What constitutes Misogyny?

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby barracuda » Sun May 08, 2011 8:01 pm

Plutonia wrote:...it could be argued that your experience constitutes an example of mimetic violence re Rene Girard’s theory of mimetic desire, rather than of misogyny, in which case how or even that the news media reported the first incidents, could make them culpable, as is in the case of copy-cat suicides (the Werther Effect.)


I've always compared the incident to the dynamic of the Atlanta child murders. In other words, there was certainly a copycat effect, but the intense underlying prejudices of race-hatred in Atlanta and women-hatred in San Jose created the societal pressures which permitted the event to proceed, and in some sense, encouraged it. In other words, these sprees demonstrate the highest manifestations of their characteristic conflicts and flower out of those manifestations, and rather than being forced into being via a morally neutral mechanism, so that the model for the desire to rape and kill must be rather consciously heeded, if not actually sought out.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Plutonia » Sun May 08, 2011 8:54 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Plutonia wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
This application of this theory casts women as objects. Seeing females as objects - whether of desire or derision is an attitude rooted in misogyny. The media are certainly not as culpable as the rapists, unless you are arguing that upon hearing of a rape many men are propelled into a state of arousal and 'mimetic desire' so strong that they cannot resist it.


Hamstrung by language. Sorry. I should perhaps have been clearer.

I'm using the word "object" in the psychological sense, not in the "thing" sense.

And "desire" in the larger sense, not just sexual um avarice, shall we say. Philosophically, what we desire ultimately, is the wholeness that we imagine can be conferred to us by the "magic" object that has "captured" our desire, whether that's a car, fame or a woman (or man.) This is pure projection, meaning what we see in the object, is what we are unconscious of within ourselves. This is the drama of Narcissus.


Yes, I see the difficulty here with the language - it is making it tricky. However I think it is clear that we can't just play cat and mouse with it - I see what you are saying but see past it into what I am trying to say, too, which is that regardless of this theory rape does cast women as objects. Whether you add another layer of meaning/analysis to that doesn't change that pivotal aspect of rape.
No cats or mice intended, playing or otherwise.

Well, don't women inspire desire, both sexually and in the psychological sense of "object?"

Canadian_watcher wrote:Narcissus wanted his own reflection (the object of his desire was himself).
Yet he mistook himself for someone else. He didn’t recognize his predicament. That’s the essence of projection.

Canadian_watcher wrote:Rapists want to overpower and humiliate a woman/women (and sometimes men) - the ultimate in objectification. Therefore the object (played by a woman in the case of rape) is objectification. To my way of thinking, objectification = hate.
Which connotes an underlying experience of powerlessness and what… personification? (I’ll have to think about that more in order to unpack it- personification.) I would argue that they overpower and humiliate as an effect of their violent need to merge with their projection, which is to say, become self-aware, self-integrated, whole. Isn’t it common for rapists to say that their victims deserved it or were asking for it? To own the projection they would have to see that they feel that they themselves deserve to be raped/over-powered/humiliated. Which of course, they are likely to have been. In any case, what I’m describing here is a just the fertile ground in which the mimetic contagion takes root.

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Plutonia wrote:And is it so strange that if journalists are already held accountable for triggering copycat suicides, that should also be held to account for other forms of copycat violence. There has been a vigorous discussion of the role of the media in triggering the wave of revolutionary fervor in the Middle East. Why exempt sexual violence from a similar discussion?


I'm not trying to exempt it at all, I just think that it is ridiculous to say that the media - by reporting rapes - causes more rape. One could argue but never prove that reporting of rapes prevents more rape.
And this is just what has been done in the case of suicide and for that very reason.

Girard points to Plato’s prohibition against certain forms of representation as an example of a civilizing dictate which says, if you don’t want more of X forms of violence, don’t represent X, so it's perhaps not a new idea.

Which brings to mind the idea of TPTB using the MSM to socially engineer us, fodder for Rigorous Intuitors - so why the care taken around the reportage of suicide and not other forms of violence?

Canadian_watcher wrote: I think the difference between the middle eastern revolutionary fervour being partly a product of the media and increased rape being partly a product of the media is that they are reporting on two very different sets of motivations. One is hate and one is hope. One might well get caught up in a wave of violence, to be sure - we witness revolutions become violent at times - or riots after winning soccer games, etc.. Another difference though is that rape is a solitary crime, usually, and revolutions are almost never a one-man-show.
Well, what are the motivations to emulate Beyonce, as was done by that infant and all those people in those videos. If you asked, you’d probably get answers like for fun, cause I like it/her but that doesn’t really account for it. If you see what I mean? There is an element of that behavior which is inexplicable, which is why I bothered to find and post them. (Except in the case of the baby, of course, but that is disturbing for a different reason.)
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby barracuda » Sun May 08, 2011 9:40 pm

Plutonia wrote: Well, what are the motivations to emulate Beyonce, as was done by that infant and all those people in those videos. If you asked, you’d probably get answers like for fun, cause I like it/her but that doesn’t really account for it. If you see what I mean? There is an element of that behavior which is inexplicable, which is why I bothered to find and post them. (Except in the case of the baby, of course, but that is disturbing for a different reason.)


Interesting that you chose "Single Ladies", a song that is an embodiment of a certain flavor of female empowerment, the power of which I consider to be a leading cause of the various permutations and imitations. (Aside from the baby, which is a special case, in that some babies will dance to any catchy, hooky tune, and rightly so.) I mean, you could have just as easily found a thousand imitations and parodies of Travolta's "You Should Be Dancing" scene, or any number of other, equally popular song+dance moments from the last thirty years. I think the "why" of the thing is obvious, if you are a person who loves to dance, though. Some people just got the music in 'em.

But the male parodies of "Single Ladies", starting with the Timberlake version (which really got the male imitations rolling), are clearly a reflexive response to the themes of the song, and attempts, consciously or not, to coopt and integrate the strength of that female empowerment, often in a mocking fashion. There's nothing about the song or video per se which is inherently ridiculous, except, maybe, that.

We had a thread on it a while ago which was a riot.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Plutonia » Sun May 08, 2011 10:07 pm

barracuda wrote:
Plutonia wrote:...it could be argued that your experience constitutes an example of mimetic violence re Rene Girard’s theory of mimetic desire, rather than of misogyny, in which case how or even that the news media reported the first incidents, could make them culpable, as is in the case of copy-cat suicides (the Werther Effect.)


I've always compared the incident to the dynamic of the Atlanta child murders. In other words, there was certainly a copycat effect, but the intense underlying prejudices of race-hatred in Atlanta and women-hatred in San Jose created the societal pressures which permitted the event to proceed, and in some sense, encouraged it.
Certainly.

Sorry, I have to read into what you are saying here. The []'s are my interjections:
barracuda wrote:In other words, these sprees demonstrate the highest manifestations of their characteristic conflicts [racism in Atlanta and misogyny in San Jose] and flower out of those manifestations,[the uninhibited expression racist opinions, for example] and rather than being forced into being via a morally neutral mechanism, [news media] so that the model for the desire to rape and kill must be rather consciously heeded [chosen to act upon] if not actually sought out.
Yes, I see your point, though I question the moral neutrality of the news media and the idea of choice is problematic too, but I get what you are saying.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun May 08, 2011 10:18 pm

Plutonia wrote:Well, don't women inspire desire, both sexually and in the psychological sense of "object?"


I'm not talking about a psychological sense, but I understand that you are. We are getting hung up on this. I understand the psychological use of the term "object" is applied to anything that the subject is focused on. This sense is more akin to the meaning of the word "object' as a part of speech. I am talking about the real world implication of the word 'object' - woman not as being, but as object.

To answer your question - in a psychological sense it can be analysed that way. In a real world sense I personally have never experienced my feeling of attraction to a person as being a feeling of wanting to posses or control an object. When we are talking about rape, my guess is that the men who perpetrate it do see the woman as an object. Not a being worth anything - but a thing.

Plutonia wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:Rapists want to overpower and humiliate a woman/women (and sometimes men) - the ultimate in objectification. Therefore the object (played by a woman in the case of rape) is objectification. To my way of thinking, objectification = hate.
Which connotes an underlying experience of powerlessness and what… personification? (I’ll have to think about that more in order to unpack it- personification.) I would argue that they overpower and humiliate as an effect of their violent need to merge with their projection, which is to say, become self-aware, self-integrated, whole. Isn’t it common for rapists to say that their victims deserved it or were asking for it? To own the projection they would have to see that they feel that they themselves deserve to be raped/over-powered/humiliated. Which of course, they are likely to have been. In any case, what I’m describing here is a just the fertile ground in which the mimetic contagion takes root.


Maybe. But if this is a projection of their self-loathing why don't more rapists target other men?

Plutonia wrote:Which brings to mind the idea of TPTB using the MSM to socially engineer us, fodder for Rigorous Intuitors - so why the care taken around the reportage of suicide and not other forms of violence?


Why the care?
a. I'm not sure that this care exists
b. Pehaps because suicides are not 'newsy.' No one is under threat from a suicide... news loves threats.
c. The news media does not habitually report incidents of rape and sexual assault. I know they *do* report them, just as they report the occasional suicide but if they reported all of them the news would be on all day with about ten minutes left for the weather. That is this would be the case if more women reported.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Plutonia » Sun May 08, 2011 10:33 pm

barracuda wrote:Interesting that you chose "Single Ladies", a song that is an embodiment of a certain flavor of female empowerment, the power of which I consider to be a leading cause of the various permutations and imitations.
You mean that she, as an empowered woman, refers to herself as an "it" in the lyric?

barracuda wrote:I mean, you could have just as easily found a thousand imitations and parodies of Travolta's "You Should Be Dancing" scene, or any number of other, equally popular song+dance moments from the last thirty years.
Well I could have used the Star Wars Kid too, and used him to talk about scapegoating behavior in the way that his peers persecuted him and excised him from their "group." But I remembered the baby dancing and was stunned when I saw all the copycat videos.

barracuda wrote:I think the "why" of the thing is obvious, if you are a person who loves to dance, though. Some people just got the music in 'em.
But that doesn't explain the leotards or the flash mob.

barracuda wrote:But the male parodies of "Single Ladies", starting with the Timberlake version (which really got the male imitations rolling), are clearly a reflexive response to the themes of the song, and attempts, consciously or not, to coopt and integrate the strength of that female empowerment, often in a mocking fashion.
This is interesting. mimetic empowerment?

barracuda wrote:There's nothing about the song or video per se which is inherently ridiculous, except, maybe, that.
Well, I don't get exposed to pop culture much. Is that normal behavior? *nerd* here.

barracuda wrote:We had a thread on it a while ago which was a riot.
I'll check it out, thx.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Plutonia » Sun May 08, 2011 10:42 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:Maybe. But if this is a projection of their self-loathing why don't more rapists target other men?
Perhaps they do.

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Plutonia wrote:Which brings to mind the idea of TPTB using the MSM to socially engineer us, fodder for Rigorous Intuitors - so why the care taken around the reportage of suicide and not other forms of violence?


Why the care?
a. I'm not sure that this care exists
b. Pehaps because suicides are not 'newsy.' No one is under threat from a suicide... news loves threats.
c. The news media does not habitually report incidents of rape and sexual assault. I know they *do* report them, just as they report the occasional suicide but if they reported all of them the news would be on all day with about ten minutes left for the weather. That is this would be the case if more women reported.
Oh, I see you missed my link:

Copycat suicide
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A copycat suicide is defined as an emulation of another suicide that the person attempting suicide knows about either from local knowledge or due to accounts or depictions of the original suicide on television and in other media.

The massive wave of emulation suicides after a widely publicized suicide is known as the Werther effect, following Goethe's novel The Sorrows of Young Werther.[1]

The well-known suicide serves as a model, in the absence of protective factors, for the next suicide. This is referred to as suicide contagion.[2] They occasionally spread through a school system, through a community, or in terms of a celebrity suicide wave, nationally. This is called a suicide cluster.[2] Suicide clusters are caused by the social learning of suicide related behaviors, or "copycat suicides". Point clusters are clusters of suicides in both time and space, and have been linked to direct social learning from nearby individuals[3]. Mass clusters are clusters of suicides in time but not space, and have been linked to the broadcasting of information concerning celebrity suicides via the mass media[4] Examples of celebrities whose suicides have inspired suicide clusters include the Japanese musicians Yukiko Okada and Hide.

...

The Werther effect not only predicts an increase in suicide, but the majority of the suicides will take place in the same or a similar way as the one publicized. The more similar the person in the publicized suicide is to the people exposed to the information about it, the more likely the age group or demographic is to commit suicide. The increase generally happens only in areas where the suicide story was highly publicized [5] . Upon learning of someone else's suicide, many people decide that action is appropriate for them as well, especially if the publicized suicide was of someone in a similar situation as them.

Publishing the means of suicides, romanticized and sensationalized reporting, particularly about celebrities, suggestions that there is an epidemic, glorifying the deceased and simplifying the reasons all lead to increases in the suicide rate. People may see suicide as a glamorous ending — with youth getting a lot of attention, lots of sympathy, lots of national concern that they never got in life (Guard, Anara). The second possible factor is that vulnerable youth may feel like, "If they couldn't cut it, neither can I" [8] . Increased rate of suicides has been shown to occur up to ten days after a television report.[9] Studies in Japan[10] and Germany[11] have replicated findings of an imitative effect. Etzersdorfer et al.[12] in an Austrian study showed a strong correlation between the number of papers distributed in various areas and the number of subsequent firearm suicides in each area after a related media report. Higher rates of copycat suicides have been found in those with similarities in race,[10] age, and gender[13] to the victim in the original report. Stack[14] analyzed the results from 42 studies and found that those measuring the effect of a celebrity suicide story were 14.3 times more likely to find a copycat effect than studies that did not. Studies based on a real as opposed to fictional story were 4.03 times more likely to uncover a copycat effect and research based on televised stories was 82% less likely to report a copycat effect than research based on newspapers. Other scholars have been less certain about whether copycat suicides truly happen or are selectively hyped. For instance, fears of a suicide wave following the death of Kurt Cobain never materialized in an actual increase in suicides.[15] Similarly the researcher Gerard Sullivan has critiqued research on copycat suicides, suggesting that data analyses have been selective and misleading, and that the evidence for copycat suicides are much less consistent than suggested by some researchers.[16]

The suicide of Mohamed Bouazizi, a Tunisian street vendor who set himself on fire on December 17, 2010, in protest of the confiscation of his wares and the harassment and humiliation that was allegedly inflicted on him by a municipal official and her aides, became the catalyst for the Tunisian Revolution, that culminated with the end of then-President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali 23 year old regime. The success of the Tunisian protests sparked protests in several other Arab countries, including several men who emulated Bouazizi's act, in an attempt to bring an end to autocratic governments. Those men and Bouazizi are hailed by some Arab commentators as "heroic martyrs of a new Middle Eastern revolution."[17]

Many people interviewed after the suicide of a relative or friend have a tendency to simplify the issues; their grief can lead to their minimizing or ignoring significant factors. Studies show a high incidence of psychiatric disorders in suicide victims at the time of their death with the total figure ranging from 98%[18] to 87.3%[19] with mood disorders and substance abuse being the two most common. These are often undiagnosed or untreated and treatment can result in reductions in the suicide rate. Reports that minimize the impact of psychiatric disorders contribute to copycat suicides whereas reports that mention this factor and provide help-line contact numbers and advice for where sufferers may gain assistance can reduce suicides.
[edit] Social proof model

An alternate model to explain copycat suicide, called "social proof" by Cialdini,[20] goes beyond the theories of glorification and simplification of reasons to look at why copycat suicides are so similar, demographically and in actual methods, to the original publicized suicide. In the social proof model, people imitate those who seem similar, despite or even because of societal disapproval. This model is important because it has nearly opposite ramifications for what the media ought to do about the copycat suicide effect than the standard model does.[citation needed] To deal with this problem, Alex Mesoudi of Queen Mary University, London, developed a computer model of a community of 1000 people, to examine how copycat suicides occur. These were divided into 100 groups of 10, in a model designed to represent different levels of social organization, such as schools or hospitals within a town or state. Mesoudi then circulated the simulation through 100 generations. He found the simulated people acted just as sociologists' theory predicted.They were more likely to commit suicide in clusters, either because they had learned this trait from their friends, or because suicidal people are more likely to be like one another [21] .


[edit] Journalism codes

Various countries have national journalism codes which range from one extreme of, "Suicide and attempted suicide should in general never be given any mention" (Norway) to a more moderate, "In cases of suicide, publishing or broadcasting information in an exaggerated way that goes beyond normal dimensions of reporting with the purpose of influencing readers or spectators should not occur. The study's author, University of London psychologist Alex Mesoudi, recommends reporters to follow the sort of guidelines the World Health Organization and others endorse for coverage of any suicide: Use extreme restraint in covering these deaths — keep the word "suicide" out of the headline, don't romanticize the death, and limit the number of stories[22] .Photography, pictures, visual images or film depicting such cases should not be made public" (Turkey)[23] Many countries do not have national codes but do have in-house guidelines along similar lines. In the US there are no industrywide standards and a survey of inhouse guides of 16 US daily newspapers showed that only three mentioned the word suicide and none gave guidelines about publishing the method of suicide. Craig Branson, online director of the American Society of News Editors (ASNE), has been quoted as saying, "Industry codes are very generic and totally voluntary. Most ethical decisions are left to individual editors at individual papers. The industry would fight any attempt to create more specific rules or standards, and editors would no doubt ignore them."[23] Guidelines on the reporting of suicides in Ireland were introduced recently which attempt to remove any positive connotations the act might have (e.g. using the term "completed" rather than "successful" when describing a suicide attempt which resulted in a death).[citation needed]
[edit] Journalist training

Australia is one of the few countries where there is a concerted effort to teach journalism students about this subject. The Mindframe national media initiative[24] followed an ambivalent response by the Australian Press Council to an earlier media resource kit issued by Suicide Prevention Australia and the Australian Institute for Suicide Research and Prevention. The UK-based media ethics charity MediaWise provides training for journalists on reporting suicide related issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun May 08, 2011 10:56 pm

Plutonia wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:Maybe. But if this is a projection of their self-loathing why don't more rapists target other men?
Perhaps they do.


Perhaps they don't.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Plutonia » Sun May 08, 2011 11:06 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Plutonia wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:Maybe. But if this is a projection of their self-loathing why don't more rapists target other men?
Perhaps they do.


Perhaps they don't.
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/prison/report7.html#_1_44
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby barracuda » Sun May 08, 2011 11:06 pm

Plutonia wrote:You mean that she, as an empowered woman, refers to herself as an "it" in the lyric?


Well, you've got to make some allowances for lyrical scansion in the chorus, as "Cuz if you liked me then you should have put a ring on me", or "on her" doesn't really have the flow that "it" provides when paired it the preceeding "on", which comes out as "onit". Maybe "on'er" would have worked too, but once a record hits double platinum, it's safe to say somebody did something right, and avoid too much second-gessing about the thing.

But I'm willing to suspend judgement on the subject/object issue once I get to the second verse:

    I got gloss on my lips, a man on my hips
    hold me tighter than my Dereon jeans
    acting up, drink in my cup
    I couldnt care less what you think
    I need no permission, did I mention
    Dont pay him any attention
    Cuz you had your turn
    But now you gonna learn
    What it really feels like to miss me


...such that it is, it is something.

Well, I don't get exposed to pop culture much. Is that normal behavior?


I think so. Perfectly healthy, in a way. As you said, it is fun.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby compared2what? » Mon May 09, 2011 3:03 am

Plutonia wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
Plutonia wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:Maybe. But if this is a projection of their self-loathing why don't more rapists target other men?
Perhaps they do.


Perhaps they don't.
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/prison/report7.html#_1_44


I would say that perhaps to the extent that they do, it's not a meaningful comparison under the terms as you've defined them -- ie, perhaps typically representative of the rapist's projected self-loathing -- except that there's no "perhaps" about it.

Imprisoned people don't act freely as themselves, they act as prisoners. And that's prison for ya. I mean, the loss of individual free personhood is just one of the many things that make prison (unlike poverty) inarguably a living hell, obviously. But it's definitely among the top two or three that virtually all prisoners tend to list as the most hellish ones. Rape, not so much. It happens, but someone who gets brutalized in prison gets brutalized all the time and in lots of very violent ways. The aim is to avoid being that person more than it is to avoid rape, by and large. Insurance against it is pretty much what prison gangs are for. Besides making whatever profit there is to make.

Anyway. Neither acts of rape, nor sex, nor violence in prison can really be regarded as having the same (or even comparable) significance wrt the psychology of the perp as they would in a free-range context. For example, most prisoners serving long sentences in the prime of life have sex lives while there. And a lot of them have sexual relationships. But if they were straight when they went in, they'll still be straight when they get out. As far as habitual prisoners are concerned, just cause you're having a five-year affair with a gay tranny doesn't mean you're not straight. It's not like regular reality barely at all.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Stephen Morgan » Mon May 09, 2011 3:14 am

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Plutonia wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:Maybe. But if this is a projection of their self-loathing why don't more rapists target other men?
Perhaps they do.


Perhaps they don't.


If they don't then I would expect it to be because most men would rather have sex with women. All violent crimes other than sexual assaults are far more commonly directed against men, when the same phenomenon targets women it is merely more likely to take on sexual overtones because men are more likely to want to fuck 'em. It's not like rape is the only violent crime which may involve a degree of "objectification", in the sense of the disregard for the personhood of the victim.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Stephen Morgan » Mon May 09, 2011 3:22 am

Plutonia wrote:
I'm not sure about this. The idea that women are considered inherently more valuable by biology, doesn't have historical evidence to support it. Something biological ought to be pan-cultural, but the "women and children first" mentality originates in the nineteenth century, as does the very phrase itself. And men being the biggest winners, as they tend to carry their associated women up with them, is an incomplete representation of reality.
I think his analysis goes beyond the “women and children first” moral affectation of the Victorians. I say affectation because of the brutal exploitation by Victorian Industrialists of women and children (and men,) whether in the colonies or at home.


But mostly men, the Victorian period saw the beginning of special measures to protect women and children, the first laws against child labour, the ban on women working underground in coal mines, and so on.

But I don’t understand what you are saying here: “And men being the biggest winners, as they tend to carry their associated women up with them, is an incomplete representation of reality.”


I believe the article is proposing that society is based on the competition between men, with some being winners and most losers. This could be misinterpreted as an economic argument implying that some men are winning over women rather than just men, whereas in fact men who go to the top carry wives with them, more often than not.


The essence of how culture uses men depends on a basic social insecurity. This insecurity is in fact social, existential, and biological. Built into the male role is the danger of not being good enough to be accepted and respected and even the danger of not being able to do well enough to create offspring.
The basic social insecurity of manhood is stressful for the men, and it is hardly surprising that so many men crack up or do evil or heroic things or die younger than women. But that insecurity is useful and productive for the culture, the system.


This, the basic insecurity and so on, is one of those things I see it as our duty to transcend...
I agree and as an outsider (which I think everyone has experience in one way or another, of one time or another), I ascribe that basic insecurity to a couple of things; the first being the anxiety of existing outside the morphogenetic field of the collective when survival generally depends on inclusion; the second being the sub-rational policing that goes on within the collective. Take bullying, for example. If we are predisposed to imitating each other, than a “weak” or “deviant” member may jeopardize the survival of the whole group, scapegoating that member removes the threat and unifies the group. Being different is dangerous and I doubt that any of us are not viscerally attuned to that.


I think bullies are more likely to be weak and deviant members. Compensating and that.

I think Jung mapped the route to transcendence for us with his theories of Individuation, but that's me:

Individuation is the process of integrating the conscious with the unconscious, for the purpose of self-actualization.
...


Yes, he had some interesting ideas. Not sure about his methods, but similar aims.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Stephen Morgan » Mon May 09, 2011 3:24 am

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Plutonia wrote:Which makes it possible to imagine that the copycat rapists received and acted out the impulse to rape from the original rapist, as an alternative to "men are rapists." In other words, not inherent but rather susceptible to.


So how do we explain the fact that many if not most crimes take place in isolation in time/geography? One bank robbery in an area. One B&E. One murder? ... Or if not ONE each of these, a few perpetrated by the same person?


Most crimes are normal crimes, done by normal and probably habitual criminals, theft for money, kill for vengeance, &c.. Nonetheless crimes which get media coverage often bring about a spate of copycat crimes, as is well known in school-shootings, suicides, and the Bobbit case.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby compared2what? » Mon May 09, 2011 3:33 am

Plutonia wrote:But it could be argued that your experience constitutes an example of mimetic violence re Rene Girard’s theory of mimetic desire, rather than of misogyny, in which case how or even that the news media reported the first incidents, could make them culpable, as is in the case of copy-cat suicides (the Werther Effect.)


Committing suicide and committing rape are another two things that aren't meaningfully comparable. Except that the media isn't culpable for any instance of either that I've ever heard of, they have nothing in common at all, in fact.

Also, wrt the Werther Effect: It doesn't actually inculpate the messenger, per se. No matter who spreads it or how it's spread, when information circulates about certain kinds of suicide, similar suicides and/or suicide attempts follow.

That's not a media thing, it's a social thing.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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