Planes losing electrical power on landing approach Thread

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Postby Gouda » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:00 pm

Eight killed in Chilean plane crash

SANTIAGO, Chile (AP) -- A small police plane crashed Wednesday at a sports field in Chile's capital, killing all six aboard and two on the ground, authorities reported.

The Cessna 210 was approaching Tobolaba airport when it went down at the field in the Penalolen district, the air force reported.

Penalolen Mayor Claudio Orrego said those killed on the ground were taking part in a gymnastics class sponsored by the municipality. Five of those on the ground also were injured.

"The airplane appeared to lose power, made a sudden U-turn and fell down," a witness, Ernesto Munoz, told the state television. "There was violent fire when it crashed."

Police Gen. Jorge Rojas said the pilot apparently maneuvered the plane away from houses, avoiding a worse tragedy.

"The pilot did not have enough time for an emergency landing but still had time to take the plane away from the residential area," he said.

The cause of the crash was under investigation
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Postby Gouda » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:03 pm

CNN video report on the continuing investigation into the BA flight (arriving from Beijing China)
which lost power (the electronics shut down according to one source) on approach to the runway at Heathrow.

"...all the explanations sound very very strange and highly improbable, but it happened nevertheless."

-- Kieran Daly, editor, Air Transport Intelligence
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Postby Gouda » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:58 am

FWIW, this planes-losing-power-on-approach-to-landing thread began last year at this same time: end January/February.


Engine trouble possible cause in Dutch plane crash
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090227/ap_ ... lane_crash

Thu Feb 26, 2009

AMSTERDAM – Engine trouble may have caused the Turkish Airlines crash that killed nine people in the Netherlands, the head of the agency investigating the accident said Thursday. Other officials identified the dead as five Turks and four Americans.
...

Chief investigator Pieter van Vollenhoven said, in remarks quoted by Dutch state television NOS, that the Boeing 737-800 had fallen almost directly from the sky, which pointed toward the plane's engines having stopped. He said a reason for that had not yet been established.
...

Survivors say engine noise seemed to stop, the plane shuddered and then simply fell out of the sky tail-first. Witnesses on the ground said the plane dropped from about 300 feet (90 meters).
...

Boeing Co. said late Thursday that two of its employees were killed and third injured in the crash. Boeing previously provided the names of its four employees who were aboard the plane, but its latest statement did not specify which were killed or injured.
...

It confirmed the plane had undergone routine maintenance on Feb. 19, and that it had to delay a flight Feb. 23 to replace a faulty caution light.
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Postby Pele'sDaughter » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:48 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7923782.stm

Page last updated at 15:32 GMT, Wednesday, 4 March 2009

Investigators have said a faulty altimeter played a role in the plane crash near Amsterdam's Schiphol airport last week that killed nine people.

Dutch Safety Board chairman Pieter van Vollenhoven said the plane was landing on automatic pilot and the problem with the altimeter led to a loss of speed.

He said the aeroplane had twice before reported problems with its altimeter.



Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:41 am

I thought I saw this particular incident mentioned here, and in this thread, perhaps it was another thread, anyway I'll try and get into the spirit of this thread consolidation thing, its not strictly a case of electrical power loss on landing but anyway.

Apparantly there was an incident with a Qantas airbus, on October 7 2008 flight qf 72. A severe dive causing injury. There has been some speculation that the flight suffered interference from NW cape.

The ATSB released an interim reportsaying they don't know much the other day.

Some Australian bloggers are suggesting interference, others are suggesting component failure:

[url]On October 7th last year, several passengers and crew were seriously injured when Qantas Flight 72 decided to enter a severe dive - one dramatic enough to throw them around the cabin. The initlal culprit was identified as a faulty ADIRU unit - a gadget that provides information from the plane’s sensors to both the pilots and, crucially, the flight control system. Courtesy of the interim report of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, it’s now a bit clearer what happened. What follows is a somewhat technical examination of the issue.


Extensive testing has still not explained the ADIRU failure. The theory that it was the low-frequency, high-power radio transmissions from the Learmonth Naval Communication station hasn’t been completely ruled out, but it was always pretty dubious: the units were certified to operate correctly in the presence of much stronger radio signals than result from the Learmonth transmissions, planes have been operating for many years in Learmonth’s vicinity without incidents, and similar emissions from other high-power low frequency transmissions haven’t been reported to cause issues. The faulty ADIRU unit was also tested to see whether radio interference could reproduce the effects seen in-flight, with no success.

But as I noted at the time, the specific reason the ADIRU failed was far less important than why why a single faulty component was able to cause a plane to misbehave to such an extent. The interim report explains the problem in some detail.

The Airbus A330, like all Airbus airliners and more recent Boeing models, is fly-by-wire - the pilot’s stick movements, and the sensor data, are fed into flight control computers that determine what the bits of the aircraft that move - ailerons, flaps, rudder, and tail - actually do. Some of that sensor data comes through the ADIRU units; each ADIRU processes the data from a different set of sensors, and the three ADIRUs feed their data to the flight control computer (which in itself has redundant backups, but they don’t come into play here).

But what if one of the ADIRU units starts malfunctioning, and providing “rubbish” information to the flight computer?

For most pieces of information, if an ADIRU or the attached sensor breaks, the system will notice that the value is radically different to the other redundant sensors and ignores the rubbish value. But for angle of attack, this approach isn’t ideal, because there are situations where you’d expect, in normal operation, for different sensors to report different readings. So a different method was used for the angle of attack data.

In a nutshell, if an ADIRU generates an obviously incorrect angle of attack data for an instant, the flight control computer uses the last known good value it had, over a period of 1.2 seconds. If the ADIRU misbehaves continuously for a second or more, the flight computer concludes “Hang on, you’re faulty”, and will ignore anything it says for the rest of the flight.

But there’s another, rather diabolical possibility. What if the ADIRU (or angle of attack sensor) goes haywire for, say, half a second, starts working again for half a second, then misbehaves for another half-second or so? The ADIRU doesn’t misbehave long enough for the flight computer to disconnect it. But it can’t keep using the old value. So it calculates a new value based on the misbehaving ADIRU.

The end result, unfortunately, was a plane that thought it was pointing its nose somewhere towards the Moon when it was actually flying straight and level. The dive was its attempt to correct itself.

Nasty as it was, A330s are not in danger of crashing due to this design flaw, if I understand the report correctly. The automatic system that pushed the nose down only operates at cruising speeds and at high altitudes. Nevertheless, it is a serious flaw, and the report indicates that Airbus will be modifying the flight control software so as to avoid this situation repeating itself.

From my professional perspective (as an academic who specializes in testing computer software), the real question is why this problem wasn’t picked up before an A330 ever flew. Aircraft manufacturers take design checking and testing more seriously than just about anyone. The report doesn’t go into this question. To be fair, the A330 flight control software was written nearly 20 years ago, so the software quality assurance procedures used then were probably considerably less advanced than those used today. But Airbus (and Boeing) will undoubtedly be thinking hard about their review and testing procedures, to figure out if the same design flaw would be picked up today - before it made it into an aircraft carrying paying passengers.[/url]

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/09/why-qf72-developed-a-mind-of-its-own/#more-8025
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:46 am

This is Ben Sandilands take on the possibility of Interfernence from NW Cape, linked above. Crikey is a reasonable blog, as is LP, above. Both pretty "progressive" tho in typical us parlance:

The A330 issues. More cases, some progress, and lingering doubts about electromagnetic interference
March 6, 2009 – 5:38 pm, by Ben Sandilands
As reported earlier, the ATSB has ordered new tests to determine if electromagnetic inference from military installations near Learmonth in WA is a possible cause of serious incidents involving Qantas A330s.

The interim factual report issued today also reveals two more failures in the Air Data Inertial Reference Units or ADIRUs used in Qantas A330s, one of them previously unreported, as well as failure in a unit in a Jetstar A330 made by the same manufacturer but with some internal differences.

The ATSB, with the help of its US and French counterparts and Airbus, have also made considerable progress in identifying issues which could have caused the known issue of false data ’spikes’ from ADIRUs defeating the in-built error protection logic of the aircraft’s control system, causing it to dive in response to a false angle of attack reading.

The interim factual report into the QF 72 accident on 7 October reveals for the first time that the jet involved, VH-QPA, experienced a similar failure of its No 1 ADIRU on 12 September 2006, while flying from Hong Kong to Perth.

However there was no ‘upset’ like the set of violent dives that injured a total of 103 people in the QF 72 incident, 12 of them seriously.

And while the ATSB had previously noted a similar incident, again with no serious consequences, in another Qantas A330, VH-QPG on 27 December, it also reveals that on 7 February a Jetstar A330, VH-EBC , flying from Sydney to Saigon, experienced a brief issue with a similar but not identical ADIRU unit.

The three Qantas A330 incidents are located on the map below in relation to Learmonth, which is near the very low frequency transmitters of the Harold E Holt Naval communications station, and also a high frequency facility on the North West Cape.



The distances from Learmonth in these incidents varied between 3,250 kilometres for the Jetstar flight, down to 980 kilometres on the 12 September 2006 flight, 700 kilometres on the 27 December 2008 flight and 170 kilometres in the case of very serious upset affected QF 72 on 7 October 2008.

The ATSB report discusses at length the electromagnetic resistance tests the Airbus ADIRUs had to pass for certification in both the US and Europe, and the feeble strength of transmissions from both the HF and VLF transmitters near Learmonth.

It also says that Qantas operated 9149 A330 flights in 2008, or which 19% came within 1500 kilometres of Learmonth, while many flights by the type also took place throughout Australian airspace for other airlines.

Nevertheless more examination of the ways electromagnetic interference could have been experienced by the Qantas flights are to be made.

The ADIRUs found in the Qantas A330 are also installed in 397 of the 900 or so Airbus A330s and similarly sized A340s now in service. Different ADIRUs are installed in other Airbus models.

Airbus is also reported by the ATSB as working on the development of more ‘robust’ algorithms to replace those unique to some of its A330s and A340s.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:37 pm

Another crash, this tie on take off. Dunno if it lost power but it did appear to catch fire.

Eleven dead as plane crashes in Uganda

Soviet-era jet caught fire and crashed into Lake Victoria on Monday after taking off from Uganda's main airport, killing 11 people, including three top Burundi army officers, officials said.

The burning Ilyushin 76 plunged into the nearby lake as it left for the Somali capital of Mogadishu at dawn.

Uganda's Information Minister, Kabakumba Masiko, said three Burundians, two Ugandans, one Indian and a South African as well as a crew of four were on board.

Russian media reported two Russian and two Ukrainian crew members were among those killed.


http://mywestnet.com.au/news/article.aspx?article=11523
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Postby Penguin » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:15 pm

Airbus is also reported by the ATSB as working on the development of more ‘robust’ algorithms to replace those unique to some of its A330s and A340s.


Hee hee....

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/r ... on-ki.html

Robot cannon kills

So much for robust algorithms... :twisted:
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Postby psynapz » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:21 am

winston smith wrote:reminds me of this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7188468.stm

the salient point being: "Amongst those killed were special forces crew and 25 senior members of Northern Ireland's intelligence community."
[...]
But you never know. Its unusual to have so many senior people on one helicopter.

Of course there are more exciting theories:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/07/10 ... ne_caused/


And now, from Cryptogon today:

Kevin at Cryptogon wrote:Is it a Coincidence that this pot is being stirred up as the question of whether or not to deploy British special forces/intelligence units was weighing heavy over the region lately? I don’t know. If this seems like sarcasm, it isn’t. In all seriousness, I don’t know. But I guess the matter is decided now.
The usual questions, “Who benefits?” and “Why now?” are good ones to be asking.


Dunno, could be related...could just be the VHF white noise talking to me where the GE-Disney-All-Seeing-Eye news used to be... but worth juxtaposing anyway.
“blunting the idealism of youth is a national security project” - Hugh Manatee Wins
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Postby Gouda » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:37 am

Another with a little problem on landing. A bit odd this one, meriting a double-take:


FAA: 14 people, 7 kids, die in Mont. plane crash

BUTTE, Mont. – A single engine turboprop airplane nose-dived into a cemetery as it approached the Butte airport Sunday afternoon, killing 14 people aboard, a federal official said...Byrd said the death toll included seven adults and seven children.
...

The plane was believed to be taking its occupants on a ski trip to Montana.
...

The aircraft crashed and burned at Holy Cross Cemetery, 500 feet short of Bert Mooney Airport in Butte, said FAA spokesman Mike Fergus.
...

The aircraft had departed from Oroville, Calif., and the pilot had filed a flight plan showing a destination of Bozeman, about 85 miles southeast of Butte. But the pilot canceled his flight plan at some point and headed for Butte, Fergus said.
...

Dipasquale said people who were fueling their cars said they saw the plane flying low, begin a turn, start to wobble and then slam into the ground.
...

In Oroville, Calif., Tom Hagler said he saw a group of about a dozen children and four adults Sunday morning at the Oroville Municipal Airport, about 70 miles north of Sacramento.

Hagler, owner of Table Mountain Aviation, described the children as ranging from about 6- to 10 year olds. He let the children into his building to use the restroom.

"There were a lot of kids in the group," he said. "A lot of really cute kids."
...

The pilot didn't file a flight plan at the Oroville airport.

Image

********


Crash witness Steven Guidoni, retired military, speaking to KTVQ:

"The policeman showed up and told me it was a crime scene and asked me to leave so I got out of there."


Is that standard for any plane crash?
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Postby justdrew » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:58 am

Gouda wrote:Another with a little problem on landing. A bit odd this one, meriting a double-take:


that many people on that plane is nuts, there probably wasn't even seats for everyone. It had to have been way over load and the pilot must have known that. Probably he just didn't want to turn the customers away, probably had to make his lease payment.

unfortunate the kids were let anywhere near that plane. parents, research the plane specs before bundling your kids on tramp freighters of the air. :cry:

of course, they should have been able to trust the pilot, but he trusted himself to be able to handle it and so everyone's trust was mis-placed.

also - "recent regulatory changes in the US now permit single-engine turboprops to be used as for airline passenger service"
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Postby 82_28 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:22 am

that many people on that plane is nuts, there probably wasn't even seats for everyone. It had to have been way over load and the pilot must have known that. Probably he just didn't want to turn the customers away, probably had to make his lease payment.


My thoughts exactly. But why the news of the "kids" so far? I've never seen a story of a plane crash where the news of the victims comes out so fast and that being fast as in kids being the predominant victims. Every headline I've seen is essentially: OF THE 17 DEAD THERE WERE CHILDREN ABOARD AS WELL. But it looks like on first glance: 17 CHILDREN DEAD IN MONTANA PLANE CRASH. I dunno. I think it's strange somewhat.
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Postby 82_28 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:26 am

If a plane crashes on the border of Canada and America, where do they bury the survivors?
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Postby Gouda » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:36 am

The pilot did not file a flight plan for the last leg of the flight and diverted 85 miles northwest from the original plan (destination Bozeman) to Butte.

Added on edit: Reports are now saying the diversion may have been due to weather conditions. Yet why didn't the pilot file a flight plan for the last fatal leg?

***

Deleted on edit: the previously posted story (deleted) on the obviously unrelated explosion in downtown Bozeman was from March 5th, not yesterday morning. Slow down, Gouda.
Last edited by Gouda on Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gouda » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:55 am

that many people on that plane is nuts,

Yes, could be something to that, thus the "crime scene":

Crashed Butte plane popular for regional flights

http://www.montanasnewsstation.com/Glob ... =menu227_4

The PC-12 can be set up in a variety of configurations, and even used to handle a cargo load. But, generally it's used for passenger service and typically seats six-to-nine passengers plus one or two pilots. It is certified to carry up to 12-people.

But some reports have said that among the killed were children 4, 6, 8 years old. One witness said he saw "babies" among the wreckage, and only one adult. Are we talking about a carrying capacity of up to 12 adults?

***

In other Montana crash and explosion news, a few days ago:

Plane wreckage found, pilot killed

http://www.abcmontana.com/news/state/41539682.html

Story Updated: Mar 19, 2009 at 7:00 PM MDT

HELENA - A search team from Malmstrom Air Force Base found the wreckage of an airplane that went missing on a flight from Bozeman to Helena.

State Department of Transportation officials say the pilot, Sparky Imeson, was killed in the crash. Searchers located the wreckage at 9:45 a.m., about 2.5 miles southwest of the Canyon Ferry airstrip.

Imeson took off from the Bozeman airport at 2:11 p.m. Tuesday, and did not arrive in Helena as expected. A rancher reported seeing a white plane in the Kimber Gulch, Beaver Creek area, west of Canyon Ferry Lake, between 2:30 p.m. and 3 p.m. Tuesday, narrowing the search.
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