and DSK. But it’s ok, as Icke explains:

“I should also stress that when I say ‘Rothschild’, I don’t only mean those called ‘Rothschild’, nor even all of the people who are known by that name. There are many in the Rothschild family and its offshoots who have no idea what the hierarchy is doing and there are many ‘Rothschilds’ who don’t carry the name itself.

When I say ‘Rothschild’, I am referring to the Rothschild bloodline because, as I have detailed in my books, they have long had breeding programmes that produce offspring that are brought up under other names.”


This is effectively an excuse to link all Jewish people in areas of power together, based on racist ideas of “bloodlines”, and using the code “Zionist” instead of what people really mean, which is Jew. Whatever crimes have been committed in the Zionist enterprise of the State of Israel against the Palestinians, the idea a country of five million Israelis control international finance is absurd and only makes sense if you believe in anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.


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http://ssy.org.uk/2011/11/class-politic ... -movement/
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby bluenoseclaret » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:18 pm

Jailing of Palestinians who tackled Israeli killer shows courts serve apartheid
Sawsan Khalife' The Electronic Intifada Shefa Amr

If further proof was needed that the courts are an integral part of Israel’s apartheid system, it was in abundance in a Haifa court last month.

Six Palestinian men have been handed prison sentences of up to two years each over the 2005 killing of an Israeli soldier who opened fire on a bus full of civilians in Shefa Amr, a city in the Galilee region of present-day Israel. A seventh man has been given a suspended sentence of eight months.

The court case, which concluded last month, demonstrates that Jewish and Palestinian citizens of Israel are treated differently by the the authorities.

Considerable effort was made to protect the reputation of Eden Natan Zada, the Israeli soldier who opened fire on the bus, murdering the driver and three passengers. The prosecution refused to label him a “terrorist” because using such a label would “disgrace the deceased,” as the Israeli daily Haaretz reported.

The Palestinians who tackled Zada and prevented him from inflicting an even higher death toll were, on the other hand, depicted as inherently violent. The court refused to accept the obvious that those who confronted Zada were responding to his unprovoked acts against innocent civilians and were trying to defend their community.

Hypocrisy

Judge Ilan Schiff claimed that Israel “cannot tolerate acts of retribution,” the Times of Israel reported. His words smacked of hypocrisy; Israel has frequently argued that its attacks on Gaza’s women and children were in retaliation for rockets fired from the Strip. For years it punitively destroyed the homes of family members of Palestinians suspected of armed resistance.

Despite recognizing that Zada killed his victims “simply because they were Arabs,” Schiff effectively rubber-stamped requests from the Israeli state, which had sought the accused be imprisoned for up to nine years. Schiff only departed from that request by taking account of how the trial had lasted for eight years when deciding how long the men would be locked away.

Jamil Safuri, one of the convicted, told The Electronic Intifada that “there is no doubt to anyone that this was a political trial based on racist approaches.”

“We face this discrimination in all aspects in our lives as the Palestinian minority in a Jewish state, whether in education, residency, civil rights or even the right to defend our own lives,” he said.

“We have no rights”

Had this been a case of Israelis killing a Palestinian in self-defense, it would more than likely have gone unpunished. We know this from bitter experience.

No criminal charges were brought against a Jewish Israeli taxi driver who along with police shot a Palestinian who allegedly struck an Israeli police car and a bus with his bulldozer in Jerusalem during 2009. The Palestinian man, a construction worker, died of his wounds.

This double standard was also the case with the killing of the perpetrator of a deadly attack on a yeshiva in Jerusalem in 2008 — a precedent raised by the Shefa Amr defense attorneys in court. The Palestinian gunman who slay eight was shot in the head by student Yitzhak Danon; Danon along with Israeli soldiers then fired repeatedly into the man’s body for ten minutes. “Five hundred or 600 bullets were fired,” according to one witness. No charges were filed against Danon, who was celebrated in the media as a national hero.

Morad Haddad, an elected member of the Shefa Amr municipality, told The Electronic Intifada that nobody was surprised by the Haifa District Court verdict.

“In a way, there is a positive side to this verdict. It shows the true face of the Israeli government towards the Palestinian citizens of its country.

“It shows that the blue ID [card] we hold is there to serve the agenda of the government. They treat us like citizens when it is convenient for them, and like terrorists in other cases. We, therefore, have no rights in this country.”


http://electronicintifada.net/content/j ... heid/12993

The following came to mind:

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are to possess and casts out the many peoples living there, you shall then slaughter them all and utterly destroy them…You shall make no agreements with them nor show them any mercy. You shall destroy their altars, break down their images, cut down their groves and burn their graven images with fire. For you are a holy people unto the LORD thy God and He has chosen you to be a special people above all others upon the face of the earth…”

–Book of Deuteronomy, 7:1-8
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:32 am

In an effort to get back on the OT of
'The U.k.'s pro-Israel lobby in context' ...
Some desktop (Wiki) research indicates that Christian Zionism has not taken hold in the UK like it has in the US, despite apparent American efforts to plant it here, so the population split of Zionists between Jewish people and Christians is not like in the US.

Another aspect: my intuition is that there is (proportionately) much less influence from Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox in the UK.
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby American Dream » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:53 am

Searcher08 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:32 am wrote:In an effort to get back on the OT of
'The U.k.'s pro-Israel lobby in context' ...
Some desktop (Wiki) research indicates that Christian Zionism has not taken hold in the UK like it has in the US, despite apparent American efforts to plant it here, so the population split of Zionists between Jewish people and Christians is not like in the US.

Another aspect: my intuition is that there is (proportionately) much less influence from Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox in the UK.


My sense of things is that the jewish side of the Israel Lobby in the U.S. is driven more than anything by secular and/or moderately religious jews, not so much the Hasidic minority or anybody like that- although appropriating images of the bearded dudes with the hats does make really good copy for those attempting to create a more cartoonish (crypto-racist) version of things. Icke does this, as do various other (right wing/fusion) conspiratologists.
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:26 am

American Dream » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:53 pm wrote:
Searcher08 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:32 am wrote:In an effort to get back on the OT of
'The U.k.'s pro-Israel lobby in context' ...
Some desktop (Wiki) research indicates that Christian Zionism has not taken hold in the UK like it has in the US, despite apparent American efforts to plant it here, so the population split of Zionists between Jewish people and Christians is not like in the US.

Another aspect: my intuition is that there is (proportionately) much less influence from Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox in the UK.


My sense of things is that the jewish side of the Israel Lobby in the U.S. is driven more than anything by secular and/or moderately religious jews, not so much the Hasidic minority or anybody like that- although appropriating images of the bearded dudes with the hats does make really good copy for those attempting to create a more cartoonish (crypto-racist) version of things. Icke does this, as do various other (right wing/fusion) conspiratologists.


Israel itself seems a different state of affairs, where it looks like the 'Settler'-types have much more influence in terms of the fractured nature of Israeli society; perhaps due to having deciding votes in constantly shifting coalitions?

I was very surprised to find that according to (Wiki) sources,
a) There are more Jewish people living in the USA than in Israel (!)
b) The population of Israel is HALF that of Greater London (!!)
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Re: The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

Postby American Dream » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:39 am

Searcher08 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:26 am wrote:Israel itself seems a different state of affairs, where it looks like the 'Settler'-types have much more influence in terms of the fractured nature of Israeli society; perhaps due to having deciding votes in constantly shifting coalitions?

This is my understanding, too.
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