Timothy Leary and Parapolitics

[Gouda]

Joe, I second Hellpop's and $cam's motion. (Oddest sentence I write this month, I'm sure.)

Maybe a new thread?

[Joe Hillshoist]

Ok Its not a spectacular story, pretty ugly and banal really.

If you have any illusions about Nick Cave that are fragile and may be broken you may wanna skip this post.

I'd also like to point out that this is a second hand story, so I can't really verify it. I wasn't there

Melbourne's a small town really. I actually has the athletics coach from Cave's School caufield grammer chasing for me years to take up an athletic scholarship to the school.

not that many fast runners in Melbourne, they will take anybody.

The guy who told me this story hated Nick Cave. Violently, well passionately. he would crack the shits and leave if someone put Nick Cave on, and once even lost it cos he came to see me at a club I was working in when Nick Cave was playing.

I eventually managed to get the story out of him.

I used to get up to a bit of no good in those days and this guy and I had a bit of a business relationship.

as well as a friendship.

One night he finally told me of a woman he knew who owed Nick cave about 3 gran. Not heaps of cash, but enough to cause probs, and it was her and her husband/partner. Not just her.

She was pregnant when ole Nick finally lost patience and had the crap beaten out of them.

She miscarried as a result.

Its not a great story or anything.

Just a tawdry sad one really.

My friend was always weird about that story, would get real shitty if I ever pushed the details and even smashed all the mirrors in the house one time.

I only pushed him for details once or twice but he would never open up, and it wasn't worth the cost to our relationshhip.

there are a lot of stories like that in the world.

the thing that convinced me was the real vehemence he had, he really hated Nick cave. That convinced me he wasn't full of shit as much as anything else could possibly do without being real proof. It was one of the few things that upset him that much.

that whole debt collecting thing was something we both had come across before, and knew about.

Sometimes I wonder if he was one of the people that did the bashing.

That would have fitted with the way things were done, and who did them in that part of melbourne.

Probably a few too many details in that story, but it was a long time ago now. That was another world to the one I live in now.

I actually haven't seen that guy since early 1994.

[Spoonerian]

1968: While other New-Left leaders preach violent overthrow of the U.S. Government and creation of a Marxist dictatorship, Leary urges instead a nonviolent, drug-oriented "hippie capitalism," an artsy-craftsy, decentralized, libertarian sort of entrepeneurship that will also soon find its expression in the culture of the Grateful Dead. While Leary's position does constitute a rejection of the corporate world, it also embraces private property and the profit motive.

I always loved this about Leary. He was always a sort of rationalist old-fashioned kind of anarchist.

Leary's wife Rosemary didn't want to deal with the CIA agent who sprang them from prison in Algeria. For once Leary was on the mark. "He's liberal CIA," Leary told Rosemary. "And that's the best mafia you can deal with in the 20th century."

Leary usually was on the mark on the all important issue of the mafia state.

On planet earth, we all end up making some kind of deal with one of the mafias. What's important is that we always recognize that it is the mafia that we're dealing with. Whether its the nice kind school teacher in the little red school house or the emergency medics on the evacuation helicopter that Joe mentioned on another thread or "white hat" liberal CIA agents, we must never lose sight that its all paid for by loot stolen at gunpoint by hit men working for the government mafia.

[MASONIC PLOT]

It probably didn't work as well as they had hoped then.

Really? I think it worked and is working quite well. As I said, I believe the counter culture revolution was social re-engineering agenda manufactured by those filthy nazi doctors that they smuggled in to the US after the war (Paperclip). The objective was to glamorize street drug use, promiscuity and start a rebellion against the strong family unit that existed in this nation before the 50s. I think it worked well. American culture has been nothing but filth since. Weak, drug induced, sex craving minds are very easy to exploit and manipulate. Anyone who may have had a real counter culture voice and didnt play by their social re-engineering rules was simply murdered. After they had everyone drugged up enough and craving for more, they bankrupted the nation right under their noses by taking all the silver out of the money then introduced cocaine and crack into the equation, the hippies donned suits and started their wall street corporate theivery campaign and the inner cities became cesspools of gang violence and drug dealing, all of which eventually made it very easy to able to pull off 9-11, because everyone was too dumbed down to notice, and then begin the introduction of their new police state which will further lead to a collapse of the dollar and a north american union 4th reich. Yea, I think its working pretty well.

[Joe Hillshoist]

A lot of things came out of the psychedelic movement that changed the world IMO.

The ideas that drove the development of the network we are communicating on now.

Hippie communes, around here they have worked really well in some cases not so well in others, but for years Nimbin was a great town, influenced by all those ideas. Its was the powders and the potential for making money as the price of pot rose in the 80s that really destroyed the 60s ideals around here.

I reckon the smack and crack campaign that followed it were a reaction to the 60s, an attempt to either control or undermine the liberating aspects of the 60s.

Family's were not perfect in the 50s, far from it, in australia we had serious issues with alchohol based domestic violence and rape in marriages. The family was a strong institution, but aspects of it were really nasty and as much a form of social control as any powder epidemic.

I personally think if leary and others hadn't made so much effort to spread acid and other psychedelics tptb would have been in a situation that expressed much more control over the population.

[MASONIC PLOT]

I can understand your point of view on this, Joe. The problem is i do not see the benefits of drug use that you seem to. Drug use is never good, its never healthy and its certainly not liberating. It wastes away your brain, mostly makes you dumb and lazy and commonly makes you a weak and pathetic addict.

This of course does NOT mean all who use drugs recreationally become such, but even social recreational use of drugs, in my opinion, is unhealthy and NOT good for the brain.

Granted, one could benefit from some of the experiences of psychedelic usage, I still think overall the negatives far outweight the positives and a clean, healthy, drug free lifestyle is much more liberating and dangerous to the PTB.

[Wombaticus Rex]

^^Actually, clinical data 100% contradicts you on LSD, it is literally good for the brain and has a vast array of theraputic uses.

As for the rest, it's really more a matter of taste, unless you're talking about nitrous oxide, ecstasy, cocaine, which can literally kill off brain tissue.

[Wombaticus Rex]

And for sure -- my pothead activist friends hold the majority of their protest activity in their living room.

[MASONIC PLOT]

I dont buy that for one god damned minute that LSD is good for the brain. I know that agenda has been pushed around for a long time but I absolutely refuse to believe fucking ACID is GOOD for your brain. My uncle is still seeing fucking acid patterns and having flashbacks from his acid use in the 60s and while he preaches NOTHING but praise for the experiences he had with LSD, and it was GOOD CLEAN lsd in his days, he tells me in no uncertain terms that it did in fact PHYSICALLY FUCK HIS BRAIN up even if it did somewhat HELP his thinking and give him insight.

As for marijuana there is NO QUESTION that INHALING smoke VERY unhealthy and causes cancer, among other things, on top of the fact that 90% or more of all pot smokers are also HEAVY cigarette smokers since the two seem to go along well together. If you want to discuss cooking with marijuana as an herbal additive to your cusine I am certainly open to the suggestion that it could be beneficial in that form, but you will never sit here and justify to me that inhaling smoke into your lungs is healthy and get away unscathed.

[Telexx]

I believe the counter culture revolution was social re-engineering agenda manufactured by those filthy nazi doctors that they smuggled in to the US after the war (Paperclip). The objective was to glamorize street drug use, promiscuity and start a rebellion against the strong family unit that existed in this nation before the 50s. I think it worked well. American culture has been nothing but filth since. Weak, drug induced, sex craving minds are very easy to exploit and manipulate.

I don't buy this. I think that the 60s counter culture movement was a direct response to the oppressive nature of America in the 50s - a form of liberalism which was hedonistic because the society before it was precisely the opposite. Rebellion.

I have no doubt it was manipulated, perverted even with an agenda in mind, but I don't think it was born thus.

I think the establishment that that time were dismayed by the decay of morals in society. Strauss and Qutb were both motivated even as early as the mid-late 50s regarding that decline.

Thanks,

Telexx

[/quote]

[MASONIC PLOT]

Yes but the decay is what is helping them achieve their goals, I dont quite grasp why you would think they wouldnt put in the effort to encourage such decay and were in fact dismayed by it.

Your point is taken well though and I am reconsidering the whole thing as we speak, trying to make sense of it.

[Joe Hillshoist]

I have done a lot of drugs in my time (in case anyone hadn't guessed).

I still smoke shitloads of pot. (Tho I have actually cut right back at the current time)

Modern pot, esp if its grown hydro indoors is so strong, that in people with a genetic predisposition it WILL fuck you up, there is absolutley no question about this IMO. depression, (although the correlation btn depression and pot my not be a causal one buyt a result of self medication etc, same in many junkies) and psychosis (this probably has a direct causal relationship).

Just for the record.

Tho i dunno if its just modern pot, or any pot that will cause these issues to manifest.
but definitely as the strength has increased so has the number of young people suffering mental issues.

I never thought I'd say that, but the evidence is looking stronger every day.

Smoking ...

smoking tobacco is a lot worse for your lungs than smoking weed. Tho smoking anything is bad for them. Thats a personal opinion based on my own experience, but I think its valid. (I play footy for Nimbin, when I am smoking durries and pot my aerobic fitness is a lot less than just pot. It is really noticable.

Dunno about cancer, but emphysema is a definite result of any smoking.

5) OOPS, MARIJUANA MAY PREVENT CANCER (PART I): Federal researchers implanted several types of cancer, including leukemia and lung cancers, in mice, then treated them with cannabinoids (unique, active components found in marijuana). THC and other cannabinoids shrank tumors and increased the mice’s lifespans. Munson, AE et al. Antineoplastic Activity of Cannabinoids. Journal of the National Cancer Institute. Sept. 1975. p. 597-602.

4) OOPS, MARIJUANA MAY PREVENT CANCER, (PART II): In a 1994 study the government tried to suppress, federal researchers gave mice and rats massive doses of THC, looking for cancers or other signs of toxicity. The rodents given THC lived longer and had fewer cancers, "in a dose-dependent manner" (i.e. the more THC they got, the fewer tumors). NTP Technical Report On The Toxicology And Carcinogenesis Studies Of 1-Trans- Delta-9-Tetrahydrocannabinol, CAS No. 1972-08-3, In F344/N Rats And B6C3F(1) Mice, Gavage Studies. See also, "Medical Marijuana: Unpublished Federal Study Found THC-Treated Rats Lived Longer, Had Less Cancer," AIDS Treatment News no. 263, Jan. 17, 1997.

http://www.freetheplant.org/blog/top-10 ... er-funded/

Proof of nothing, but an interesting lead in anyway. Should be followed up IMO. there are heaps of old smokers around here and at the moment there doesn't seem any of them with lung cancer...

Shit man living in a major city is the equivalent of smoking at least 20 cigarettes a day.

Its not called ACID for nothing....

I am not saying its good for your brain, but it might be good for your thinking.

Personally I don't think organic psychedelics like DMT, psilocibin and salvinorum are bad for you. Unless you take them in excessive amounts, and again predispositions to psychosis schizophrenia and depression are probably a good reason to avoid them like the plague.

But if you want to see the effects from tptb pov.

Activists I knew in Melbourne who smoked were still effective, for the most part. but once they developed a taste for that cheap heroin....

It was all over.

I have noticed that many people start asking questions and wondering about the structure of the world re politics and power after they start choofing.

Whether they actually get out of their living room is another matter...

Sure eckies kill brain cells, but so does beer.

i think what happened in the early 90s was a huge threat to tptb.

However the threat was effectively neutralised as alchohol and coke and GHB began to replace MDMA as the drug of choice at raves.

(BTW E production and speed production are a huge envirromental problem, the toxic waste gets dumped).

Drugs are useful in liberating the hedonistic instinct that society tries to control as part of the social control thing. But they are an easy good time, and without the self discipline to get off your arse and do some serious work whatever liberation they may have provided you is wasted.

I still think overall the negatives far outweight the positives and a clean, healthy, drug free lifestyle is much more liberating and dangerous to the PTB.

This is possibly true, but a clean healthy lifestyle is promoted by tptb, and goes hand in hand with the other social control mechanisms they employ.

[Wombaticus Rex]

Yeah, obviously marijuana is bad for you, I never said it wasn't.

I'm going off clinical data -- it's just data, not conclusions, but LSD has been used to great effect both for emotional theraputic ends, and creative problem-solving. I got a great MP3 of a lecture by James Fadimon on the "rational use of psychedelics"....

....again, I'm solely arguing this about LSD, a lot of "acid" getting sold in the past 3 decades is not LSD, or it's a very poor synthesis. And, again, you're arguing out of your feelings, I'm just pointing out that there's actual research data and it contradicts your feelings.

[Wombaticus Rex]

And, no offense, but I've probably done just as much LSD as your uncle and I appear to be still intact. It has done nothing but enhance my life, and I've done it hundreds of times since I was 15.

On the other hand, I absolutely have friends who got badly fucked up by it, but they also had existing emotional problems and mental health issues.

Responsible LSD use is not dropping tabs and going to movies and concerts, you know? You know.

[MASONIC PLOT]

Oh yes, for sure, responsible use is a big part of it. I am not entirely against altering ones consciousness to gain some insight, ive spent time in sweat lodges with natives doing peyote. I do however, think one is more of a threat to the PTB when they are of sound mind, healthy body, and drug free and this is how I have tried to live my post teen years, prepareing myself to survive in extreme conditions in the event of a collapse.

Ive seen most of the clinical data you speak of and I agree it is a powerful argument, I have also seen clinical data that says it eats holes in your brain much like XTC does, of course much of it is inconclusive and there is always some sort of silly agenda behind most data anyway. You may be right, I'm open to the argument but strictly on the face of it, I would wager is probably not entirely healthy in all cases.