What constitutes Misogyny?

[Iamwhomiam]

C2w?, in response to your question, I never knew of such a same sex rape while in high school.
I truly don't know that I have ever personally known anyone who had experienced a same-sex rape.
However, while in High School, perhaps during my junior year, a female friend held a party and was raped,
by some sixty of my classmates. They joked about which number they were.

[Canadian_watcher]

c2w,

I was also in college before I knew anyone that was raped. Like Plutonia I had friends whose father went at them from early ages though.
And of course I knew dozens of girls by the time I was 13 or 14 who'd had your typical run ins with pervert neighbours, uncles, schoolmates, teachers, etc.

Straight up old fashioned jumped in a parking lot or held down in the back of a car rape, though? I was older. But I do wonder if that is because in our younger years none of us girls really knew what to say or do about any of it. The shame is stickier than blood or semen.

edit.. same sex rape? I think I missed that part. I'll leave my post though.

[Plutonia]

Anyway. I agree with you that we're all in this together and should all be sympathetic to one another's issues. You might not have even been finger-pointing, ftm. Could be that I'm just sensitive.

Murky waters.

I hope that i haven't pointed any fingers. I haven't denied misogyny, just questioned identity politics and orthodox feminism - in that I will say that I'm am influenced by the Native women I've known, for whom both are 'what white people do" and having lots of children is a political act, an act of resistance against the System that would annihilate them.

Otherwise I'm just flailing around trying to find the softer edges of this issue, spaces of commonality perhaps, so that we can talk about it without killing each other.


PS: I'm sensitive too, just to other things.

[Plutonia]

My mother was my sexual abuser. My brother got it worse though. My father was a Residential School survivor, so disempowered he was unable to stand up to our mother and protect us. He died when he was 54. My mother is busy abusing my niece and nephew. Round and round we go.

I'm sorry that you and they have to live with that. Sympathy and hugs.

Sorry, missed this earlier.

Thanks Miss C. I don't know anybody who hasn't been abused in some way as a child, so I know I'm not alone. The hardest part has been not being able to protect my niece and nephew. *sigh*

In fact, I wonder if re-create hierarchies of power relations because we all experienced that in relation to our parents? Could that be the origin of misogyny?

[wallflower]

compared2what asks: "What grade were you in when the first same-sex peer in your class was raped, to the best of your knowledge? Not sexually assaulted, but raped."

I was in 8th grade and heard through hearsay of one of my classmates involved in a sexual assault with other boys against a female peer, one older boy was held primarily responsible. You specifically asked about rape not sexual assault. I'm not sure I really got the story straight and remember it correctly now, but my impression is that while the incident went to the legal system it was handled as some charge less than rape. But if the hearsay was close to the truth, what happened was gang rape. I understood it as rape then.

In the ninth grade I learned about the abduction and "molestation" of a cousin. I didn't get the details of what happened from her, except to know it was a big and traumatic event. In both cases the information was put into my mental file as something I must not talk about. Also as a boy I didn't have a mature or precocious idea about sex. It was a different era. Today sex is "talked" about often in very weird media messages. Kids in a sense "know" more about sex. Still I don't imagine 12, 13 and 14 year old girls and boys have mature ideas about sex today either.

Plutonia wrote:

So, I’d like to acknowledge wallflower, in the spirit of Mayan wisdom, for his thoughtful, sensitive, bridge-building communication efforts – and because he’s a menstruating woman too.

Am not! I do love what Maya Angelou says about refusing "to allow any man-made differences to separate me from any other human being." A while back during some swell of anti-Iran agitprop I went to Orkut and surfed through Iranian profiles there. What I found were pictures of kittens, birthday cakes, favorite nieces, best friends and pictures of newly weds with earnest looks. In short looking at Iranian profiles it was clear to me I was looking at people connected to others just like me. Differences are important, but not so important to erase empathy. Like Angelou I refuse to be separated from fellow people. They is me, and I'm a menstruating woman too.

In regards to two different options re privileged I'm not sure I understand.

Here's how I understood Jill at Feministe: The title is Fill the Gaps and she provides a quote as a preface:

In my world, the way I learned activism, if you see a gap you don’t stand around pointing at the gap and complaining that no one else has filled it for you yet. You FILL THE FUCKING GAP.

So as I understand it she's saying that calling out is a good thing but that the community around the Feminist blogosphere needs to push beyond merely calling out towards doing real work that needs doing.

In that post she also quoted Lindsy Beyerstein [url]if you’re reading any left-leaning website on the internet you’re never more than two clicks away from feminism.[/url] My connection with Feminist writing online is only sometimes clicking two clicks. But having done that sometimes I'm familiar with the sorts of "blow-ups and call-outs and fuck-ups and flounces and come-backs" she mentions. We fritter a lot of time arguing instead of building together.

What I understand, Plutonia, when you say you prefer this approach to privilege the reason is that it's important to recognize privilege then to take the next steps. In other words get on with it.

The secondoption has to do with how hard it is as a man to see privilege because like everyone else men in this society feel so put upon: You call my life privileged! I'm a bit slow in seeing it too. But on the other hand having followed online discussions for a while and as much as I'd like privileged not to be an issue, I'm convinced it's a fact Jack. Having been on both sides: totally clueless about privilege--at least the language in which privilege is discussed, and then becoming convinced about privilege as real and a recognition and understanding of it crucial to behavior which comports with empathy with people, I have sympathy for both sides, the clueless and the clued-in. Trying to get guys to listen, to get around to the beginning is frustrating and infuriating. So there's a custom of rather than to tell someone clueless to "fuck off" to send him to a well reasoned post about privilege. Sending someone to that link is a signal not to pile on.

I sort of pointed out that this doesn't seem to work. What I intended was an implicit expression of thanks to the posters here trying hard not so much to be heard but to get across that listening is important and here's the missing bit--privilege--which if you can grasp you can begin to hear. That what's seen as disrespect is actually an expression of respect for the posters here and the community which is RI.

So how I'm understanding Plutonia is the real work comes after privilege analysis--at least getting that your privilege has consequences you may not be aware of and on awareness some level is important for understanding other people. Yeah I agree with that. The second option re privilege was really saying it's hard to get people to see what they don't see. And I made a mistake in not saying plainly that I appreciate those trying so persistently to help all of us see.

Tell me what I'm missing if I'm not getting what you mean.

[compared2what?]

As I pointed out up thread, a large number of those men were raped as boys. 1 in 6 (at least in California) same stat (generally) as for women. It's in the culture alright

It's an absolute evil, irrespective of statistics, but that's not what those statistics say about rape prevalence for male children or about the culture, unless I read it wrong.



That study found prevalence rates by gender for some form of childhood sexual abuse of approximately 1 in 6 for boys and approximately 1 in 4 for girls. Almost all of that difference is attributable to significantly higher sexual-touching prevalence rates for girls, apart from which they're (roughly) within one percentage point of each other on every score except that 4 in ten male children were sexually abused by women, whereas female children are predominantly sexually abused by men.

A large number of people were raped as children, though. About 1 in 25.

Incidentally, contra Stephen Morgan, a lifetime prevalence rape rate for women and post-pubescent girls of 1 in 6 is not just some wild rumor that arose from a single study and has been circulating all over the internet ever since. The vast majority of major studies have consistently found it to be somewhere in the 15-to-20 percent range for years and years and years. Decades, in fact.

It's an apples and oranges comparison anyway, though. The 1 in 6 figure for women is the average lifetime prevalence rate for all women in aggregate from all walks of life, from strippers to attorneys. IOW: If you're a woman, there's approximately a 1 in 6 chance that you'll be raped once before you die no matter who you are or what you do, on average. Whereas, although (obviously) any child might be sexually abused, some children are at much higher risk for it than others, per a number of co-occurring familial-dysfunction factors.

It's not very politically correct to say so. But since it does potentially have some utility from a prevention perspective, I'm saying it anyway.

[wallflower]

Opps I missed the gist of compared2what's question. I was out of school by the time I knew of a same sex rape.

I got picked out early as gay. So the one of the perpetrators in the hearsay I heard about rape would harass me about "corn holing." At the time the thought of anal + sex seemed unthinkable as sexual intimacy and could only think of it as violence.

[Plutonia]

So how I'm understanding Plutonia is the real work comes after privilege analysis--at least getting that your privilege has consequences you may not be aware of and on awareness some level is important for understanding other people. Yeah I agree with that. The second option re privilege was really saying it's hard to get people to see what they don't see. And I made a mistake in not saying plainly that I appreciate those trying so persistently to help all of us see.

Tell me what I'm missing if I'm not getting what you mean.

Yes and the other side, too. I've seen too many well intentioned people walk away from some action or other because of being verbally assaulted or just repeatedly sneered at for their privilege. Myself included, because Jeebus knows it's not easy to be that guy or gal.

It's only a barrier if we insist on it. Let's get on with it.

[Project Willow]

Plutonia, about your criticism of identity politics, while I don't agree with you, I'm not certain of the usefulness of getting into a long exchange over it. I'll just say that I watched the derisive term take hold and then wreak its havoc. What I saw was power looking to exploit any possible weakness within opposition forces, and the criticisms don't hold up. Multiculturalists, feminists did not exclude class issues. I also don't agree that ignoring one group's issues in favor of another set that might be perceived as broader or more encompassing is the answer.

As for orthodoxy, unlike some feminists, I don't frame the power dynamics of my abuse experiences only in terms of patriarchy. However, that men and boys are also abused neither excuses nor erases the power imbalance between the sexes and the violence and oppression that women suffer solely for being female.

Those are a few of my thoughts after reading your exchanges with Jack and barracuda.

I too am sorry you experienced abuse. I also have not been able to save nieces or grand nephews although I did do the only thing I could, which was protest.

.......................

What grade were you in when the first same-sex peer in your class was raped, to the best of your knowledge? Not sexually assaulted, but raped.

What grade are you in when you're 12?

It was always there, but not, just as you described.

I was that peer for other girls, much earlier, sometimes I would just tell, in class, or something (yeah, I was really popular). Then at around age 8 or 9 a neighborhood teenager bragged. Twenty years later I was interviewed for a TV doc. about sex abuse and the reporter verified my story by contacting him.

[compared2what?]

edit.. same sex rape? I think I missed that part. I'll leave my post though.

No, not same-sex rape, the rape of a same-sex peer. I probably wasn't as clear as I might have been.

The question addressed to men was:

What grade were you in when the first guy your age that you knew was raped?

The question addressed to women was:

What grade were you in when the first girl your age that you knew was raped?
______________________

My point was that virtually all girls and women know that girls and women like them get raped by the time they're 20 at the absolute latest, via direct experience. And that's whether they're the statistically unlucky 1-in-6, or just one of the other five, either at that point or later.

Because even if it stopped there, which it doesn't for most, it seemed to me that most people would be able to understand how that sends a very strong message about what it means to be a girl. For virtually all men and boys, on the other hand, rape happens at home or in prison, when it does happen.

I don't know. I don't think I've ever had a conversation about rape culture that didn't end up in some version of one of the statistical throw-downs that have occurred here, which more or less boils down to saying:

"Nuh-uh, women are not raped by men often enough to justify saying it's a rape culture, and what's more, you're labeling men who are wholly innocent of all matters connected to rape as, at best, largely a bunch of potential fucking rapists when you say otherwise. Take it back! Am not! Have not! Would never!"

The defensive part of that is natural and understandable as a reflexive response, imo. But if it never gets any further than that, it's not just women who are invalidating their own experience, per the results of the highly unscientific survey so far, it turns out. Because it seems like everyone (except Stephen Morgan) knows perfectly well that girls and women get raped by the time they're twenty, at the absolute latest.

That's what I would have figured, since it's not like the rapes I knew about in high school or later were known only to girls. The whole school or post-school mixed-gender community knew about them.

I've never really understood why it was such a perennially contested issue, to be honest. Girls and women get raped, that's just part of the ordinary background noise of life for everyone. Nobody needs statistical studies to know that. Rape culture, QED.

Or so I hope, anyway. Because my aim is not simply to persuade people that there is one, for the sheer thrill of the conquest. For one thing, I'm pretty sure that everyone knows it already, on some level. In which case, it can't possibly be good for them to accommodate that knowledge by repressing it. And in all likelihood, it's bad for them, boys and girls alike.

So, you know. I kind of hope that knowing and calling a rape culture what it is will enable them to think about how that might be affecting their views of themselves, others, and the world, for better or for worse. An unexamined life, and so forth.
_____________

ON EDIT: wallflower reminds me that I am guilty of being heteronormative. I'm going to try to keep more of an eye on that.

[Plutonia]

Plutonia, about your criticism of identity politics, while I don't agree with you, I'm not certain of the usefulness of getting into a long exchange over it. I'll just say that I watched the derisive term take hold and then wreak its havoc. What I saw was power looking to exploit any possible weakness within opposition forces, and the criticisms don't hold up. Multiculturalists, feminists did not exclude class issues. I also don't agree that ignoring one group's issues in favor of another set that might be perceived as broader or more encompassing is the answer.

I used the word "divisive" actually, which i guess you heard as "derisive."

Women of colour criticized feminism fiercely at one time. It turned out that feminist theory was robust enough that it gained from the criticism rather than lost. I go for examination and exploration. Life is big.

And I have seen Identity Politics divide a group and render it inoperable. But we can agree to disagree.

As for orthodoxy, unlike some feminists, I don't frame the power dynamics of my abuse experiences only in terms of patriarchy. However, that men and boys are also abused neither excuses nor erases the power imbalance between the sexes and the violence and oppression that women suffer solely for being female.

I see it all of a piece. Abused children grow up and re-enact their abuse as adults. Distortions in the psyche caused by abuse get projected onto the world and become the abusive institutions within which we live. If you want to end violence against women, protect children from abuse. Mysogyny (and Misandry) I see as a symptom rather than a cause.

I too am sorry you experienced abuse.

And you.

[compared2what?]

I believe everything I believe "for all practical purposes". I apply my beliefs to my daily life. My religion, my political outlook, have shaped the way I interact with the world.

You have that luxury, because you live in a world that is, for all practical purposes, androcentric, and you are a man. I, on the other hand, have knowledge and experience of a reality that would serve no purpose that was practical in my daily life when applied directly to it in a pure, unadapted and untranslated form, even if I were capable of conjuring some systematic method of doing so out of the clear blue air, which I'm not. I don't entirely belong here, as I naturally occur. That has its pros and cons, truth be told. But it would be nice to have the option of just relaxing every once in a way, while operating in the practical sphere. Or so I imagine.

I believe, although I cannot know, that this is the female condition for all females, in one way or another.

That said, I too live by my principles to the fullest of my ability to do so.

I don't think any actions based on a sudden belief that the half of the race to which I belong is made up of deviant sex beasts would be possible.

None that were practical, certainly, given that such a belief could only be premised in insane fantasies of a most unwholesome nature, whether you were struck by it suddenly or it just sorta crept up on you over the fullness of time.

IOW: Nobody believes or has asserted that. No. I'm sorry, but he most definitely did not. Read it again.

[Stephen Morgan]

Well, we can't all live in the ghetto with armed crack dealers pistol whipping their ho's on every corner.

Is this where I'm supposed to tell Stephen he's out of line?

I thought he was drily commenting on the difference between US and rural UK crime stats? I thought he lived "Where Men are Men, and Sheep are Nervous"?

I live near the border between Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire, so on one side we have derelict coal-fields, smack heads and the UK capital of crack-fuelled ho-bashing (Nottingham). On the other we have heavily armed inbred farmers laying traps for gypsies (like Tony Martin). In fact the kid Tony Martin caught in his web and blew away was an acquaintance of an acquaintance of mine. I live in between, in a medium sized town with a medium sized drug problem and some medium sized crime-riddled council estates.

[Stephen Morgan]

So, I’d like to acknowledge wallflower, in the spirit of Mayan wisdom, for his thoughtful, sensitive, bridge-building communication efforts – and because he’s a menstruating woman too.

Come on, he has "periods", they coincide with the phases of the moon, haven't you worked it out yet? He's not a menstruating women, he's a werewolf.

[compared2what?]

Plutonia, about your criticism of identity politics, while I don't agree with you, I'm not certain of the usefulness of getting into a long exchange over it. I'll just say that I watched the derisive term take hold and then wreak its havoc. What I saw was power looking to exploit any possible weakness within opposition forces, and the criticisms don't hold up. Multiculturalists, feminists did not exclude class issues. I also don't agree that ignoring one group's issues in favor of another set that might be perceived as broader or more encompassing is the answer.

I used the word "divisive" actually, which i guess you heard as "derisive."

Women of colour criticized feminism fiercely at one time. It turned out that feminist theory was robust enough that it gained from the criticism rather than lost. I go for examination and exploration. Life is big.

Neither feminism nor identity politics provide a universal framework for solving all ills, even at their best, you need other politics, too. They can be and often are divisive, but I don't think they have to be, of a necessity. IOW: I don't think they're inherently divisive. There are classes of people who are accorded less personhood on a per capita basis by society as a whole than others. In some cases -- Native Americans, prisoners, the white underclass -- it comes close enough to not according them any at all as makes no difference, really.

All people are not literally created equal in every regard, but the personhood of all is equally valuable and should be socially and politically accommodated as such would, I guess, be my baseline position. Feminism and identity politics are both among the necessary means to that end, imo. But that doesn't make either the very best and principle means to every end at every single stage of the game, obviously. They're potentially very useful for some things, and I wouldn't want to throw them out wholesale just because they've been abused or coopted by jerks and fools in the past.

And I have seen Identity Politics divide a group and render it inoperable. But we can agree to disagree.

We can, but I don't think that we do in any very significant way, apart from semantically. I'm not so sure you and Willow have any very great differences, either, come to that.

I see it all of a piece. Abused children grow up and re-enact their abuse as adults. Distortions in the psyche caused by abuse get projected onto the world and become the abusive institutions within which we live. If you want to end violence against women, protect children from abuse. Mysogyny (and Misandry) I see as a symptom rather than a cause.

I agree, except that I'm not sure there is such a thing as institutionalized misandry that couldn't more productively be described as a systematic injustice or oppression against the specific class of male persons it affects -- eg, male prison inmates, male soldiers, and so forth.
.
But it is all of a piece, ultimately. Or maybe "optimally," I'm not sure. In my view, some parts of it have to be addressed piecemeal in order to make it whole. But if someone else has a better idea, I'd be thrilled to let that go, quite frankly.