zionists vs. truth

[MASONIC PLOT]

Agreed, Jeff.

[nomo]

The ONLY people who have anything to gain by confounding anti-Zionism with antisemitism are Zionists. Period.

Nope. True antisemitists, like the ones Jeff mentions above, ALSO have a LOT to gain by conflating the two. It's terrifyingly easy to refer to the true suffering of Palestinians in their own lands, the horrible crimes of the Israeli state, and in the same breath plant the seed of anti-Semitism. After all, most Israelis are Jews, aren't they? And (typical right-wing rant follows) look at all the number of Jewish neo-cons, and in the entertainment industry, and in financing, and... hey lookie! they don't want us to know "9/11 truth"!!!

I agree with you that racist Zionism loves to hide behind all-too-easy anti-Semitism accusations, but you are *terribly* naive to believe (neo)Nazis today are a just harmless bunch of marginalized white dudes with greasy hair and bad teeth. To them, someone's heartfelt anti-zionism is a handy stepping stone for introducing their more insidiuos ideas.

[darkbeforedawn]

Thanks for the wonderful bafoonery nomo'brains---

Alice was trying to make the point that zionists LOVE to conflate antisemtism with antiIsrael sentiments. It gets them off the hook.
Antisemites, such as yourself who claim Jews were behind the 9-11 attacks, don't mind openly hating all jews.

As a Jew and an antizionist, I am well aware of the difference.
Real Jews have to come forward and realize supporting Israel will hurt them, perhaps even destroy them as well as a lot of other people.

Why does this insane argument about who is and who is not an "antisemite" have to go on and on?
Because nitwits such as yourself can't seem to keep their arugments straight....

[yesferatu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgSVXjNLFgo&eurl=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIo6lyP9tTE&eurl=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtATe9kAE0Q&eurl=

[Joe Hillshoist]

Why don't you come straight out and say the Jews did it?

_________________

darkbeforedawn


The Jews DID NOT do it. You are simply ludicrous crawl back into your toilet, racist



nomo


Oh, I see. No Jews. Just "zionists" and the Mossad. Gotcha.

As far as I can tell you are both saying the same thing from a different angle.

Antisemites, such as yourself who claim Jews were behind the 9-11 attacks, don't mind openly hating all jews

WTF Who said this and when?

I agree with you that racist Zionism loves to hide behind all-too-easy anti-Semitism accusations, but you are *terribly* naive to believe (neo)Nazis today are a just harmless bunch of marginalized white dudes with greasy hair and bad teeth. To them, someone's heartfelt anti-zionism is a handy stepping stone for introducing their more insidiuos ideas.

Not quite the same thing, and you are missing a very important point.

Nazism is on the rise, and so is anti semetism.

Nothing spectacular.

Just the banal everyday rubbish like I heard the other day:

"Where they are all Jewish shopkeepers ...."

WTF

That had nothing to do with the arguments on this board, just some ignorant prick letting his prejudices get the better of him.

I have heard such sentiments expressed in public in front of me, only a few times. And not for a very long time.

If people can't see this as disturbing then I dunno what planet they are on.

And for the record Jewish people can be as bigoted racist and downright nasty as everyone else. they are only human after all.

And Israel... I spose the reason the 2nd interfada started has disappeared down the memory hole as well. But the Palestinians did not start that shitfight.

Israeli settlers did.

BUT

The Nazi argument runs a little like this:

CFR

Rothchild

Communist

911 mossad

NWO

Control US admin

Control all media

Oh and btw look at the middle east

This is what they will eventually do to US.




It plays off the obvious crap in the middle east but rarely offers any real sympathy with the people in the middle east who are suffering.

Its a form of MC in itself cos it creates and controls a debate in a certain way, and people who get sucked into that debate end up trapped within the limits that the Neo Nazis have created. There is an underlying structure to it that jews are somehow evil.

It completely ignores the fact that ANY human is capable of great evil.

And plays at reigniting a European racist meme that is thousands of years old and was vital in the rise to power of Hitler.

DBD You may be Jewish, and appalled at what some people who also claim to be Jewish are doing. I know how you feel, cos despite what you think, I am appalled at what Australians have done, not just in Iraq either.

But there are people out there who make NO distinction between you and the people you are so appalled by, and all it takes is a little bit of prodding for them to show their true colours

Not necessarily here, but elsewhere.

They are manipulating the same decency that inspires you to reject the Zionist movement, in people without your cultural heritage. And it is easy for them to slowly move the focus from Zionist to Jew... while the conversation feels like it is about Zionism.

Watch carefully its subtle but its there.

BTW I haven't actually seem that on this board of late. But i think I just missed a shitfight about the holocaust.

[pitcairn]

I don't know what is up with me today, but I keep feeling this need to stick my neck out, lol

it strikes me that Alice is very clear, and she is clearly NOT some very effective, very well manicured and masqued Nazi, just cos she calls brutality brutality, and cites the indefensible as indefensible no matter who's selling

I really think that in most discussions of zionism or the role of israel, and by extension the US, in ME and elsewhere, there are only two ways to cut thro the crap

one is make a parallel, equivalent story and see how the players look, in order to avoid not relevant but always intrusive false equivalencies and name calling

the other is to go straight to the horse's mouth, Herr Hitler humself, and see what he had to say for himself about his assault on the Jewish people, very revealing

let's go crazy and try two first:

"Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows - at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example - as many as traffic allows.

"Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews." (1)

...and:

"When I now broached the question of what the source of his so strongly felt hatred for the Jews was, and why he wanted to destroy this so undeniably intelligent race - a race to which the Germans and all other Aryans, if not the entire world, owed an incalculable debt in virtually all fields of art and knowledge, research and economics - Hitler suddenly calmed down and gave this unexpectedly sober and almost dispassionate explanation:"

"It is manifestly clear and has been proven in practice and by the facts of all revolutions that a struggle for ideals, for improvements of any kind whatsoever, absolutely must be supplemented with a struggle against some social class or caste.

"My object is to create first-rate revolutionary upheavals, regardless of what methods and means I have to use in the process. Earlier revolutions were directed either against the peasants, or the nobility and the clergy, or against dynasties and their network of vassals, but in no case has revolution succeeded without the presence of a lightning rod that could conduct and channel the odium of the general masses.

"With this very thing in mind I scanned the revolutionary events of history and put the question to myself against which racial element in Germany can I unleash my propaganda of hate with the greatest prospects of success? I had to find the right kind of victim, and especially one against whom the struggle would make sense, materially speaking. I can assure you that I examined every possible and thinkable solution to this problem, and, weighing every imaginable factor, I came to the conclusion that a campaign against the Jews would be as popular as it would be successful.

"There are few Germans who have not been vexed with the behavior of Jews or else have not suffered losses through them in some way or other. Disproportionately to their small number they account for an immense share of the German national wealth, which can just as easily be put to profitable use for the state and the general public as could the holdings of the monasteries, bishops, and nobility.

"Once the hatred and the battle against the Jews have been really stirred up, their resistance will necessarily crumble in the shortest possible time. They are totally defenseless, and no one will stand up to protect them."(2)

Footnotes

1. Josef Hell, "Aufzeichnung," 1922, ZS 640, p. 5, Institute fuer Zeitgeschichte. The retired Major Josef Hell was a journalist in the twenties and in the beginning of the thirties, during which time he also collaborated with Dr. Fritz Gerlich, the editor of the weekly newspaper Der Gerade Weg, as cited in Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1984. p. 17

2. Ibid., as cited in Fleming, pp. 28-29

it seems clear that much of Hitler's choice of target was a matter of expediency, political expediency, and if the parallels to today's demonisation of the muslims aren't massively obvious to all readers, I'd be surprised

and btw, guilt by association isn't very novel, is it? like so many tried and true techniques, tho, it's a workhorse, and keeps on keeping on

end of part I

[pitcairn]

Joe,

your cautions are well noted; and nothing I say is ever intended to minimise the potential or actual devious manipulations of violent fascists, aryan brand or otherwise

but

let's try that parallel history

let's talk about ... huguenots. a very pacificist breed, huguenots, and horribly, violently persecuted

Let's say the horribly violently persecuted huguenots, the few who survived persecution, go to the New World

there they meet natives, the natives really feel for the huguenots, and try to accomodate them even when they're acting out some real PTSD, as a group

the huguenots get worried (PTSD) that maybe they won't be able to maintain against possible raids by the natives, and so start to push the natives off the land, and get very violent themselves about it (they need lebensraum, for safety)

at first the natives take it on the chin, but finally when there's practically no place left for them to go and they have been decimated and terrorised for years, they start to really fight back, guerilla style

in return they are blasted into a life out of "escape from new york" by the huguenots greater technology and firepower, and oh, also, disadvantanged by the way other nations side with the huguenots cos by now everyone knows how they (huguenots) were persecuted, but no one knows too much about how the natives have been treated by the huguenots

and anyway, other nations can "relate" to the huguenots cos they look and act like "us" and the natives don't

it's not pretty

it's not about "bad jews" or "jews are bad" AT ALL

I can't find my link for the following, but it's too spot on, I'll keep looking for the link, which I assure you is reputable and historically accurate

at one time there were many tribes living around the area now known as Mt Hood

long story short, the westward expansion of white settlers finally was about overrunning the place and altho the tribes there had already been dispossessed and decimated by disease and mistreatment, there was a last push (putsch) to settle it all by whites (natural resource hegemony the prime motivator, gee that's familiar)

now the last, mixed native band had a very noble and respected chief, and the whites worried that he might rally the native people against the whites, so they called all the natives to a "peace meeting," meaning bring no weapons (this took place mid 19th c sorry I will find the source for accurate details and post the link)

when the natives got there, unarmed, the army was there, in numbers, but all the army rifles appeared teepeed up; so things were looking okay

until the army brought out hidden arms and a single kidnapped native man; they killed the captive, chopped him up, and cooked him in front of the assembled crowd, and then tried to force all the natives, at gunpoint, to eat from the pot

what brought about such a ghastly event? the whites were scared of native retaliation for a prior white massacre of native women that occurred cos the whites assumed, from a distance, that the encamped women were men, cos they were wearing trousers, deerskin trousers, same as the native men

those whites saw thro an amazingly picayune aspect of cultural conditioning - the wearing of trousers=men, and the result was so sickening the whites were terrified afterward of a retribution some of them felt they deserved but were unwilling to suffer

it's not about jews at all, it's about the corrupting nature of power and the unwillingness to resist that corruption or even call it out when you see it

in the recent LA Times article about the Navajo and uranium, a goverment guy is quoted as basically saying it was just indians [who were poisoned] so it just doesn't matter very much

Mitterand said the same thing about genocide in Rwanda - in a place like that it doesn't matter very much

I think Alice just wants to remind us that it always matters. Very much.

[greencrow0]

Ever notice that anytime someone connects the dots between Zionists and 9/11 - the discussion ends up with accusations of anti-semitism?

Kind of like that accusation trumps [and innoculates the accused from] the evidence every time.

gc

[Joe Hillshoist]

I have never thought Alice was a Nazi.

Her posts are compassionate and intelligent and point to the very real atrocities that the Palestinian and Iraqi people suffer every day.

Alice if you or anyone else ever got the impression that I think you are part of what I described above then I am very sorry.

No way was that my intention.

it's not about "bad jews" or "jews are bad" AT ALL

No but there is a trend for Nazi orgs to use this debate as a way to insert that meme into people who would otherwise never come across it, and another trend for the Zionist orgs to play off that.

Anyone else see a link there (just noticed your post GC perhaps you have).


In this country at this time it seems the Muslims serve the same function as the Jews did for Hitler in the post you made:

I had to find the right kind of victim, and especially one against whom the struggle would make sense, materially speaking. I can assure you that I examined every possible and thinkable solution to this problem, and, weighing every imaginable factor, I came to the conclusion that a campaign against the Jews would be as popular as it would be successful.

I have noticed this for a while and so have many others.

The Aryan Nazi movement pushes a line of racial purity and the unique destiny of the white race, tied to a bizarre mix or paganism and Christianity. There's a missionary zeal about it. and it tries to place itself in a context of resistance to the NWO.

While the very real resistance to the NWO happens in places like Palestine.

Its a dangerous trend and no one will benefit from it except them.

There is no social justice. fair go for all mentality anywhere in their world view. Cept for the "white race."

Seperately, I think the Howard governments Immigration Department is negotiating settlements with ?two dozen people known to have been wrongly imprisoned and/or deported, most with mental health issues, all i think nonanglo.

That was wintler, well wintler2, his not so well know identical twin. (I assume its a he )

On this thread:

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... hp?t=10283


In my darker moments I can see some really bad things happening, not just martial law, but a govt based program of something akin to ethnic cleansing.

Dunno where I am going with this.

I guess part of my issue is with the term Zionism.

I can understand Jewish people pointing out Zioninsm as a nasty trend and exposing it. but I don't feel very comfortable when people like David Duke use it.

I have suffered Racism all my life, been bashed by the cops cos of my colour as a kid (and probably cos of my smart arsed attitude too), and I don't like trends I see below the surface of this debate.


Again nothing the posters on this thread have led me to feel they are in any way involved in this. they just call things as they see them.

But it has to be addressed.

[pitcairn]

I don't like trends I see below the surface of this debate.


Again nothing the posters on this thread have led me to feel they are in any way involved in this. they just call things as they see them.

But it has to be addressed.

I hear you, Joe, and I prolly carried over some defending (defensive) attitude on behalf of Alice (as if she needs my help ) to this thread from the one about the frog biting, so my bad on that

I was thinking, while reading this thread, about the Stormfront types and their use of their own "special mix" of european paganism (folkreligion) and Christianity as a seduction/addiction tool

as is the case with all truly successful propagandas, this too targets a "loneliness" and emptiness and exploits it; the loneliness and emptiness that result from whole cultures being divorced from ancestor memory and native earth afflicts white people as surely as anyone

it's unfortunate that there is so much cultural pressure to obliterate all engagement with genuine pre-christian european faiths; not many know the truth about these faiths, which makes it easy for some Stormfront loser to peddle a load of old cobblers and poison it well with hate, and no one the wiser

in some ways all "white" people were the original objects/subjects of missionary conversion, and it's likely their souls still feel the loss of what was their very own "observed" faith, through the subsuming mass conversions to revealed religion, usually in the form of christianity

Stormfront offers to give them their cake to eat and keep too

[Joe Hillshoist]

I just spent an hour or so at Stormfront.

now I need a shower.

And maybe a bit of disinfectant for my eyes.

[Joe Hillshoist]

it's unfortunate that there is so much cultural pressure to obliterate all engagement with genuine pre-christian european faiths; not many know the truth about these faiths, which makes it easy for some Stormfront loser to peddle a load of old cobblers and poison it well with hate, and no one the wiser

My missus is into runes in a big way.

She has a deep understanding of that northern european pre Christian tradition.

It freaks me out when I see some of the crap on stormfront and the same things referred to in her books.

but its no difference than Bush or his dad co opting God for their war on wahtever is the target this week.

[slimmouse]

This whole debate.....

Dont ya just gotta hand it to the PTB ?

Creating all this religion garbage to get brother fighting brother.

Question is.......when is Jewish/islamic/christian/sunni/shia/mormon/JW/talmudist/ etc ad infinitum brother gonna wake up to the mother of all cons ???????????

[pitcairn]

it's unfortunate that there is so much cultural pressure to obliterate all engagement with genuine pre-christian european faiths; not many know the truth about these faiths, which makes it easy for some Stormfront loser to peddle a load of old cobblers and poison it well with hate, and no one the wiser

My missus is into runes in a big way.

She has a deep understanding of that northern european pre Christian tradition.

It freaks me out when I see some of the crap on stormfront and the same things referred to in her books.

but its no difference than Bush or his dad co opting God for their war on wahtever is the target this week.

well that's it isn't it? it's all about lies and theft, at bottom

all the violence and brutality rest on a fundament of theft and lies

and it really ... confounds me, and fills me with a terrible outrage, that with all the material theft, the really big steal has been, is always, our own truths, our own art, our own symbolic language; I don't think it's for nothing that in every culture there is at least one archetypal hero who has had his birthright stolen

that hero is everyman, everywoman

one of the best of these tales is a euro folk/fairytale called Thousandfurs, a version that would have particular resonance for many who read here, I think

on edit, forgot link: http://tinyurl.com/y5wrro

[pitcairn]

This whole debate.....

Dont ya just gotta hand it to the PTB ?

Creating all this religion garbage to get brother fighting brother.

Question is.......when is Jewish/islamic/christian/sunni/shia/mormon/JW/talmudist/ etc ad infinitum brother gonna wake up to the mother of all cons ???????????

slim, the brain entrainment and indoctrination that make the con possible is examined in the most interesting way in Leonard Schlain's the Alphabet and the Goddess

if you've not read it, give it a go